Thursday 8th November 2012

PH Blog: diesel do nicely

Wake up and smell the ... derv? Dan defends opting for the black pump

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Now, clearly if you're a red-blooded PHer you don't get out of bed for anything less a five-litre engine and/or 500hp. All the same, the reaction to the Blood Brothers piece comparing the TDI Scirocco and TT was a little shocking! Nobody was actually forced to read it at gunpoint, at least as far as I'm aware, but that didn't stop a few carrying on as if they had.

It'll have you in the twisties, etc...

The case for the defence follows! I've spent a bit of time in the 170hp Scirocco like the one we featured and actually survived the experience with my humour and lust for life intact. OK, so it fuels from the black pump. But once you're over that prejudice it's actually quite a weapon, with a pleasing sense that it's got just a little bit too much torque for the chassis to stand so making neat, tidy and rapid progress demands more interaction than the point and squirt stereotype some may assume.

The one I drove was a DSG and it demolished the roundabouts of Milton Keynes in an enjoyable sequence of understeer-quelling left-foot braking, rapid-fire shifts and suitably muscular mid-range that carried over to the real world of B-roads and corners too. He said, belatedly realising that selling the diesel dream was going to require something more emotive than recalling a drive around Milton Keynes in a VW TDI...

I'm not done yet though!

Renaultsport Megane diesel proves the point

I'll shortly be in need a 'proper' car with a back seat and everything. Musing on it had me recalling some fun on-track experiences in a Renaultsport Megane. The dCi 175, no less. The Renault guys had brought the entire range to one of their track days and while everyone fought over the R26, 197 Cup and Twingo there in the corner sat a silver diesel Megane, unloved, undriven and standing idle. So I took it out for a spin. Cadwell, if I recall correctly. And what an absolute weapon it was. There's some manner of geekery I forget the precise details of but it involves something about the rear subframe settings being the same as the R26 to offset the additional weight of the engine - the kind of attention to detail you can't help but admire - and on track the thing was incredible.

The almost complete lack of noise was surreal, constantly hitting the rev limiter the only real issue, but with the torque to deal with Cadwell's inclines, the chassis to carry the speed around its corners and the same burly brakes as the other Renaultsport Meganes the diesel was soon passing any number of 888-shod Clios in almost spooky serenity.

PH editor endorses diesel hatch shocker

So I want one. Silver, five-door with a Cup chassis please. I'll be lucky, given how rare they are. Indeed, according to Renault's sales stats I'll be hunting down one of five cars sold with this combination. I've got slightly better odds if I go for a black one - there were 13 of them! But I've always enjoyed a Q-car and they don't get much more stealthy than that. The only five-door dCi 175 currently in the classifieds is a more lairy blue but I'll be keeping my eyes peeled.

Now, time to start work on that PH Heroes piece on the Prius...

Dan

 

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Oh for gods sake.

First we have an article suggesting that two diesel VAG Golf derivatives ( Scirocco and TT) are "two of the best exponents of the sportscar breed" and now we have an article bigging up DERV.

I love diesels. There are two on my driveway. But only because they are expedient.

Stop the madness now for the sake of all that is good. Please.

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VladD said:

Dan, I hadn't read the Blood Brothers piece, but I don't see why you're shocked by the reaction to it. There are plenty of car sites out there, but this is an enthusiasts site. People like me come here to read about exotics and budget heros, primarily to take a break form the mundaness of the working day. Talking about diesels, no matter how good, just doesn't really fit the bill for me.

I'm sure plenty of others will disagree though.

I quite agree. The problem with the "Blood Brothers" piece is that it is poorly written. Suggesting that these two admittedly fine cars are sportscars at the start of the article is such clear, unambiguous cobblers that it can never recover from that. Hence the ridicule.

If, instead, PH editorial staff were saying " In the real world it is inevitable that some of us have to consider the diesel option, but here are two examples of diesels that are also a decent steer", then that would be fine.

But to call them "leading exponents of the sportscar breed" is just nonsense. And the article is rightly ridiculed for it.

If PH stands by these comments, then I look forward to seeing a diesel TT in the next group test with a Porsche Boxster. This of course won't happen. Which kind of demonstrates my point.

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AlpinaB5s said:

Indeed

So PH should just peddle petrol powered carporn? The kind that 99.9% of its readers can't afford? with a bit of bargain barging thrown in for good measure (also powered by petrol of course)?

Is a car such as a D5 with "345bhp, a whopping 516lb ft of torque and can hit 62mph in 5.1sec before bludgeoning its way to a top speed of 171mph" not sporty and exotic enough for you just because its powered by the devils own semen?

Take the blinkers off, enter the real world and realise that PH isnt just for your personal gratification.

All true. But PH is calling them sportscars. They are not.

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dublet said:

Who cares what it's powered by? It should be quick and fun to drive. Many Diesel cars have become both of those and can beat their petrol equivalent models. It's called technological progression. Some people like to venture outside their caves.

You would'nt think that when the third successive TDi has needed a DPF replacement yet again. Technological progression my arse.

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acricha3 said:

I think this comes down to the definition of sporty.

There seems to be a large percentage of people who define sporty to mean 0-60 times, or top speed, or torque ............ and any number of other pointless stats, as some of the comments above demonstrate! (Also found in the GT86 threads!)

For me sporty means involving to drive. I want an engine to have character and be easy to "tweak" on the throttle (quick pick-up, quick drop off), I want a balanced chassis that allows me to play around with yaw angle and gives me a predictable breakaway point ......... not grip grip, some more grip ........ WOOOAAA here comes the hedge! Which unfortunately is what a lot of "sporty" cars give you these days (both petrol and diesel).

Can these attributes be found in a diesel car? Probably, have I found them yet ........ nope!

Diesels have their place, I would argue that for fast motorway use they are better than petrol, good torque, excellent pick-up and economical all traits that are ideal in that environment.

However where I find them lacking is when it comes to pushing on around some twisty roads. They don't drop revs off quick enough, plus any application of throttle tends to resort in instant torque. Unfortunately this means you loose the ability to correct throttle in mid corner as easily as a petrol. The extra weight of the engine seems something chassis engineers are yet to balance out properly as well.

Every time I have attempted to drive a diesel car fast (from the missus TDI TT through to a 330d I had as a loan car recently) I have found myself naturally adopting point and squirt approach as that's what they seem to do best. Efficient but in my humble opinion not sporty.

Precisely. Good post. Just because we are exposed to diesels all the time does'nt mean we become blind to their shortcomings or try to pretend they are more than they are. They can be good to drive, of course they can, but lets ease off the hyperbole. Personally, given the nightmare that is DPF for many, many VAG diesel drivers, if anything we should be looking ahead to the next generation hyper-efficient petrols coming out.

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Mr Whippy said:

that said a TT really isn't a sports car, it's just a flash looking 'normal' car...

Dave

According to PH editorial it is "fine exponent of the sportscar breed" and " with sweeping side-lines and pert rear the TT is an instantly-recognisable status symbol and looks good in almost any colour"

It's not a diesel hatchback at all. It's a sports car apparently.

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big_boz said:

VladD said:

I'd say it was a coupe myself.

You are right its a 335BHP 5 cyld Turbo Charged coupe...clearly no underlying sportscar intentions

Correct IMO. It is a very fast coupe.