964 going, what to replace it with?
Discussion
My 964 is going to a broker in the next few days. We've agreed a price, and he's confident that it'll sell fairly quickly. I'll be using the "profit" it's made over the 3 years that I've owned it (£10k) plus whatever I get for my Z4 2.2, to buy a new weekend car. I guess my budget will be around £16k.
The car needs to be a convertible, have some boot space, 2 seats or 2+2, minimal depreciation, and cost less to tax, insure and service than the combined cost of running the 964 and Z4.
It'll need to be quick, at least as quick as the 964, and reasonably comfy/civilised.
My initial thoughts were a Z4M, or maybe a good Boxster 3.2......
The car needs to be a convertible, have some boot space, 2 seats or 2+2, minimal depreciation, and cost less to tax, insure and service than the combined cost of running the 964 and Z4.
It'll need to be quick, at least as quick as the 964, and reasonably comfy/civilised.
My initial thoughts were a Z4M, or maybe a good Boxster 3.2......
I appreciate what you guys are saying, but it's time for a change.
Maybe it's my age (57), but I just don't find the 964 a relaxing car to drive for longer journeys. The whole point of an air-cooled Porsche is you have to work at it, it's alive, you have to respect it.
It's great fun for a quick blast, and it's a very cool car, but after a 2 hour drive, I need a rest. For this reason, I find myself driving it less and less each year. If I'm travelling longer distances, I'll take the E61. If it isn't raining, I'll take the Z4.
The 964 gets used just for fun, when I feel the need for a little spririted driving.
And that's the problem. I find myself driving too fast, just to hear the engine. Sooner or later, I'll come a cropper, or lose my licence. My reactions aren't what thy used to be, and the 964 does tend to wander a bit on the badly surfaced tracks that pass for back roads here in Cornwall. I stick to the main roads, or back roads that I know well. I can't fully exploit the car's potential.
If it was a bit rough around the edges, I probably wouldn't worry so much. The odd ding wouldn't be too much of a problem. It's genuinely a rust-free car, never been crashed. I won't take it out if the roads are wet.
It's in danger of becoming a garage queen, and that shouldn't happen to a Porsche.
I've enjoyed owning and driving it, I've ticked it off my bucket list. It's time for someone else to enjoy it.
I took it for what will probably be my last drive in it today, up to the place that's brokering it.
I went for a drive in a nicely maintained 986 Boxster S Tip. A lot of car for £10K, and I was more impressed than I expected to be. The dealer demonstrated the balance of the car with a couple of circuits of a roundabout. No drama at all, no squealing tyres, no rapid corrections of the wheel, just more lateral G than I've ever experienced. Perfect balance.
My turn, and I found it so easy to drive down some narrow, twisty, badly surfaced back roads. It went exactly where I pointed it, at speeds that would have the 964 (or the Z4) lurching towards the hedges. That may sound like it was boring, but it wasn't. I could safely make good progress, without second-guessing what the car would do next. It did what I wanted it to. It was equally at home pootling along in traffic. I found the Tip box a revelation after the early Tip in the 964, and a lot better than the auto boxes in the Beemers. It seemed to know exactly what gear I needed, allowing me to concentrate on the road. Again, maybe that's a sign of old age, but it suited me.
If it had been any colour but red, I'd have bought it on the spot - my missus won't drive a red car. She's had 3, and crashed them all (and those are the only accidents she's had!).
I think my mind is made up. I just hope he can source one as good, but in a different colour.
Maybe it's my age (57), but I just don't find the 964 a relaxing car to drive for longer journeys. The whole point of an air-cooled Porsche is you have to work at it, it's alive, you have to respect it.
It's great fun for a quick blast, and it's a very cool car, but after a 2 hour drive, I need a rest. For this reason, I find myself driving it less and less each year. If I'm travelling longer distances, I'll take the E61. If it isn't raining, I'll take the Z4.
The 964 gets used just for fun, when I feel the need for a little spririted driving.
And that's the problem. I find myself driving too fast, just to hear the engine. Sooner or later, I'll come a cropper, or lose my licence. My reactions aren't what thy used to be, and the 964 does tend to wander a bit on the badly surfaced tracks that pass for back roads here in Cornwall. I stick to the main roads, or back roads that I know well. I can't fully exploit the car's potential.
If it was a bit rough around the edges, I probably wouldn't worry so much. The odd ding wouldn't be too much of a problem. It's genuinely a rust-free car, never been crashed. I won't take it out if the roads are wet.
It's in danger of becoming a garage queen, and that shouldn't happen to a Porsche.
I've enjoyed owning and driving it, I've ticked it off my bucket list. It's time for someone else to enjoy it.
I took it for what will probably be my last drive in it today, up to the place that's brokering it.
I went for a drive in a nicely maintained 986 Boxster S Tip. A lot of car for £10K, and I was more impressed than I expected to be. The dealer demonstrated the balance of the car with a couple of circuits of a roundabout. No drama at all, no squealing tyres, no rapid corrections of the wheel, just more lateral G than I've ever experienced. Perfect balance.
My turn, and I found it so easy to drive down some narrow, twisty, badly surfaced back roads. It went exactly where I pointed it, at speeds that would have the 964 (or the Z4) lurching towards the hedges. That may sound like it was boring, but it wasn't. I could safely make good progress, without second-guessing what the car would do next. It did what I wanted it to. It was equally at home pootling along in traffic. I found the Tip box a revelation after the early Tip in the 964, and a lot better than the auto boxes in the Beemers. It seemed to know exactly what gear I needed, allowing me to concentrate on the road. Again, maybe that's a sign of old age, but it suited me.
If it had been any colour but red, I'd have bought it on the spot - my missus won't drive a red car. She's had 3, and crashed them all (and those are the only accidents she's had!).
I think my mind is made up. I just hope he can source one as good, but in a different colour.
Yes, quite a few out there, but I'm pretty fussy about condition. I've seen 5 or 6 locally, going for £6 to 8k, and they were showing their age. Shabby hoods, worn interior plastics, scuffed seats. Not the end of the world for what is a fairly cheap car, but it'd annoy me. I was beginning to think that all 986s were like this, that's why I'd discounted them, never driven one.
The one I drove today was practically mint, looked like it was only a couple of years old. Slightly shiny leather on the steering wheel and gearknob, and a couple of marks on the interior door handles.
I'm happy to pay a bit extra for the right car.
The 996 has never appealed to me. The shape just isn't quite right to my eyes. Personal preference. I guess a lot of people saw the 964 the same way 10 years ago?
Also, I want a convertible, and the Boxster just looks right, while I think convertible 911s look a bit awkward.
Personal preference again.
I still think the E85 Z4 looks better, just a shame it's dynamics don't suit me when pressing on down the twisties. It's weird, but I can push my E61 harder, despite the fact that it's a lardy diesel estate. It's predictable, and that gives me the confidence to go faster, in a way that the Z4 and 964 never have. The Boxster gave me the same confidence.
It could be that I don't have the ability to exploit a car that's "alive" I suppose. 25 years of driving repmobiles may have taken it's toll.
The one I drove today was practically mint, looked like it was only a couple of years old. Slightly shiny leather on the steering wheel and gearknob, and a couple of marks on the interior door handles.
I'm happy to pay a bit extra for the right car.
The 996 has never appealed to me. The shape just isn't quite right to my eyes. Personal preference. I guess a lot of people saw the 964 the same way 10 years ago?
Also, I want a convertible, and the Boxster just looks right, while I think convertible 911s look a bit awkward.
Personal preference again.
I still think the E85 Z4 looks better, just a shame it's dynamics don't suit me when pressing on down the twisties. It's weird, but I can push my E61 harder, despite the fact that it's a lardy diesel estate. It's predictable, and that gives me the confidence to go faster, in a way that the Z4 and 964 never have. The Boxster gave me the same confidence.
It could be that I don't have the ability to exploit a car that's "alive" I suppose. 25 years of driving repmobiles may have taken it's toll.
Edited by clockworks on Thursday 26th March 23:56
Thanks for the tip.
Although I was originally thinking that I'd have to spend £15 or 16k to get a car that suited, seeing and driving a good 986 has made me see that I can spend significantly less. The 986 was £9.5k.
Depreciation on a 987 is a big concern, same as any newer car. I guess a nice 986 for £10k has the potential to lose a few £k (dealer margin and minimal depreciation), but a £16k 987 will probably fetch half that amount in 5 years.
I should've said in the original post that I'm semi-retired, so my income is well below the national average. I can't really afford another depreciating asset.
Although I was originally thinking that I'd have to spend £15 or 16k to get a car that suited, seeing and driving a good 986 has made me see that I can spend significantly less. The 986 was £9.5k.
Depreciation on a 987 is a big concern, same as any newer car. I guess a nice 986 for £10k has the potential to lose a few £k (dealer margin and minimal depreciation), but a £16k 987 will probably fetch half that amount in 5 years.
I should've said in the original post that I'm semi-retired, so my income is well below the national average. I can't really afford another depreciating asset.
I went through all the options with the dealer yesterday, and he's looking for an 03/04 car, so facelift with glass rear screen. He was quite insistent that drive by wire was the biggest benefit of the later cars, making the tip 'box much more responsive.
Potential engine issues were my main concern, but he assures me that a regular check for oil leaks, and careful examination of the oil filter once a year, will mean that any problem will be spotted before it becomes terminal. He will show me exactly what to look out for, how to check it all myself.
He feels that sticking to the 2 or 3 year oil change schedule is a big no-no. The oil will be OK, but potential problems will be missed, until it's too late.
At around £300 a year, I'll be getting it serviced.
Old Mercs certainly have the cool factor, but are not what I need for back road blasting.
Potential engine issues were my main concern, but he assures me that a regular check for oil leaks, and careful examination of the oil filter once a year, will mean that any problem will be spotted before it becomes terminal. He will show me exactly what to look out for, how to check it all myself.
He feels that sticking to the 2 or 3 year oil change schedule is a big no-no. The oil will be OK, but potential problems will be missed, until it's too late.
At around £300 a year, I'll be getting it serviced.
Old Mercs certainly have the cool factor, but are not what I need for back road blasting.
I guess some 986s will be "end of life" at 17 years old (plenty of early cars for sale at less than £5k now), but most of those will be rough at 12 years old. Seen a few of those. It's a problem with all old cars as they reach the bottom of their depreciation curve, worse for an image or performance car. Servicing gets skipped, interiors get treated roughly, parking dings get ignored.
I don't think that it's inevitable though. Stay on top of routine maintenance, treat it with respect, and any car should be fine for at least 150k miles, barring a catastrophic failure. Sure, there's a slim chance of a major bill with a Boxster. Isn't the potential for a big bill one of the reasons that the air-cooled cars were cheap at 15 years of age? Back in the day it was rust and leaky engines, now it's failed bearings and seals. The ones that survived climbed out of the doldrums. I see no reason why the 986 (and 996) shouldn't do the same, albeit maybe not to the same levels. Boxsters are very capable cars, and I'm sure they will be appreciated more as time passes, and the rough ones get broken for spares.
If I buy a nice 60k miler for £10k, chances are it'll be a nice 80k miler after 5 years, and still be worth at least half that amount. Another 5 years, and it could be worth more than it is now.
It's a gamble, but a £16k 987 is practically guaranteed to lose £6k in 5 years, and another £5k in the following 5 years, before it starts going up again.
Which one would be the better buy? I guess it depends how far into ownership you go before selling up.
Thanks for the further suggestions of other cars to look at, but a Lotus would be a bit too "back to basics" at my age. I had considered an M3, but they are a bit chavvy right now. TVR is potentially a bigger money pit - lovely looks and noise though.
Z4M was top of my list, but I don't think the ride would do me any favours. Running costs are bit on the high side, and a good one is, what, £15k plus? Probably a good investment, but not really a car I could chuck around the back lanes of Cornwall. Probably be a different story if I lived in the Lakes, Dales, or North Wales. The roads here are mostly very narrow, with poor sight lines. What's needed is pin-point precision, good brakes, and plenty of airbags if the worst happens.
I've had a Mk2 and a Mk3 MX5, and driven a couple of Mk1s. Great cars, great fun, but a bit slow for overtaking.
Having finally experienced a Boxster, I don't see how any other car could improve on it's combination of performance, grip, comfort, and sheer pointability, without spending an awful lot more. It may not excel in any one area, but it's a terrific mix of abilities.
I don't think that it's inevitable though. Stay on top of routine maintenance, treat it with respect, and any car should be fine for at least 150k miles, barring a catastrophic failure. Sure, there's a slim chance of a major bill with a Boxster. Isn't the potential for a big bill one of the reasons that the air-cooled cars were cheap at 15 years of age? Back in the day it was rust and leaky engines, now it's failed bearings and seals. The ones that survived climbed out of the doldrums. I see no reason why the 986 (and 996) shouldn't do the same, albeit maybe not to the same levels. Boxsters are very capable cars, and I'm sure they will be appreciated more as time passes, and the rough ones get broken for spares.
If I buy a nice 60k miler for £10k, chances are it'll be a nice 80k miler after 5 years, and still be worth at least half that amount. Another 5 years, and it could be worth more than it is now.
It's a gamble, but a £16k 987 is practically guaranteed to lose £6k in 5 years, and another £5k in the following 5 years, before it starts going up again.
Which one would be the better buy? I guess it depends how far into ownership you go before selling up.
Thanks for the further suggestions of other cars to look at, but a Lotus would be a bit too "back to basics" at my age. I had considered an M3, but they are a bit chavvy right now. TVR is potentially a bigger money pit - lovely looks and noise though.
Z4M was top of my list, but I don't think the ride would do me any favours. Running costs are bit on the high side, and a good one is, what, £15k plus? Probably a good investment, but not really a car I could chuck around the back lanes of Cornwall. Probably be a different story if I lived in the Lakes, Dales, or North Wales. The roads here are mostly very narrow, with poor sight lines. What's needed is pin-point precision, good brakes, and plenty of airbags if the worst happens.
I've had a Mk2 and a Mk3 MX5, and driven a couple of Mk1s. Great cars, great fun, but a bit slow for overtaking.
Having finally experienced a Boxster, I don't see how any other car could improve on it's combination of performance, grip, comfort, and sheer pointability, without spending an awful lot more. It may not excel in any one area, but it's a terrific mix of abilities.
edc said:
A good pragmatic approach and similar to mine hence why I'm on my second Boxster now. First was a 2000 S with 58k. A more informed and braver buy now means I have a 112k 2004 550 Anniversary. I buy cheaper and freshen up the old parts though. £10k seems pretty steep for a 986. I'd aim to buy under £9k or even £8k and have a little pot for mods or just to freshen a couple of bits whether that's clutch, waterpump or suspension bushes.
It's the state of the interior trim that really bothers me with many of the cars that I've seen at the cheaper end of the market.billywhizzzzzz said:
I had a Z4 3.0i and ultimately it felt a little anodyne and boring. I had the Boxster S v Z4M debate for ages with myself. Agree that the looks of the Boxster (987) are well resolved, better so than the Z4MR, and it is a better all round sports car with compliance that allows you to chuck it around. I guess ultimately though they just felt too commonplace, and I had worries about the robustness of the engine and also, looking at the low value of Mk 1 Bpxsters was worried about depreciation on a 16k 987. So I bought a Z4MR and adore it - it is such an event to drive, with an extraordinary soundtrack and engine - just so much better in every way than my earlier 3.0i that with a blindfold on you wouldn't know you were in a similar car. It's slightly softer - or better sprung and less skittish - than my 3.0i, and better on rural roads with strange cambers, and looking at the price of Z3M Roadsters, unlikely to depreciate much...
Thanks for a very interesting post. I can understand why you made your choice, picking the Z4M for it's rarity and virtually guaranteed future classic status.I guess if I was buying with my head, I'd make the same decision - Z4M rather than 987
It's strange, but Z4s are far more common than Boxsters where I live. I regularly see 3 other Z4s the same colour as mine when I'm driving to work or to the shops. I guess that's because there isn't a Porsche main dealer in Cornwall.
One thing I haven't really mentioned is the fact that I've grown to prefer an automatic box. Maybe I'm getting old and lazy, but I feel that an auto allows me to concentrate on pointing the car in the right direction, looking for potential hazards. It's one less thing to think about.
The fact that the Z4M is only available with a manual is a bit of a negative for me, while the Boxster Tip is the best auto box I've ever experienced.
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