Best hot hatches - votes and nominations please

[300bhp/ton]

The Piston Heads forum users Best Hot Hatches 2012

Please can you nominate a maximum of 5 or less of your all time favourite/greatest hot hatches and if possible why you think that they are.

Rules:

• It must be a hatch, no saloons, no coupes and it needs to have an upright'ish rear hatch, so "coupes" like an Integra Type R won't count, nor will a Sierra Cosworth. Typically anything that would be considered A thru C in the Euro Car Segment classifications

• Be model specific! If you simply say Golf GTI, then I'll either ignore your choice or decide which version to apply the vote too.

• Any driven wheels

• Any engine configuration

• Any engine location

• Must be/have been a production car that could actually be bought

CLOSING DATE FOR NOMINATIONS IS: Tuesday 14th August 2012


Thanks in advanced and lets get those nominations coming in




EDIT: I really want to keep this simple. We all have views on what is/isn't a hot hatch. But the criteria above is fairly robust. If you truly don't think a certain vehicle is a hot hatch, then please don't vote for it, just pick another that still meets the criteria. Thank you.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 2nd August 14:57

[300bhp/ton]

manitou said:

crostonian said:

maturin23 said:

Sierra Cosworth gets my vote.

Have you read the OP's post?

Mine would be Alfa 145 Cloverleaf, first series with tubular manifold.

sierra cosworth is a 3dr hatch its the sapphire cosworth that wouldnt count

Try reading the OP....

[300bhp/ton]

roystinho said:

I think it depends on how you classify 'best'

From the op

300bhp/ton said:

your all time favourite/greatest hot hatches

Think of it as your personal choice, best of breed kind of thing.

[300bhp/ton]

CampDavid said:

Quite. That's why I went with the SR71 Blackbird

What a shame it only has a hatchm, rather than a hatchback though

[300bhp/ton]

I think the Escort Cosworth is fully acceptable as a hot hatch, it's based on an Escort body (albeit different under the skin). Also not forgetting Ford also produced the RS2000 variant.

[300bhp/ton]

rohrl said:

fk the rules, we all know what a hot hatch is really and it's not a homologation special rally car or a BMW M-Coupe, even if they are hot and do have a hatch.

So how would you define a hot hatch? I've laid out what I think counts and it's what I'll use. To justify why I'll explain.

1. I wanted vehicles like the Lotus Sunbeam to be eligable - it's RWD. The 130i is also a hot rwd hatch, it's no different than a current Golf, in price and market placement only the driven wheels.

2. Cars such as the Golf 4Motion, R32 and Pulsar GTiR are all worthy hot hatches, so you can't simply say no 4wd. Someone might want to nominate something really oddball like a Subaru Justy too...

3. A Clio V6 is still 100% a hatchback, but it's RWD and mid engined, I wanted a hatch like this to be included as it is the pinnacle of what can be attained with a hatchback and certainly deserves a place somewhere in a Best hot hatch list. It also wasn't a rally holomigation car but a production road car through and through.

4. You can't not allow the Escort Cosworth to be included based on shape or angle of the rear hatch, if you did you'd also have to exclude an XR3i or RS Turbo. That's just be plain bonkers! The RS2000 and Costworth fit the Euro Car segment classifications and both were proper production models above and beyond just rally homoligation.

6. Something like the Metro 6R4 I'm still debating about. It is indeed an awesome car, but it was built purely for rallying and the ones "sold" where pretty much all bought for competition use and it was only built in very limited numbers (was it 250 or so?). Whereas something like the Nissan Pulsar GTiR was built in volume (5000+) far more than was dictated by WRC regs. It really was a proper show room available car.

[300bhp/ton]

rohrl said:

I know it's your thread but you're wrong. The EsCos competed against early Imprezas and Evos, a class apart from Golfs, Clios etc. which are hot hatches.

On that basis you'd also have to say no the Focus RS then. And no Focus RS would mean no Focus ST or ST170. You can't exclude singular cars, you need wider scoping rules that define yes or no.

The Escort as a model MK3 to end of production run was the correct Euro Car Segment. The Cosworth was a proper model available from 92-96 with over 7000 examples being built. I don't see that just because it was rallied why you think it's not aloud?

Many other cars used shorten, lengthened or modified platforms from others cars.

[300bhp/ton]

CampDavid said:

Clueless.

The Golf GTI is commonly seen as the father of the hot hatch. Back in the day VW took a normal Golf, flared it's wheel arches and gave it a bit more power. It was a basic hatchback (that's where the hatch bit comes in) with added pep (that's the hot bit)

Taking this phylosohpy forward, a hot hatch is a normal car with a bit of pep. A 135i or RS3 could be considered at the extreme end, while the Polo GTI is close to the original phylosophy. An Octavia VRs subsribes so could also be considered a hot hatch despite being a 4 dooor while an Escort Cosworth isn't as it's obviously a bit more than a simple shopping car with a slightly bigger donkey in the front.

Why be insulting? You could always start your own thread instead if you want.

So based on the above where would a Golf 4Motion or R32 fit in? How about the current Golf GTI or R?

And while we're at it the Pulsar GTiR and the 206 GT.


If you are really so fussed about this write rule that can be applied universally rather than "I don't want that specifc car included"?

I'm quite happy to listen if you can actually come up with a rule or definition that is usable.

[300bhp/ton]

rohrl said:

How about the rule (if indeed it's possible to have one) be that a hot hatch must be a bigger-engined version of a range which includes small-engined non-performance models? No homologation specials, no rally-reps.

So you are quite happy to ignore the fact that they built nearly 7200 of these, despite the fact only 500 or so were for homoligation? That rather sounds like a model not just a special to me.

As for rally reps, come on....

That would boarded on not allowing cars like these:






Most cars have competed in some form of motorsport, be it rally or circuit racing. And more often than not a production model has formed the homoligation basis.

If you want a rule, it needs to be applied universally, not just cherry picking based on your personal want to include/exclude a specific car.


However it's a peoples choice, others have voted for the Escort - if you don't want to - don't

[300bhp/ton]

rohrl said:

Escort Cosworth - not really part of the Escort range.

Erm yes it was, hence the name and the bodywork and looks. What part of the Ford range would you say it was part of if not the Escort? Fiesta maybe or KA?

rohrl said:

It's a shortened Sierra floorpan with a comedy Escort-a-like bodyshell on top.

So you'd call it a saloon then?

But wait, a MK5 Golf floorpan also underpins the Touran, the Caddy and the Jetta. So are you saying your rule is a floorpan must be unique to the hatchback? That's make the Golf a van, a crossover SUV and a saloon. So we'd have to wave bye bye to the Golf. But we aren't going to do this because that'd be silly.

rohrl said:

I can't help it if you want to call things which aren't hot-hatches hot-hatches can I?

So what would you call it, and no not rally rep or homoligation special. Because the majority weren't built for this purpose and rally rep does not describe the vehicle at all. I mean is it a hatchback, a saloon, a coupe, a convertible? Is it slow, fast, hot, cooking, luxury?

rohrl said:

I'm just saying that the term hot-hatch has been around for more than twenty-five years now and is generally well understood not to include rally-replicas but to mean stuff like Golfs, Clios, the Fiat Strada 130s, Civics, Fiat Uno etc.

Umm but then we're back to things like this again:




Would you really want to say current shape Impreza hatch doesn't count, or that you couldn't vote for an Astra/Kadet because it was rallied?

[300bhp/ton]

rb5er said:

So if basically anything that has a hatch is allowed then this is a winning list:

Escort Cosworth
Sierra Cosworth
Impreza Cosworth
Integrale Evo2
DC2 ITR

But I think everyone knows none of these should be classed as hot hatches.

You could try reading the op instead of being a difficult

1. Try here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_Car_Segment And see what classes A, B & C are
2. Read the op again - all of the words

[300bhp/ton]

iva cosworth said:

There is a difference between a car built for rally homologation and a car

that someone decided to rally eg the Golf above.

This isn't going well

But how do you define it as a rule that you can apply universally?

You can't say "no Escort Cosworth!" That isn't a rule that's singling out and treating it differently to all else.

As I said earlier, how about a Peugeot 206 GT, a mundane hot hatch built 100% specifically for homoligation purposes. Would you really, honestly say you couldn't vote for one if you wanted too?

And what about the 15,000+ Nissan Pulsar GTiR's. Are these the same as the Escort or more similar to a Golf R32?

Write me a rule that deals with all of these situations [n]fairly[/b] and I'll honestly considered it.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Tuesday 31st July 17:11

[300bhp/ton]

iva cosworth said:

There is a difference between a car built for rally homologation and a car

that someone decided to rally eg the Golf above.

This isn't going well

But how do you define it as a rule that you can apply universally?

You can't say "no Escort Cosworth!" That isn't a rule that's singling out and treating it differently to all else.

As I said earlier, how about a Peugeot 206 GT, a mundane hot hatch built 100% specifically for homoligation purposes. Would you really, honestly say you vote for one if you wanted too?

And what about the 15,000+ Nissan Pulsar GTiR's. Are these the same as the Escort or more similar to a Golf R32?

Write me a rule that deals with all of these situations fairly and I'll honestly considered it.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Tuesday 31st July 17:11

[300bhp/ton]

rb5er said:

Read the op thanks. It seems you want everyone to only list cars you think are hot hatches and yet you do not know what one is even though everyone is telling you that you are wrong.

Here's an idea count how many people have so far voted for the Escort Cosworth, Integrale or GTiR. It would seem quite a lot and only 2 or 3 (a minority like you) are actually complaining

[300bhp/ton]

Tricky 80 said:

To me "Hot Hatch" is just a 'coined' phrase, it's a hatchback thats sporty.

These are the categories;

1. Hatchback
2. Saloon
3. Estate
4. Coupe
5. Van

Simples, escort cosworth goes in (as it's got a hatch back) Sierra cosworth don't (as it's got a fat arse)

6R4 metro, Delta S4 and RS200 shouldn't go in because I doubt many people have driven one or even sat in one, let alone tried to live with it as an everyday car and that is the principle of "Hot Hatch" Correct ?

Bingo!

[300bhp/ton]

rohrl said:

300bhp/ton said:

But how do you define it as a rule that you can apply universally?

Write me a rule that deals with all of these situations fairly and I'll honestly consider it.

Why are you so hung up on universal rules? Do you need a rule to tell you not to eat dog food or to try and wear your living room curtains to work?

Equally why are you so hung up on one single car being included in a just a bit of fun thing on an internet forum. You don't want the Escort - don't vote for it. If that's too much of a problem just don't vote/post at all.

[300bhp/ton]

sday12 said:

How can the Escort Cosworth count and not the Sierra Cosworth?

They both have hatches and are on the same chassis FFS!

I'm amazed how people struggle with this.

1. They are not the same chassis The Escort is a different length for starters. Also a monoque uses parts of the body and shape as the chassis. Neither of these cars are ladder chassis vehicles. The Escort might use a modified or evolution of the Sierra platform, but that's it, it is not running a 100% Sierra chassis, nothing does apart from Sierra's.

2. It's about the vehicle class size (It's in the OP ). A, B & C. The Escort is class C, while the Sierra is class D the same as a Mondeo or Caviler.


For example, a Triumph Herald saloon uses the same chassis, quite literally as a Triumph GT6. Using your example above, would you then say the GT6 is indeed a saloon car and not a sports car? No. So why would you want to apply a different logic to the Sierra/Escort Cosworths?

[300bhp/ton]

900T-R said:

Technically, it's a shortened Sierra floorpan welded into an Escort bodyshell.

Technically the floor pan is not the chassis. The entire structure, being the roof and A, B and C pillars form that. And shortening it and adding an Escort structure is slightly more work than bolting on new wings. It's an entire car in it's own right.

900T-R said:

They obviously didn't need to make very many of 'em.

Yet amazing they did, nearly 7200 of them, despite only needing 500 for homoligation. For instance, Volvo built 500 240 TURBO models in 1985. They then proceeded to strip 477 of them and sell them as normal models. The rest went to the works rally team.

Ford on the other hand built the required amount, the "big" turbo versions. And then revised the model and kept it in production as a genuine model in it's own right for 4 years! On this basis it's as much a proper production model as an Impreza STI is or a Celica GT-Four.


And people still seem to be forgetting these:


Which demonstrates that there was a bigger picture in terms of the model placement and line up as an actual retail product.

[300bhp/ton]

Alfanatic said:

This is true, but also quite funny given 300's occasional habit of changing / skirting the rules of other people's OPs.

In fairness I do try and keep to the topic, or at least ask a question of the op as to why this or that, or why not 'x'.

Alfanatic said:

I think 300 has it right here though.

[300bhp/ton]

p4cks said:

300bhp/ton said:

some stuff then a photo of the RS2000

It's always been an opinion of mine that this car along with the Mk3 RS1600i should never ever have been given the 'RS' badge. They were above average at best.

Never been in one so I can't really comment. All I was trying to do was demonstrate the Escort Cosworth was not a singular model, Ford had a grander plan including another AWD Escort at a lower price point but similar styling.