Watch Ferrari/K'segg make the P1 look slow through Brunchen

[Tom73]

Koenigsegg One:1 vs Koenigsegg Agera R vs Ferrari LaFerrari XX mule vs McLaren P1

Koenigsegg Agera R vs McLaren P1

Raw footage:

P1
LaFerrari XX
Agera R
One:1

A few notes:

- McLaren's footage is from their (failed) record attempt
- LaFerrari XX mule is said to be running slicks
- Koenigsegg driver crashed the Agera R after missing his braking point after Dottinger Hohe/Tiergarten so is braking extra early in the One:1, allowing the slower cars to gain some
- No it's in no way conclusive, but seeing as this is the best McLaren could muster and the other three are by no means going full bore...

---

So, "a whole new thing", huh? I suppose we'll have to wait a while to see who comes out on top but the unquestionable winners so far is McLaren's PR team and the overbearing british press who managed to push a modified, heavy 12C with no e-diff as the ultimate track weapon. Well done. *slow clap*

[Tom73]

dudleybloke said:

Have we had an official time for the P1 yet?

I believe the official time is "of course we did [go under seven]" which would indicate somewhere below 7:00 (assuming McLaren aren't outright liars) but above the 918's 6:57.

[Tom73]

Fastdruid said:

I'm not going to comment on which is actually faster (frankly I'd love to have any one of them and don't care) but a single clip of a short section of track is no way indicative of how fast a car is overall.

I know from having played lots and lots of video games against my own ghost that even with the same car a minor mistake when "going for it" can result in a few car lengths lost let alone when against different cars with different strengths.

The P1 is going full bore. The others are not. It could easily be a full second behind the One:1 if it weren't allowed to catch up with a later braking point. And even in this favorable comparison it's still more than half a second behind. Of course this massive gap will have implications on the rest of the track. From all the footage that's been published it barely keeps it together in the corners due to the useless brake steer (who would have thunk that torque vectoring would prove useful and not so easily substituted by a glorified ESP? Max?) so not a lot of room for improvement either.

Face it - you've been suckered in by Chris & co and just a physics would suggest it doesn't have anything for lighter, more powerful machines with more rubber on the road and a PROPER e-diff. It's good for a bragging session and some drifiting but in the context of being a "whole new thing" it's all smoke and mirrors. A 12C with some extra hype behind it.

Max_Torque said:

Wait a minute, a tread about Koenigsegg being "amazing, like, init" by Tom73. Hmmm, i smell a rat!

(seriously, if you want to be part of pistonheads, it would be nice if you might perhaps consider posting on some other subjects as well ;-)

Personal attacks serves an argument well, especially coming from a McLaren employee who has been even more active (as a nay sayer) in Koenigsegg threads than I have. And look here you are doing yet another cameo, what a shocker.

(don't worry I do. You go ahead and bite away at this account though ;-)

zeppelin101 said:

A more relevant comparison to the XX Ferrari would be the P1 GTR when it surfaces. Not sure how comparing the super spastic Ferrari to the mildly-spastic Mclaren is fair.

It's still painfully slow compared to an 2015 Agera R mule on regular pump gas, sporting Cup tires and a tricked out One:1 suspension. If all Koenigsegg has to do to keep their offering up to speed is to swap tires and fit it with a new set of dampers, then perhaps the P1 wasn't such a great achievement after all? I suggested as much back when Chris did his review too, saying Koenigsegg was insulated against the market due to their low volume and flexibility. Got mocked for it by a certain McLaren employee/PR guy in this thread (who also stated torque vectoring was pretty much useless compared to "brake steer").

The Ferrari XX is probably there for comparing with One:1 and Agera R. The P1 possibly fills a purpose by showing how much further ahead, or "newer things", the others are.

mikebradford said:

But if an arguement is to be made, at least try and get the facts its based on as near to 100% as possible.
Surely theirs a better cleaner P1 cornering effort available of the net, to splice into those gifts.
Its possible its still not the fatsest through that section. But if you dont want people crying foul. Dont put yourself in a position to have your point torn apart.

Edited by mikebradford on Tuesday 16th September 13:16

Surely there isn't. That's from their record attempt and you wont find a faster footage. Feel free to compare with the one where it stays planted but isn't nearly as quick.

http://gfycat.com/ThriftySelfishArachnid

They are forced to be this close to the limit to be even remotely fast.

[Tom73]

Streetrod said:

What he said

Tommy! Tommy! Tommy! I expected better from you on this. To try and compare these cars like this is so open to error as to be laughable and you know this. Nothing of meaning can be extrapolated from this video. Also K'segg has failed to proclaim a time. If they are in full attack mode which is what you appear to be indicating here then where is the big "We have broken the Ring lap record" announcement.

One corner on a track with as many as the Ring has indicates nothing

Now we have a party. Though I feel like I've proven you wrong too many times to even offer a serious response to your "theories" at this point. After all you're the guy clinging to a Huayra Top Gear record set on slicks and scoffed at the One:1 when the news broke.

And I specifically wrote that the Koenigsegg driver was being overly cautious which is very apparent in the raw footage. I don't ask for much but you could take the time to read through the OP and click the links before commenting.

And yes, you can certainly extrapolate a ton from this.

Max_Torque said:

Seriously now, change the record. We get it, you like K'eggs, we get that now!


BTW, you'll find the rest of the PH forum over here>>>>> and here<<<<< and here^^^^^ you can post on other subjects if you want, and maybe that will make you sound more like a normal human being and less of a one tracked, fanboy obsessive. There are some great, fun, funny, interesting and even unsual threads to choose from as well. Take a look, you might like it ;-)

We get it. You like McLaren and made a bunch of claims which were all proven wrong and now that you cannot support your argument with quasi mumbo jumbo anymore you've resorted to all out ad hominem.

Add a few more exclamation point for impact etc.

[Tom73]

zeppelin101 said:

What we can extrapolate is that you are possibly the most one dimensional individual ever to grace Pistonheads.

Are you, in fact, Mr Koenigsegg himself?

Deja vu. No, I am not as I stated the last time I got attacked for doing the unthinkable act of proposing that the P1 could use a e-diff and that Koenigsegg's business was insulated from it due to their low volumes

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

but we do have a few confirmed McLaren employees among the midst who happily fires on the mob so let me return the favor:

Are you per any chance a McLaren employee?

[Tom73]

Max_Torque said:

Makes good old 300bhp look like a perfectly sane, rounded individual ;-)

How about if you stop being such a child?? You've made a few bold statements previously and if you're still confident in them you should be able to back them up without insults.

[Tom73]

Streetrod said:

Mate, proven me wrong!!! Please get your facts streight.

As for the Huayra Top Gear record if you had bothered to do your research you will have seen that I happily conceded to Matt33 on that matter when he produced conclusive evidence to back his statement. And for the record I was looking for clarification of his statements which he provided. So I humbly back down. You might want to try it yourself sometime

There's plenty more where that came from. Do you want me to make a list of quotes for you? It would be a long and laughable read but I really shouldn't have to.

[Tom73]

Chris Harris said:

Yep, it was all PR. I just made it all up. The P1 wasn't much faster than a 335d (mapped).

It was lazy journalism and you know it.

[Tom73]

Don1 said:

Next you'll be telling us that driving fun cars for a living is closer to 'work' than you'd really like to admit...

Or that not only Ferrari prep their cars...

[Tom73]

Don1 said:

?

From someone who has no idea who you are, or your history here, this thread is a trifle bizarre...

Right. Obviously some people do know me, so you might want to take that into consideration first of all...

Long story short the gents (Max_Torque, stevesingo, streetrod, etc) in this thread had it in for me ever since I made a few statements about the P1 and Pagani respectively in discussions that turned nasty (from their end) and now that things aren't developing as they would have hoped, to put it that way, the conversation has steered from arguments mixed with insult to exclusively childish insult and mockery. And that's where you entered.

So if I were you I'd just ignore it or stay and enjoy the show.

[Tom73]

Chris Harris said:

Hahahahahahahaha!!!

Is this you then? Still willing to stick by that statement despite it's poor cornering ability and traction? Because to me it looks like you were wrong and they haven't solved the "brake steer"/ESP thingy at all. Care to elaborate what you meant? "It corners like crap but feels great?" "Good for a rally?"

Chris Harris said:

andyps said:

It really says enough about the effectiveness of the solution adopted in the P1. The only other thing I would add is that even if a hydraulically operated electronically controlled (which many journalists report is not as good to drive as a non-electronic version) LSD cost say £5k it would have been perfectly feasible to include one in the P1 and not put off potential owners. the fact that the car doesn't have this indicates the brake steer system to be preferable for the car overall. But if you don't like it, don't buy one!
The one problem with your statement is that when journos reference electronic diffs it's Electronic Traction Control Systems they're referring to, ie the P1.[quote]

tom73 said:

The "proper diff" is hydraulic and electronically operated, meaning it takes input from sensors and actuates the hydraulics instead of being a crude mechanical centrifugal diff. It's basically the best of two worlds, mechanical with true torque vectoring and the precision of sensor input. I would love to see someone harp on it.


"If you don't like it, don't buy one"? That settles it then. I guess there's no need to discuss any hypercars on this forum. In fact: "Why do you care? Are you buying one??"

I'm the biggest critic of these electronic non-differentials. I think the 12C suffered for not having a mechanical LSD, and even though I do buy all of the engineering arguments that see then as a malign influence in the search for optimum road behaviour, I think modern power outputs require them (and I like doing skids)

The P1's system is the first I've driven that actually works. When you see the video next week, you'll see. The response from the rear axle under power feels like there is a mechanical locking diff. It's uncanny. But I just judge these things on confidence - in a 12C, even in its latest brake-steer calibration ( and late cars are much different to early ones) you never quite know if one or both wheels will spin-up. In the P1, it's always both.

Sounds terrible, but you need to feel it from the cabin to see how it works. For me it was the big question mark over the car's specification, having driven it, it's a compete non-argument.

The video also asks about the car's ability to do one NS lap with a single charge of KERS - I won't spoil the answer.

I also have a top speed for the Dottinge Hohe!.......

Edited by Tom73 on Tuesday 16th September 14:39

[Tom73]

Max_Torque said:

It's the thread that just keeps on giving!

Bookmarked as my "favourite thread of the week" and it's only tuesday ;-)

Here's one for you to explain. I can find more if you persist.

Max_Torque said:

tom73 said:

"The electronic differential continuously distributes torque to the rear wheels, both in Power Off (turning in for the corner) and Power On (accelerating out of the corner), guaranteeing excellent vehicle stability and control in all driving conditions and on all surfaces. The E-Diff 3 now works in a more integrated manner with the F1-Trac, using a series of F1-Trac parameters and evaluations (such as estimates of grip) both in manettino positions in which the F1-Trac is inserted (Sport – Race) and those in which it is deactivated (CT Off and CST Off). Compared to previous versions, E-Diff 3 delivers improved torque distribution coming out of corners (in Sport, Race, CT Off and CST Off), which translates into improved grip, better roadholding and more progressive handling on the limit. The result is an improvement of 32 percent in longitudinal acceleration out of corners compared to previous models and a lap time at Fiorano of just 1" 25 seconds."

^^ Which is exactly what the P1s Brake steer system already does, except it requires no extra hardware above what is already fitted for stability control,and as such carries no weight penalty compared to a conventional mechanical LSD. And of course, to work properly, systems like brake steer which act to balance drive torque across the axle, actually require a speed difference, and as such, fitting a mechanical LSD would reduce performance not increase it.

So i tell you what Tom, when you make your own hyper car, you can fit what ever tech you like to it, but in the mean time, i'd leave it to real engineers to decide what tech to fit to cars such as the P1 etc.

[Tom73]

Chris Harris said:

I think you're on day release, or the meds aren't working properly.

If you can get me a P1, I'll happily drive it with you in the passenger seat and you can feel what's going on.

Why you think people like me would bother to make this stuff up is beyond me.

I report what I feel. You look at video images of cars, without making allowances for any post production work, and report what you think you see.

When it visibly struggles to cut a corner properly and loses traction it doesn't take a genius to conclude that it could use a little more diff and a little less "brake steer" and even some kid on a smart phone could tell you that.

ManOpener said:

Tom, as a newcomer to this thread with no familiarity with your apparent obsessions, can you give me one good reason why I should trust your conclusions, apparently based on a few scraps of footage that still can't be logically expanded to reach the same conclusion you appear to have, over the criticisms of someone like max_torque who appears, to an external observer like myself, to be far more knowledgeable on all of the pertinent issues that could affect lap time, and thus has an opinion which carries far greater empirical weight?

Well you don't have to. There's more than me who's chimed in on this topic so take your pick. Here's one:

isaldri said:

Perhaps I can chip in here with a bit of actual driving experience....

I have driven the 12C a reasonable amount on the road and a few times on track and on track the 12C can feel a bit unnatural close to the limit, although whether that is because of the suspension or the lack of a LSD is trickier to say. However, to me personally an electric diff car like the 458 feels slightly synthetic as well, certainly compared to a car like the 7.2 GT3 RS with a mechanical locking diff. Per the P1 article, it does seem that now the brake steer calibration has advanced to the point where if CH feels the car feels natural going sideways, one can quite reasonably assume there is no difference in feel between running the an electric diff and just using brake steer. (well up until brake steer cooks one of the rear discs... hehe)

I would probably still hesitate to say the Mclaren solution is necessary a 'better' one though. There is no doubt the Mclaren engineers are very confident there is no possible gain in absolute performance solely relying on brake steer compared to some kind of e-diff having tested it a fair bit and it seems now the handling/feel of the car is spot on as well. However, one cannot help but notice that Ferrari and Porsche with a vast amount of sportscar building experience have decided to combine both brake steer (under the guise of PTV and ESC or any number of silly acronyms) with electronic diffs in their latest models (991 GT3 and 458 speciale) rather than simply relying on brake steer systems and I do have some difficulty believing that Mclaren alone have found a vastly superior way of calibrating their system...

dudleybloke said:

Its like getting into a fight over a game of top trumps.

Tom. Have you driven any of the cars your comparing?

I've been asked this before but I really think it shouldn't matter. I'm not big on appeal to authority and I think it's a daft way of settling a debate, just barely more elaborate than punching a smaller bloke to shut him up.

I am not a 14 year old child without any experience if that's what you're asking though.

Edited by Tom73 on Tuesday 16th September 15:11

[Tom73]

Max_Torque said:

So jealous! If CH had described ME like that^^ i'd have a T shirt made up and everything!!


(hows about it, a special PH "Monkey thinks i'm on day release!" or something? (artwork tbc) ;-)

Well then I suppose you're just the type that's easily impressed by d-list celebrities.

[Tom73]

zeppelin101 said:

Nope, I have piss all to do with Mclaren.

However, I do recognise a blinded fan boy whenever I see one and the evidence there is, I'm afraid, inscrutable.

When you start posting about something that isn't a Koenigsegg and arguing the toss with people who have direct experience with these products you so wonderfully debase at every opportunity based on your armchair hypotheses, then maybe people will start taking you seriously.

Until then, I would bet that every thread you start or derail will end up heading exactly the same way as this one and all the ones before it has.

Also, nowhere in that Chris Harris quote you've dug out does it in any way back up what you're trying to say. Unless you have never read English before.

Well you're making a "armchair hypotheses" that I'm making an "armchair hypotheses". So let's for arguments sake say I've not only driven all these cars but own one or two of them and then rather than addressing the person we can get down to addressing the topic at hand.

[Tom73]

Superhoop said:

Thread of the year contender surely?

I would hope so, haha.

[Tom73]

ManOpener said:

I don't mean to labour the point, but I think you rather misunderstood what I was saying. Questioning whether the McLaren's diff arrangement is technically "superior" or not to electronic or mechanical limited slip options (if such a conclusion even really exists) isn't really what I was taking issue with. More your claims that a few short clips of four vehicles on a single corner can be reasonably and logically assessed in order to accurately determine which is the faster over a 10+ mile course.

Fair enough. My point however is that the McLaren can be excluded from the company based on it being so helplessly left behind compacted by visible driving characteristics that relatively speaking strongly suggests the need of less weight, bigger tires, more power and a electronic-hydraulic differential to steer it into the corners and help it maintain a bit of traction when one wheel slips. Furthermore it's anything but a "whole new thing" as previously suggested by the british auto press.

[Tom73]

zeppelin101 said:

I think this pretty well sums up what I mean by armchair hypothesis

I've not hypothesised anything actually, beyond the fact you're a clown who is comparing a number of cars by their apparent performance on one corner from a singular piece of footage, with no telemetry or statistical data to back up any of it.

I think that would be what a statistician would call "completely insignificant" in every single sense of the phrase.

The P1 didn't beat the 918's 6:57. And that's a heavy car with a lot of weight working against the friction of the tires. Those are crystal clear stats.

[Tom73]

sc0tt said:

Tom, are you 41 years old?

Just checking whilst I draft a response.

Maybe. Why do you ask?

Edit: Please bite your tongue if you've whiffed something out. This is an anonymous account. Thanks.

Edited by Tom73 on Tuesday 16th September 15:37

[Tom73]

ManOpener said:

Can it? To me, it sounds like you're trying to claim your own- very likely biased, and still not clearly merit-worth- opinions, based solely on video footage rather than direct experience, are empirical fact. Which is very nice and all, but unless you can actually prove any of the claims you've made, they are simply, as another post very rightly states, armchair hypotheses. Hypotheses that appear to go against the comments of at least one individual in this thread who has a great deal of direct experience in high performance automotive engineering, who, as I've already stated, I (and likely any other informed, rational external observer) is likely to trust the views of over yours.

Interesting. To me it seems like we have a bunch of visual evidence and guys blindly arguing against it.