Last night an M3 changed my mind...
Discussion
So, I grew up watching WRC and Supertouring, and for me WRC was king, watching Makkinen, McRae, Sainz, Burns et al, duke it out over mixed surfaces and awesome scenery was the one.
Driving a classic Impreza Turbo 2000 a few years back only concreted my opinion that when I had the money to run one, I wanted a Subaru or an Evo, It was awesome, you grabbed it by the scruff of the neck and really threw it about. Great fun, nice turn-in, fills you with confidence, even when pushing it more than you probably should.
This weekend I started looking for a WRX wagon, I had never driven a RWD car before, and had zero interest in things N/A or RWD. Turbo 4x4 for me!
Then, last night I got given the keys to my best mate's P&J a manual E46 M3. Unaccompanied. The weather wasn't ideal, so it took a while to get used to, and it was very greasy, but wow, what a chassis! The feedback is brilliant and turn in is keen, you feel everything and it communicates the slightest slip or bump well without unnerving. I couldn’t help but grin. License losing speeds approach with minimal effort, very comfortable, I could imagine driving to the 'ring, doing a few laps and driving home over a long weekend with ease and comfort. A revelation if you must.
The only bit I didn’t like? The power delivery. I'm still a turbo kid at heart, love the lag, the spool and the thump of boost!
So now I'm hunting for a turbo equivalent of one... Any ideas?
Tl;Dr - Drive stuff you wouldn't usually be interested in and you may find something you enjoy!
Driving a classic Impreza Turbo 2000 a few years back only concreted my opinion that when I had the money to run one, I wanted a Subaru or an Evo, It was awesome, you grabbed it by the scruff of the neck and really threw it about. Great fun, nice turn-in, fills you with confidence, even when pushing it more than you probably should.
This weekend I started looking for a WRX wagon, I had never driven a RWD car before, and had zero interest in things N/A or RWD. Turbo 4x4 for me!
Then, last night I got given the keys to my best mate's P&J a manual E46 M3. Unaccompanied. The weather wasn't ideal, so it took a while to get used to, and it was very greasy, but wow, what a chassis! The feedback is brilliant and turn in is keen, you feel everything and it communicates the slightest slip or bump well without unnerving. I couldn’t help but grin. License losing speeds approach with minimal effort, very comfortable, I could imagine driving to the 'ring, doing a few laps and driving home over a long weekend with ease and comfort. A revelation if you must.
The only bit I didn’t like? The power delivery. I'm still a turbo kid at heart, love the lag, the spool and the thump of boost!
So now I'm hunting for a turbo equivalent of one... Any ideas?
Tl;Dr - Drive stuff you wouldn't usually be interested in and you may find something you enjoy!
moebiusuk said:
It's hard to look for a turbo'd equivalent to the E46 M3 because it's such a complete car.
So it's 300hp+ RWD Turbo saloon/coupe.
Nissan Skyline?
Toyota Supra?
E90/92 335i?
M135i? Hatchback though
As an E46 M3 owner and M135i owner, they don't compared.So it's 300hp+ RWD Turbo saloon/coupe.
Nissan Skyline?
Toyota Supra?
E90/92 335i?
M135i? Hatchback though
If you want a car to feel like an M3, you have to buy an M3.
I figure an M135i with a proper diff would be half way there.
jon- said:
moebiusuk said:
It's hard to look for a turbo'd equivalent to the E46 M3 because it's such a complete car.
So it's 300hp+ RWD Turbo saloon/coupe.
Nissan Skyline?
Toyota Supra?
E90/92 335i?
M135i? Hatchback though
As an E46 M3 owner and M135i owner, they don't compared.So it's 300hp+ RWD Turbo saloon/coupe.
Nissan Skyline?
Toyota Supra?
E90/92 335i?
M135i? Hatchback though
If you want a car to feel like an M3, you have to buy an M3.
I figure an M135i with a proper diff would be half way there.
I've done a lot of turbo stuff over the years and part of what makes the E36/46 M3s so great is the high-revving nature of the engine. The lack of vast torque dumping itself on rear tyres at low revs makes the car very controllable and relatively easy to drive hard. For me, a turbo lump as you've described is more suited to a 4WD car and I personally prefer an engine like the S54 in something RWD.
944 Turbo would be approaching this...
It isn't an M3, of course, but it has a turbo, RWD, well built, good handling...
The 1M will be close, but it still won't be an M3
IMHO, part of the appeal of the E46 M3 (and the E30 and E36 generations, too) is the high-revving NA motor in a well balanced chassis....
A laggy turbo kinda spoils the experience, I feel...
It isn't an M3, of course, but it has a turbo, RWD, well built, good handling...
The 1M will be close, but it still won't be an M3
IMHO, part of the appeal of the E46 M3 (and the E30 and E36 generations, too) is the high-revving NA motor in a well balanced chassis....
A laggy turbo kinda spoils the experience, I feel...
The trouble is that although the 135i and 335i are turbocharged, they don't feel it like the Impreza does and I doubt from what the OP says about liking a sudden thump that they'll satisfy him - as they provide linear power just like the n/a E46 M3, just without the lovely noise and of course with less power, so I think the OP would be even more dissapointed. Unless he turbocharges one of course... The other negative is the electronic top of pedal throttle lag in the '35i engine, which is noticeably worse than that present on the E46 M3. After a couple of test drives it put me off completely.
It sounds like the OP is merely enjoying a good FE/RWD chassis. I too had a 4WD rally rep as my second car after a FWD hot hatch and I loved them both. However, trying RWD was a revelatory moment for me and I've only owned RWD cars since, and will probably never own another FWD or 4WD car (yes, some are better than others, but you can't change the basic laws of physics).
My suggestion would be a turbocharged MX5 There are lots of aftermarket options available, and they'll all give that thump that the OP likes, but with more of a sports car feel than the E46 M3 (which to be honest feels very ordinary at less than 9/10ths).
It sounds like the OP is merely enjoying a good FE/RWD chassis. I too had a 4WD rally rep as my second car after a FWD hot hatch and I loved them both. However, trying RWD was a revelatory moment for me and I've only owned RWD cars since, and will probably never own another FWD or 4WD car (yes, some are better than others, but you can't change the basic laws of physics).
My suggestion would be a turbocharged MX5 There are lots of aftermarket options available, and they'll all give that thump that the OP likes, but with more of a sports car feel than the E46 M3 (which to be honest feels very ordinary at less than 9/10ths).
I've got an e36 M3 evo and would say you'll really miss the engine, it's such a big part of the package... Fair enough the e36 m3 is basically a 328 with an amazing motor (unlike the e46 which has a few more bespoke chassis bits) but as described previously the huge rev range and long pedal travel makes the car so easy to drive at lower speeds and so rabid when it's fully spun up.
Why not get an m3 and see how you get on?
Why not get an m3 and see how you get on?
JB! said:
Thanks for the suggestions folks! I dont really fit in MK1 MX5s and a 1M is waaay out of my price range.
Anyone have any experience of Jap RWD cars vs the E46, or am I just going to be disappointed? Thinking sorted GTS-T, S15/S15a, RX7...
Obviously they'll have lower running costs, and they're ground up sports cars rather than a hot-rodded saloon (although the base E46 saloon is a jolly good chassis and I personally would rate it just as highly as the cars you've listed, except perhapd the RX7, which I haven't driven and hear only good things about - I've got a test where they prefer one to a 968). However, I've driven and been in a few modified Jap turbo cars from that era, and to be honest I didn't like them - they seemed to give very little power and a lot of noise followed by a sudden short burst of acceleration. That meant they were not very driveable and in all cases I preferred the standard cars over their modified versions. Then again, I'm just not really a turbo person. In theory I love the idea, but in practise I prefer a good n/a engine. I once compared an S15a 200SX to my E36 325i that I had at the time and preferred the BMW. Some aspects of the 200SX's handling were better (it had a slightly more neutral balance for example), but overall I preferred the BMW.Anyone have any experience of Jap RWD cars vs the E46, or am I just going to be disappointed? Thinking sorted GTS-T, S15/S15a, RX7...
shalmaneser said:
I've got an e36 M3 evo and would say you'll really miss the engine, it's such a big part of the package... Fair enough the e36 m3 is basically a 328 with an amazing motor (unlike the e46 which has a few more bespoke chassis bits) but as described previously the huge rev range and long pedal travel makes the car so easy to drive at lower speeds and so rabid when it's fully spun up.
Why not get an m3 and see how you get on?
Seems the most sensible aproach cost wise, I did think about buying an E46 330i and getting used to N/A power delivery and RWD, they are VERY cheap...Why not get an m3 and see how you get on?
RX-7; wonderful handling and a sorted one will easily show an M3 a clean pair of heels. Mine in single-turbo guise would bully a CSL out of the way on track. I had a great battle with one at Combe one day; it was very fast but the Rex had it on the brakes, and especially on corner speed through the chicanes).
But getting and keeping a sorted one happy is not an easy or cheap proposition and if you are talking 'easy, rewarding daily driver' then I'd recommend the M3!
If you want to make the M3 expensive, unreliable and a general pain in the arse, then turbo it. There's always something with modified cars. If you were going to go down this road, I'd recommend the RX-7 again...
Andy
But getting and keeping a sorted one happy is not an easy or cheap proposition and if you are talking 'easy, rewarding daily driver' then I'd recommend the M3!
If you want to make the M3 expensive, unreliable and a general pain in the arse, then turbo it. There's always something with modified cars. If you were going to go down this road, I'd recommend the RX-7 again...
Andy
JB! said:
shalmaneser said:
I've got an e36 M3 evo and would say you'll really miss the engine, it's such a big part of the package... Fair enough the e36 m3 is basically a 328 with an amazing motor (unlike the e46 which has a few more bespoke chassis bits) but as described previously the huge rev range and long pedal travel makes the car so easy to drive at lower speeds and so rabid when it's fully spun up.
Why not get an m3 and see how you get on?
Seems the most sensible aproach cost wise, I did think about buying an E46 330i and getting used to N/A power delivery and RWD, they are VERY cheap...Why not get an m3 and see how you get on?
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