Can we reject this car? Bad dealer experience.
Discussion
Hello,
I'll try to cut a long story short here but I doubt I'll succeed so look for the TL;DR at the end.
My mother bought a car from a VW dealer in the Midlands on 30th June. It was the only car she could find in the spec she wanted despite being 80 miles from where she lives.
The dealer advised that the car was immaculate and it would take a week to prepare for collection.
My Mum advertised her car for sale privately as she had been offered a good deal below book price as a PX and was deluged with interest. As the VW dealer wouldn't confirm the date for collection she lost quite a few interested parties.
Finally the dealer offered a date so she sold the car. The dealer then reneged on the date and it was eventually a full month before Mum went to collect the car. For the last 10 days before collection the dealer provided a courtesy car as the new one was in the body shop (having some paint matched, apparently).
Collection was eventually agreed for the 30th June so Mum travelled to collect. When she got there the car was covered in stone chips and the seats were filthy (car was two years old and had less than 10k miles - was described as "immaculate" by the salesman). I've seen the car and the interior condition is very poor, especially post-valet. She collected the car under duress as the dealer wanted the hire car back and they told her she could exchange it within 30 days if not happy. She had paid half in cash and half on finance "for the free servicing" at 15% APR (you couldn't imagine a better credit risk).
She really didn't like the car and asked me to help her get it exchanged for a pre-registered car further up the range. This would mean an additional payment from her of around £6,000.
I started to deal with the dealer on her behalf as she is a pensioner and was becoming quite stressed by the whole thing. They were unavailable every single time I called, from salesman through to sales manager and did not call me back on a single occasion. I ended up having to tell the receptionist I would hold until one of them was available.
We eventually agreed on a car that was within their group stock with <100 miles and wasn't quite the ideal spec but was near enough. The salesman said it would take a week again and I asked him to update me on progress. He didn't. When the car arrived, it actually had 2,500 miles on it but they couldn't do anything to adjust the price as "we're losing money on this car now".
By this stage my Mum was really upset and agreed to take the car anyway. We arranged with the salesman to collect the car today but that he would call me last night to confirm collection and most importantly that he had personally inspected the car and that it really was "immaculate" as described. He didn't call.
I eventually tracked him down and he confirmed that he had viewed the car personally and that it was absolutely immaculate. He confirmed collection for this morning and that they would "make the experience special" for my Mum to make up for all the hassle.
I couldn't go with my Mum today but she called an hour ago to say that when she got there the car had several stone chips and wasn't in good condition. The "special experience" was a set of floor mats. The salesman acknowledged on the phone to me that the car wasn't immaculate and that when he viewed it last night it was in the valet bay and "must have looked better".
They won't reduce the price to reflect the condition and my Mum doesn't want it - she just wants a car that is actually as described. They have offered her another one with 2,400 miles in a different colour but as it has parking sensors they want another £500 and won't move on the price of that one.
The 30 day exchange period expires tomorrow. My Mum is worried that if she rejects the first car outright (it wasn't in the condition described as agreed by everyone) that they won't give her her money back and that she then won't have a car at all. I'm strongly advocating that she gives them the keys back and gives them 24 hours to refund her money and cancel the finance agreement. She's inclined to pay the extra £500 and take the car with parking sensors, which apparently at least has decent bodywork.
I should point out that I only got involved because my Mum was upset. I negotiate for a living so I understand the value of remaining calm, measured, respectful and reasonable and have been so at all times. I have tried to find the win/win but this dealership have been extremely unprofessional, have communicated dreadfully, have outright lied on several occasions, have always tried to blame someone else and really do not seem to care at all about my Mum travelling 160 miles on three separate occasions to be let down and fobbed off. Based on their behaviour, they really should be ashamed of themselves.
My question is can we reject the car and get our money back? Is there any way to find someone in the group who actually cares about customer experience?
TL;DR - VW main dealership has lied and communicated badly whilst messing my 65 year old Mother around at every turn. I want to extricate her from them but not sure on legal/moral position. Advice welcomed please.
Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any sensible counsel.
I'll try to cut a long story short here but I doubt I'll succeed so look for the TL;DR at the end.
My mother bought a car from a VW dealer in the Midlands on 30th June. It was the only car she could find in the spec she wanted despite being 80 miles from where she lives.
The dealer advised that the car was immaculate and it would take a week to prepare for collection.
My Mum advertised her car for sale privately as she had been offered a good deal below book price as a PX and was deluged with interest. As the VW dealer wouldn't confirm the date for collection she lost quite a few interested parties.
Finally the dealer offered a date so she sold the car. The dealer then reneged on the date and it was eventually a full month before Mum went to collect the car. For the last 10 days before collection the dealer provided a courtesy car as the new one was in the body shop (having some paint matched, apparently).
Collection was eventually agreed for the 30th June so Mum travelled to collect. When she got there the car was covered in stone chips and the seats were filthy (car was two years old and had less than 10k miles - was described as "immaculate" by the salesman). I've seen the car and the interior condition is very poor, especially post-valet. She collected the car under duress as the dealer wanted the hire car back and they told her she could exchange it within 30 days if not happy. She had paid half in cash and half on finance "for the free servicing" at 15% APR (you couldn't imagine a better credit risk).
She really didn't like the car and asked me to help her get it exchanged for a pre-registered car further up the range. This would mean an additional payment from her of around £6,000.
I started to deal with the dealer on her behalf as she is a pensioner and was becoming quite stressed by the whole thing. They were unavailable every single time I called, from salesman through to sales manager and did not call me back on a single occasion. I ended up having to tell the receptionist I would hold until one of them was available.
We eventually agreed on a car that was within their group stock with <100 miles and wasn't quite the ideal spec but was near enough. The salesman said it would take a week again and I asked him to update me on progress. He didn't. When the car arrived, it actually had 2,500 miles on it but they couldn't do anything to adjust the price as "we're losing money on this car now".
By this stage my Mum was really upset and agreed to take the car anyway. We arranged with the salesman to collect the car today but that he would call me last night to confirm collection and most importantly that he had personally inspected the car and that it really was "immaculate" as described. He didn't call.
I eventually tracked him down and he confirmed that he had viewed the car personally and that it was absolutely immaculate. He confirmed collection for this morning and that they would "make the experience special" for my Mum to make up for all the hassle.
I couldn't go with my Mum today but she called an hour ago to say that when she got there the car had several stone chips and wasn't in good condition. The "special experience" was a set of floor mats. The salesman acknowledged on the phone to me that the car wasn't immaculate and that when he viewed it last night it was in the valet bay and "must have looked better".
They won't reduce the price to reflect the condition and my Mum doesn't want it - she just wants a car that is actually as described. They have offered her another one with 2,400 miles in a different colour but as it has parking sensors they want another £500 and won't move on the price of that one.
The 30 day exchange period expires tomorrow. My Mum is worried that if she rejects the first car outright (it wasn't in the condition described as agreed by everyone) that they won't give her her money back and that she then won't have a car at all. I'm strongly advocating that she gives them the keys back and gives them 24 hours to refund her money and cancel the finance agreement. She's inclined to pay the extra £500 and take the car with parking sensors, which apparently at least has decent bodywork.
I should point out that I only got involved because my Mum was upset. I negotiate for a living so I understand the value of remaining calm, measured, respectful and reasonable and have been so at all times. I have tried to find the win/win but this dealership have been extremely unprofessional, have communicated dreadfully, have outright lied on several occasions, have always tried to blame someone else and really do not seem to care at all about my Mum travelling 160 miles on three separate occasions to be let down and fobbed off. Based on their behaviour, they really should be ashamed of themselves.
My question is can we reject the car and get our money back? Is there any way to find someone in the group who actually cares about customer experience?
TL;DR - VW main dealership has lied and communicated badly whilst messing my 65 year old Mother around at every turn. I want to extricate her from them but not sure on legal/moral position. Advice welcomed please.
Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any sensible counsel.
Thanks for the responses, much appreciated.
I don't have a social networking account unfortunately. I have discovered that the sales manager is also the general manager for the entire dealership which is interesting.
I have written to him politely to ask for a phone call or meeting (it's a 100 miles round trip for me but worth doing if it's more likely to lead to a good result) today or tomorrow, stressing that my mum is very unhappy and upset at the moment but that we want to come to a sensible resolution.
We'd be very happy to buy a car that is as described and it's that simple. Hopefully they'll see sense.
I don't have a social networking account unfortunately. I have discovered that the sales manager is also the general manager for the entire dealership which is interesting.
I have written to him politely to ask for a phone call or meeting (it's a 100 miles round trip for me but worth doing if it's more likely to lead to a good result) today or tomorrow, stressing that my mum is very unhappy and upset at the moment but that we want to come to a sensible resolution.
We'd be very happy to buy a car that is as described and it's that simple. Hopefully they'll see sense.
POORCARDEALER said:
I think a brand new car might save you aggravation as it wont have any stone chips or signs of wear.
I'm sure you are right here. It may well come to that but the budget is fully stretched for the pre-reg model, which is one of the reasons we're unhappy about the additional £500. I was fairly clear that "immaculate" in my mind meant "as new", given that the car was advertised as having less than 100 miles.I also don't personally think this particular dealer deserves any more business but we may have no choice.
Thanks again for the replies and comments.
My Mum has decided she just wants a car that is as described and overnight has decided to take the "upgraded" car and pay the extra £500. Interestingly, she told me last night that the salesman asked her to sign the paperwork yesterday before she had even seen the car (this is the one he described as immaculate but was anything but). She had to ask if she could look at it first!
The General Manager of the dealership (who is also the sales manager...) finally emailed me last night to say that he'd call me this morning.
He's been tangentially involved during the process so it wasn't a huge surprise when he didn't call. I phoned about 15 mins ago and just said I'd wait until he was available (when I've tried to speak to him previously the receptionist has made a point of telling me how very busy he is).
When he came to the phone he told me he hasn't got time to speak to everyone he should and asked me what the latest was. He'd had a bit of a brief from his sales guy but clearly wasn't fully up to speed. As my Mum just wants this done with and this guy has the same attitude to professionalism as his sales team I didn't bother with details, I just politely explained that we would take the upgraded car and could he please let me know when they could deliver (as my Mum isn't going on another round trip).
He said it needs to go through the workshop and he doesn't know when that can be done, or when he can arrange a driver (he's the head of the dealership) but that the salesman will call me "in the next few days" with an update. I suppose that means I'll be calling them on Friday.
It doesn't actually feel like we're any closer to getting a car as there are so many things that can go wrong between now and delivery and I know I will have to carefully manage every stage. I won't be making any formal complaints now until we have the car and Mum is happy with it, at which point I'll be writing in detail to the CEO of VW UK.
I won't be asking for anything and this is really a first world problem. I accept that stuff happens, things aren't always as we would like them and that there are good and bad businesses everywhere but I strongly feel that this dealership has tried to take advantage of a person in a relatively vulnerable position, they have often been economical with the truth, blamed everyone but themselves, their communication has been appalling, they have acted unprofessionally and wasted a lot of our time. The people at the top deserve to know what type of people are representing their brand, and the type of experience they are delivering to customers.
Interestingly, after three abortive visits totalling around 500 miles, ten emails and fifteen phone calls, neither myself nor my Mum have received the slightest hint of an apology. The closest was on my call with the GM earlier when he said "it all went pear-shaped yesterday".
I'll keep you informed, thanks again for support.
My Mum has decided she just wants a car that is as described and overnight has decided to take the "upgraded" car and pay the extra £500. Interestingly, she told me last night that the salesman asked her to sign the paperwork yesterday before she had even seen the car (this is the one he described as immaculate but was anything but). She had to ask if she could look at it first!
The General Manager of the dealership (who is also the sales manager...) finally emailed me last night to say that he'd call me this morning.
He's been tangentially involved during the process so it wasn't a huge surprise when he didn't call. I phoned about 15 mins ago and just said I'd wait until he was available (when I've tried to speak to him previously the receptionist has made a point of telling me how very busy he is).
When he came to the phone he told me he hasn't got time to speak to everyone he should and asked me what the latest was. He'd had a bit of a brief from his sales guy but clearly wasn't fully up to speed. As my Mum just wants this done with and this guy has the same attitude to professionalism as his sales team I didn't bother with details, I just politely explained that we would take the upgraded car and could he please let me know when they could deliver (as my Mum isn't going on another round trip).
He said it needs to go through the workshop and he doesn't know when that can be done, or when he can arrange a driver (he's the head of the dealership) but that the salesman will call me "in the next few days" with an update. I suppose that means I'll be calling them on Friday.
It doesn't actually feel like we're any closer to getting a car as there are so many things that can go wrong between now and delivery and I know I will have to carefully manage every stage. I won't be making any formal complaints now until we have the car and Mum is happy with it, at which point I'll be writing in detail to the CEO of VW UK.
I won't be asking for anything and this is really a first world problem. I accept that stuff happens, things aren't always as we would like them and that there are good and bad businesses everywhere but I strongly feel that this dealership has tried to take advantage of a person in a relatively vulnerable position, they have often been economical with the truth, blamed everyone but themselves, their communication has been appalling, they have acted unprofessionally and wasted a lot of our time. The people at the top deserve to know what type of people are representing their brand, and the type of experience they are delivering to customers.
Interestingly, after three abortive visits totalling around 500 miles, ten emails and fifteen phone calls, neither myself nor my Mum have received the slightest hint of an apology. The closest was on my call with the GM earlier when he said "it all went pear-shaped yesterday".
I'll keep you informed, thanks again for support.
berlintaxi said:
If your mum is paying an additional £500 and hasn't seen the car, will she be covered by the distance selling regulations if she doesn't like the look of it when it arrives?
She has seen this one, they showed it to her yesterday and although it's not her first choice of colour it is in ideal condition.ecsrobin said:
IntriguedUser said:
Who buys a car without going to see it, ridiculously stupid. Immaculate don't mean crap to me, people selling ten year old cars say their immaculate!
This!! Whilst it's not much help now but when spending a decent amount of money it is worth spending the few quid in fuel and the time of a 100mile round trip (which is nothing) to inspect what your buying. My car I found online at a Honda main dealer I went to see it twice prior to purchase and that was a 250mile round trip.
To clarify, the first car was about the only one available of the spec she was looking for and she found it online. She went to view (150 miles) and pointed out the issues with the car, all of which the garage agreed to fix before she collected it. When she went to collect (another 150 miles), they weren't done but she felt under pressure to collect anyway on promises of "sort it later or swap in 30 days" (this was a month after the first viewing, during which time they had been "attending to the issues"), particularly as she had sold her old car in the meantime.
She realised in a day or so that she couldn't live with the state of the car and spoke to the dealer to ask about returning it. They advised that she couldn't return it and that they didn't have anything similar but she could upgrade to a "delivery miles" car of the next model up. This is the point at which I got involved as they were messing her around. She actually liked the model offered and decided to stretch the budget to buy it.
This car was described to both of us as "as new with delivery miles, certainly less than 100" and was delivered from another branch of the same group. When it arrived several days later I called to confirm collection and the salesman told me that it actually had 2,500 miles on but was absolutely immaculate. They refused to move on the price and there were only a couple of days left on the 30 day exchange option so Mum decided to go for it anyway. This was the car she went to collect yesterday (another 150 mile round trip) which as previously explained was far from immaculate.
In summary: she's 65. She viewed the first car and agreed to have issues fixed. They weren't. The dealer then offered a delivery miles car (described as "immaculate" by main dealer) which shouldn't have needed viewing. It actually had 2500 miles and was peppered with stone chips and dirty inside. She has physically seen the third car and agreed to buy it.
I'm not really sure what else she could have done to protect herself here. The more I type this out, the more disgusted I am with the dealer. I always try to use local business wherever I can but this process was underway before I got involved. Lesson learned I think!
I don't really want to get into the model specifics as it may identify the dealer but it wasn't that out of the ordinary - it just happened that there was only one car of the model, colour and options (again, not exotic) she wanted available online within 100 miles when she was looking.
She wasn't "happy" to upgrade at all (the upgrade is not the equivalent of going from an "L" to a "GL", of the same model - it's like going from a Focus to a Mondeo) and it means spending money she really didn't want to spend, but with a short time left to exchange it was the only option she felt she had. She does like the "Mondeo" (as she should given that it's a substantially more expensive car), but didn't originally set out with the intention (or the budget) to buy it.
I reiterate, she would have been very happy to buy the "Focus" (it was the model she really wanted) either
a) as it was originally described when advertised
or
b) when the agreed issues were resolved
Hope that makes more sense.
She wasn't "happy" to upgrade at all (the upgrade is not the equivalent of going from an "L" to a "GL", of the same model - it's like going from a Focus to a Mondeo) and it means spending money she really didn't want to spend, but with a short time left to exchange it was the only option she felt she had. She does like the "Mondeo" (as she should given that it's a substantially more expensive car), but didn't originally set out with the intention (or the budget) to buy it.
I reiterate, she would have been very happy to buy the "Focus" (it was the model she really wanted) either
a) as it was originally described when advertised
or
b) when the agreed issues were resolved
Hope that makes more sense.
Sheepshanks said:
Not really, it's a VW, what's the deal with all the subterfuge?
The only thing I haven't done is named the dealer or the specific make and model of the car - in this case because if it is the only one, it will be easy to establish who the dealer is. This is against the PH rules.Can I ask why it matters, and why you are so insistent on knowing? You appear to have assumed it is a Golf, but I don't think I've mentioned the model?
Edited by Tidybeard on Wednesday 30th July 19:13
Edited by Tidybeard on Wednesday 30th July 19:25
Sheepshanks said:
It's a VW - knowing the model isn't going to narrow it down much.
I'm just intrigued that there wouldn't be dozens, if not hundreds, of examples of any VW model kicking around and wondered what unique combination of spec your Mum was looking for.
I thought that would be the case too, but I've checked myself and it isn't. It seems that there are a lot of lowish spec black, grey and silver diesels around, but not much else available in stock. I guess they know their market.I'm just intrigued that there wouldn't be dozens, if not hundreds, of examples of any VW model kicking around and wondered what unique combination of spec your Mum was looking for.
TooMany2cvs said:
The obvious answer, just from what you've told us, is not to get into a position where acceptance of a sub-standard car is needed to resolve a self-inflicted lack of transport...
Hmmm.She needed to realise the money from the old car to pay for the new one, as many people do. Dealer offered £1000 less than book as PX. Had to sell privately, actually achieved £1100 more than dealer offered as her old car really was mint, had done half average miles, had full service history and was very well looked after.
Viewed new car at main dealer before selling old car. Pointed out all specific faults and issues which if fixed she would be happy with the car. Dealer committed, in writing, to rectify everything discussed before collection - itemising the issues. Dealer didn't do any of them. Mum acts in good faith, sells old car shortly before collecting new one, is stitched up.
How would you propose she "not get into" that position, which apparently would have been "very easy to prevent"?
Edited by Tidybeard on Thursday 31st July 21:42
Wacky Racer said:
I can never understand why anyone would buy a car, motorbike, house or anything else unseen, especially something costing several thousand pounds.
One last go 
- She viewed the first car, in person.
- It had (cosmetic) faults, the dealer promised to rectify them if she bought it.
- The second car was described, by a main dealer, as "as new" with "delivery miles, certainly less than 100". It had 2,500 miles and was badly stone chipped. So she didn't buy it.
- She has seen the third car, in person. It is in ideal condition. She has now agreed to buy it.
No one in this story has bought anything without seeing it. I can't boil it down any further than that.
Edited by Tidybeard on Thursday 31st July 21:54
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