Slightly different footage of Senna's crash...
Discussion
This footage I found on Youtube is 'cut' slightly less than any other footage I'd previously seen, and also has a clearer view of the cockpit.
If Senna "made a mistake" can it be explained why the steering wheel (noticable by the yellow button on the steering wheel for clarity/reference) appears to come towards Senna, as if he were removing the steering wheel, i.e pulling the wheel towards him at the precise moment the car begins to change direction?
If you watch the in-car footage from 3.14 he does not move his head forward anywhere near as much as in the moment I've described above, even under heavy braking/sharp left bends. His head/crash helmet is not visible at any other time (except in rear-view mirror).
If Senna "made a mistake" why did he appear to look down in the cockpit in the instant the steering wheel came towards him? Drivers never normally do that. The same question arises that If he had a puncture, why would he look down?
The key moment(s) I refer to are at the 4.0-4.05 mark...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYh3RLEzQlI
The yellow button mounted on the steering wheel (to the right of Senna's left thumb) clearly comes towards Senna as if he has in effect 'pulled' the steering wheel towards him, in the same way a driver would pull the steering wheel off the steering column prior to vacating the car.
I watched it several times as it is easy to miss.
What is also clear (if paused at the right moment) is that there is no left lock/steering input applied (visible by the wheels being straight ahead still) as the car leaves the tarmac and heads towards the wall.
I realise this isn't the most pleasant topic, but this footage is new to me and possibly to many other people, and I thought it relevant enough to merit a new topic.
Finally, I realise there was an 'official' investigation etc etc but it was vague on actual evidence, but more a conclusion based on opinion. This footage I feel may not explain a lot, but the wheel 'movement' towards Senna is not something I've seen or read about before.
If Senna "made a mistake" can it be explained why the steering wheel (noticable by the yellow button on the steering wheel for clarity/reference) appears to come towards Senna, as if he were removing the steering wheel, i.e pulling the wheel towards him at the precise moment the car begins to change direction?
If you watch the in-car footage from 3.14 he does not move his head forward anywhere near as much as in the moment I've described above, even under heavy braking/sharp left bends. His head/crash helmet is not visible at any other time (except in rear-view mirror).
If Senna "made a mistake" why did he appear to look down in the cockpit in the instant the steering wheel came towards him? Drivers never normally do that. The same question arises that If he had a puncture, why would he look down?
The key moment(s) I refer to are at the 4.0-4.05 mark...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYh3RLEzQlI
The yellow button mounted on the steering wheel (to the right of Senna's left thumb) clearly comes towards Senna as if he has in effect 'pulled' the steering wheel towards him, in the same way a driver would pull the steering wheel off the steering column prior to vacating the car.
I watched it several times as it is easy to miss.
What is also clear (if paused at the right moment) is that there is no left lock/steering input applied (visible by the wheels being straight ahead still) as the car leaves the tarmac and heads towards the wall.
I realise this isn't the most pleasant topic, but this footage is new to me and possibly to many other people, and I thought it relevant enough to merit a new topic.
Finally, I realise there was an 'official' investigation etc etc but it was vague on actual evidence, but more a conclusion based on opinion. This footage I feel may not explain a lot, but the wheel 'movement' towards Senna is not something I've seen or read about before.
stemll said:
I think it's just when the angle of the daylight changes. When the light is on the button it appears closer (look around 3:41) but when the light is in shadow, it looks deeper into the cockpit so no, I don't think the wheel moved towards him
Really?I agree with you about a different part of the circuit will mean the shadow/light is different, but have you looked at how the steering wheel moves towards him at the point I mentioned?
Edited by BlimeyCharlie on Saturday 7th January 23:02
Eric Mc said:
It always looked like an error to me. The car was bucking, hopping and bottoming all the way around the Tamburello - as remarked by Damon Hill as witnessed it all as he followed through that corner.
The early version of the FW16 was a total pig compared to the 1993 FW15 - which had been fitted with lots of electronic gizmos and which were removed for 1994. The fact that everyone had crawled around behind the so called "Safety Car" for quite a few laps had made its handling even worse. Senna himself was on the radio all through the safety car period warning that they were running too slow and they were losing tyre temperature and pressure.
It took until well into 1994 before the FW16 started running properly.
I'll leave it there because the Sennistas will never believe that their hero could make mistakes..
All you've done is wheel out your opinion that Senna made a mistake, which you are entitled to.The early version of the FW16 was a total pig compared to the 1993 FW15 - which had been fitted with lots of electronic gizmos and which were removed for 1994. The fact that everyone had crawled around behind the so called "Safety Car" for quite a few laps had made its handling even worse. Senna himself was on the radio all through the safety car period warning that they were running too slow and they were losing tyre temperature and pressure.
It took until well into 1994 before the FW16 started running properly.
I'll leave it there because the Sennistas will never believe that their hero could make mistakes..
What I'd like you to do is show me where/how he made a mistake.
Mr_Thyroid said:
The reason he appears to look down is before he loses control he is straining the muscles on the left side of his neck against the G-force from making the turn. When he 'loses control' the car heads in a much straighter direction, the G-force diminishes and so his muscles pull his head to the left and more of his helmet can be seen in the mirror.
At last!Somebody has actually looked at the Youtube video posted at the beginning of this topic. Thanks for looking and commenting.
I can see where you are coming from, but what about the steering wheel coming towards him?
Eric Mc said:
BlimeyCharlie said:
Eric Mc said:
It always looked like an error to me. The car was bucking, hopping and bottoming all the way around the Tamburello - as remarked by Damon Hill as witnessed it all as he followed through that corner.
The early version of the FW16 was a total pig compared to the 1993 FW15 - which had been fitted with lots of electronic gizmos and which were removed for 1994. The fact that everyone had crawled around behind the so called "Safety Car" for quite a few laps had made its handling even worse. Senna himself was on the radio all through the safety car period warning that they were running too slow and they were losing tyre temperature and pressure.
It took until well into 1994 before the FW16 started running properly.
I'll leave it there because the Sennistas will never believe that their hero could make mistakes..
All you've done is wheel out your opinion that Senna made a mistake, which you are entitled to.The early version of the FW16 was a total pig compared to the 1993 FW15 - which had been fitted with lots of electronic gizmos and which were removed for 1994. The fact that everyone had crawled around behind the so called "Safety Car" for quite a few laps had made its handling even worse. Senna himself was on the radio all through the safety car period warning that they were running too slow and they were losing tyre temperature and pressure.
It took until well into 1994 before the FW16 started running properly.
I'll leave it there because the Sennistas will never believe that their hero could make mistakes..
What I'd like you to do is show me where/how he made a mistake.
0
There is absolutely no need to invoke any sort of structural problem with the steering wheel or column. The dynamics of taking that corner at that speed in that car were enough to take it off the road - no matter who was driving at the time.
You say "Senna tried to correct" in relation to the the car bottoming out in Tamburello. Can you show me how he tried to correct? If not, how can you say that it was Senna's fault?
If you look into this you'll see that the lap previously he took the corner (without mishap) faster than on the lap he died. How do you explain that, given that on that lap, the tyres would not have been as 'hot' and several kilos of fuel extra on board?
I'm not 'invoking' any sort of structural problem with the steering column. I'm asking you (and anyone else) to comment on what they see in the Youtube video.
It really is as simple as view the footage, then comment.
Edited by BlimeyCharlie on Sunday 8th January 21:41
hora said:
The steering column had been chopped and welded in the night before the race. Post crash it was sheered off.
Hence why the Williams team faced manslaughter charges for weeks after the incident. I'm sure upto a year later they were going to avoid the race until it was 'resolved'?
Is my memory right? I followed it religiously.
I think (my opinion based on memory) is that Williams faced the manslaughter charges because 'they' were the constructor. The Law in Italy is thus, see Rindt and Lotus etc.Hence why the Williams team faced manslaughter charges for weeks after the incident. I'm sure upto a year later they were going to avoid the race until it was 'resolved'?
Is my memory right? I followed it religiously.
Eric Mc said:
BlimeyCharlie said:
Eric Mc said:
It always looked like an error to me. The car was bucking, hopping and bottoming all the way around the Tamburello - as remarked by Damon Hill as witnessed it all as he followed through that corner.
The early version of the FW16 was a total pig compared to the 1993 FW15 - which had been fitted with lots of electronic gizmos and which were removed for 1994. The fact that everyone had crawled around behind the so called "Safety Car" for quite a few laps had made its handling even worse. Senna himself was on the radio all through the safety car period warning that they were running too slow and they were losing tyre temperature and pressure.
It took until well into 1994 before the FW16 started running properly.
I'll leave it there because the Sennistas will never believe that their hero could make mistakes..
All you've done is wheel out your opinion that Senna made a mistake, which you are entitled to.The early version of the FW16 was a total pig compared to the 1993 FW15 - which had been fitted with lots of electronic gizmos and which were removed for 1994. The fact that everyone had crawled around behind the so called "Safety Car" for quite a few laps had made its handling even worse. Senna himself was on the radio all through the safety car period warning that they were running too slow and they were losing tyre temperature and pressure.
It took until well into 1994 before the FW16 started running properly.
I'll leave it there because the Sennistas will never believe that their hero could make mistakes..
What I'd like you to do is show me where/how he made a mistake.
0
There is absolutely no need to invoke any sort of structural problem with the steering wheel or column. The dynamics of taking that corner at that speed in that car were enough to take it off the road - no matter who was driving at the time.
A car leaving the track with (apparently) no left lock being required of the driver (on a left hand bend) is odd? Or is that a continuation of Senna making a mistake?
It would seem seem you are suggesting that Senna made a mistake, then 'forgot' how to turn the steering wheel.
Or was the car still 'bottoming out'? In which case the driver (Senna) would be trying to apply left lock, but the car would understeer off the road.
What we have in the video is a car leaving the road with no 'request' from the driver to make it turn left. Is that fact or opinion?
Not looked at this topic for several weeks, and the original video I linked to has been deleted.
But here is another one, highlighting the yellow button on the steering wheel.
It is in slow motion.
Can the people who claim Senna lost control due to an error on his part suggest why/what is going on with the steering at the point the car begins to spear off the track, and also why does he appear to look down into the footwell? My observation I made originally was the steering wheel appears to come towards Senna, and then moves his head forward and down to the left as if he is looking into the footwell.
Drivers don't normally do that.
Slow motion footage here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-J22HNdcb0
But here is another one, highlighting the yellow button on the steering wheel.
It is in slow motion.
Can the people who claim Senna lost control due to an error on his part suggest why/what is going on with the steering at the point the car begins to spear off the track, and also why does he appear to look down into the footwell? My observation I made originally was the steering wheel appears to come towards Senna, and then moves his head forward and down to the left as if he is looking into the footwell.
Drivers don't normally do that.
Slow motion footage here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-J22HNdcb0
I'm normally keen on Nigel Roebuck and his thoughts, but this is garbage.
He is only able to speculate, but in doing so, citing tyre pressures, means he has overlooked the obvious, which is where I can't forgive his bland conclusion, in that the cars had already been racing for a whole lap, so tyre pressures surely are out the window as they'd already done a lap at full speed..
Brundle is sitting on the fence, which is at odds with his normal persona.
Things get interesting when Berger speaks, and Piquet's input is even more interesting, given his accident there in 1987 (i think) which was not a driver fault.
In this footage there is in-car stuff right at the end. Have a look at Youtube comments where people seem to understand things better.
Hill is the only F1 driver (a Williams employee remember?) who seems to think Senna just 'lost' control.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtvBhRTYrZ8
He is only able to speculate, but in doing so, citing tyre pressures, means he has overlooked the obvious, which is where I can't forgive his bland conclusion, in that the cars had already been racing for a whole lap, so tyre pressures surely are out the window as they'd already done a lap at full speed..
Brundle is sitting on the fence, which is at odds with his normal persona.
Things get interesting when Berger speaks, and Piquet's input is even more interesting, given his accident there in 1987 (i think) which was not a driver fault.
In this footage there is in-car stuff right at the end. Have a look at Youtube comments where people seem to understand things better.
Hill is the only F1 driver (a Williams employee remember?) who seems to think Senna just 'lost' control.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtvBhRTYrZ8
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