Which car maker currently offers the "worst" range of cars?
Discussion
Inspired by the recent TG Peugeot feature, which car manufacturer in your opinion currently offers the worst range of cars? We'll spare the newbies from China (Great Wall etc) and just stick with the established players. It's probably quite difficult today to buy a genuinely bad car, so criteria for consideration can be:
styling
performance, emissions and fuel consumption
driving experience
packaging
build quality
value/depreciation
I got what they were saying about Peugeot (although they didn't actually say it was the worst) having grown up in the 80s and 90s with the 05 and 06 series cars and their pretty Pininfarina styling and sporty driving dynamics and at one point, as a 205 GTi owner I was a massive Peugeot fanboy but for some reason (and it may have started with the 307), they decided to turn their back on all that. Having said that, there's still something quite chic about a small French (or Italian car) compared to a small Ford/Vauxhall and the 208 looks pretty good if not best in class. The GTi is supposed to be pretty good and even the 308 is not a bad looking car now but probably not a car that many people will buy!
A lot of the weaker car manufacturers (Renault, Fiat etc) still make good small cars but not big ones, so maybe being able to make an attractive, fun small car is a good indicator of whether a manufacturer is any good or not?
On this basis, I would nominate Hyundai and Vauxhall, as the i10/i20 and Agila/Corsa are all utterly bland and joyless and with a couple of exceptions (Santa Fe and VXR8), none of their other products do anything for me either or offer any obvious advantages over the competition. Having said that, I have looked at Hyundai on the last two occasions that I have bought a car and they do offer good value and excellent levels of equipment and warranty but for me, even the "sporty" ones (Veloster) feel too "white goods".
Perhaps I am being unfair to Hyundai and Vauxhall then? It hurts me to say it, as I love and have owned and enjoyed fast Imprezas but what do Subaru currently offer? No Legacy, a non-existent Impreza range, an utterly bland and conventional Forester and yes, they do have the BRZ which they did most of the engineering development on but Toyota screwed them on the marketing and production i.e. you're more likely to be able to get hold of and get a better deal on a GT86, so why would you buy the Subaru version, unless you absolutely had to have bright blue! The rest of the range is pretty bland in the styling department whilst offering poor value and uncompetitive performance, fuel economy and emissions.
Any thoughts?
styling
performance, emissions and fuel consumption
driving experience
packaging
build quality
value/depreciation
I got what they were saying about Peugeot (although they didn't actually say it was the worst) having grown up in the 80s and 90s with the 05 and 06 series cars and their pretty Pininfarina styling and sporty driving dynamics and at one point, as a 205 GTi owner I was a massive Peugeot fanboy but for some reason (and it may have started with the 307), they decided to turn their back on all that. Having said that, there's still something quite chic about a small French (or Italian car) compared to a small Ford/Vauxhall and the 208 looks pretty good if not best in class. The GTi is supposed to be pretty good and even the 308 is not a bad looking car now but probably not a car that many people will buy!
A lot of the weaker car manufacturers (Renault, Fiat etc) still make good small cars but not big ones, so maybe being able to make an attractive, fun small car is a good indicator of whether a manufacturer is any good or not?
On this basis, I would nominate Hyundai and Vauxhall, as the i10/i20 and Agila/Corsa are all utterly bland and joyless and with a couple of exceptions (Santa Fe and VXR8), none of their other products do anything for me either or offer any obvious advantages over the competition. Having said that, I have looked at Hyundai on the last two occasions that I have bought a car and they do offer good value and excellent levels of equipment and warranty but for me, even the "sporty" ones (Veloster) feel too "white goods".
Perhaps I am being unfair to Hyundai and Vauxhall then? It hurts me to say it, as I love and have owned and enjoyed fast Imprezas but what do Subaru currently offer? No Legacy, a non-existent Impreza range, an utterly bland and conventional Forester and yes, they do have the BRZ which they did most of the engineering development on but Toyota screwed them on the marketing and production i.e. you're more likely to be able to get hold of and get a better deal on a GT86, so why would you buy the Subaru version, unless you absolutely had to have bright blue! The rest of the range is pretty bland in the styling department whilst offering poor value and uncompetitive performance, fuel economy and emissions.
Any thoughts?
ferrariF50lover said:
Mitsubishi do the ASX, which, in 2.0TDi form, is a genuinely decent motor.
Don't forget about the Evo! I thought that the Colt was supposed to be decent too but according to the UK website it has sold out! If you think the range on offer from Mitsubishi in the UK is poor though, it's even more limited in North America. No Shogun or L200 in a continent where the SUV/pickup truck market is huge! I think this may be thanks in part to the "chicken tax" though (google it), which places huge import taxes on any SUVs/trucks not manufactured in North America. Toyota, Honda and Nissan get around this by having factories in USA/Canada and subsequently have much more extensive and interesting ranges. Mitsubishi do offer a 10 year warranty here though. How do they make any money?mph1977 said:
US Chevrolet or Daewoolet ?
the DAEwoolets it;s becasue they are GMs worldwide bargain basement brand and the US ones it's just because the USDM lags behind on such things ...
In their defence, in the UK pretty crap yes but in North America you have the new Impala, Camaro and C7 Corvette Stingray. All great cars. I have driven the latest Impala and it stands up well to anything German in terms of quality and the driving experience. How does a 3.6 V6 with 300bhp sound? Their SUVs are decent too and the Silverado pickup, arguably the best of the big three (Ford, GM, Dodge).the DAEwoolets it;s becasue they are GMs worldwide bargain basement brand and the US ones it's just because the USDM lags behind on such things ...
http://www.gm.ca/gm/english/vehicles/chevrolet/#
The Buick and Cadillac models on offer from GM are pretty decent too.
Mitsubishi seem to be getting quite a kicking on here! I briefly considered a current shape non-Evo Lancer as a runabout recently, as they're something a bit different and look quite sporty and cool (never driven one though). Some of the lowlier models look quite similar to an Evo too (not sure if this is a good or a bad thing). The dealership I was dealing with couldn't be bothered to return my calls though, so I bought a Honda Civic instead. Weird!
Are they really that bad? 20 years ago, they were probably pretty decent cars compared to most of the dross that Ford and Vauxhall were churning out in the mid-90s but whereas Ford (and to a lesser extent Vauxhall) have come on in leaps and bounds in the last 20 years, Mitsubishi haven't really.
Really surprised that Subaru hasn't been mentioned more, as they have gone from hero to zero in my opinion.
Are they really that bad? 20 years ago, they were probably pretty decent cars compared to most of the dross that Ford and Vauxhall were churning out in the mid-90s but whereas Ford (and to a lesser extent Vauxhall) have come on in leaps and bounds in the last 20 years, Mitsubishi haven't really.
Really surprised that Subaru hasn't been mentioned more, as they have gone from hero to zero in my opinion.
bazza white said:
For something different ill go for Aston martin.
Evolution just seems to slow, just a few tweaks and no real steps forward. Even the different models look the same just either stretched or squashed a bit.
If this is not allowed I'll refer back to Peugeot.
I get your point but really? Yes, the styling hasn't moved on much in the last 10 years but it's not a bad look (better than Porsche trying to make everything look like a 911) and Bond's new car (DB10) looks different but worse IMHO. the Lagonda looks pretty tasty too!Evolution just seems to slow, just a few tweaks and no real steps forward. Even the different models look the same just either stretched or squashed a bit.
If this is not allowed I'll refer back to Peugeot.
would you genuinely rather have a new Mitsubishi over a new Aston Martin?
Johnnytheboy said:
Chrysler Dodge
/thread
Not so fast! I'll grant you the Chrysler badge has zero image in the UK and not much in the US to be honest but are the cars really that bad? First up, we have the Chrysler 300/thread
which is a distinctive and decent, cheaper alternative to something German. If you yearn for the days of big RWD Fords, Vauxhalls and Rovers, this is probably the car for you...oh, and you can get it with a Hemi, which is probably the coolest sounding engine ever!
Next, the Grand Voyager. Yes, the full-size MPV market in the UK is not a big one but this is arguably the biggest and the best. Yes, I would probably rather try and make something sportier like an SMAX work but if you have 3+ kids and value space and practicality over all else, this is your car. In North America, this car and its cheaper Dodge equivalent is so popular (they are literally everywhere) that Ford and GM have given up trying to compete. People are trending towards more stylish SUVs/crossovers over there too but the Grand Voyager is still King in terms of value, space and practicality.
Lastly, the less said about the Ypsilon the better. If it had a Lancia badge it might be considered as quite chic but it doesn't, so just no!
Interestingly, the Ypsilon isn't sold in North America but Chrysler still have only a 3 car range (the other being the Chrysler 200, which is a dull but decent Ford Mondeo-sized competitor).
To be fair, when could you last buy a new Dodge in the UK? In North America, perhaps a bad comparison but consider Dodge as the MG to Chrysler's Rover. Dodge has quite a muscle car heritage and IMHO, most Dodge vehicles look better than their competitors from Ford and GM.
Dodge Dart (a Focus rival based on an Alfa Romeo Giulietta but better looking, although the interior is pretty nasty).
Dodge Charger - if you don't get nicked by a Crown Vic, it'll probably be by a Hemi-powered Charger!
Dodge Challenger - arguably the best looking and definitely the most practical of the modern muscle cars.
Viper - more outlandish and somehow way cooler than the Corvette.
Ram 1500 - the coolest pickup truck out there!
Dodge Durango - a rather handsome Jeep-based 7-seater SUV.
And lets not also conveniently forget that Jeep are part of Chrysler Dodge
Chrysler Dodge Jeep have the worst range of cars. Really?
joshc said:
I think it's hard to defend Chrysler/dodge/jeep, because by and large, their cars are unsuitable for the UK market when compared with the competitors that are cheaper to buy and more economical to run, and also better products in other ways. You can get massive discounts off them new, but only because nobody wants them - and even still, they're an awful new buy because you'll lose out massively on depreciation vs most of the competitors that will keep their value better. So I don't think you can win if you buy a Chrysler/dodge/jeep product in the UK.
That's also true but are Jeep residuals (and I'm talking the new-style Grand Cherokee and the Wrangler) rather than some of the older models really that bad? I would take a Grand Cherokee any day over the equivalent Land Rover.joshc said:
Interesting that nobody has mentioned Nissan...yes they've got the Quashqai, but apart from that they've gone way downhill when you compare with their earlier efforts. The Renault association killed anything good they had going.
Isn't the Juke pretty popular and don't forget the 370Z and GTR. With regards to Suzuki, yes I'm surprised that they haven't been mentioned too. Swift is a decent little car and the Grand Vitara was always a decent budget SUV. Isn't there a new one coming out?fivepointnine said:
Back home in the US, Chrysler products have dismal reliability, poor fit and finish and horrible residual values (Jeeps Wranglers and Grand Cherokees are the exceptions)
Chrysler 300/Chargers and Challengers are normally poorly maintained with 24" chrome rims on them, the dealers had to massively discount the dart to sell them, the 200 is a hire car special.
There is a new Chrysler 200!Chrysler 300/Chargers and Challengers are normally poorly maintained with 24" chrome rims on them, the dealers had to massively discount the dart to sell them, the 200 is a hire car special.
http://www.chrysler.ca/en/2015/200/overview
Monkeylegend said:
Chaps and chapesses, I think I've sussed out what happened to 300bhp.
Good to see nobody knocking Mercedes.
Haha, sorry to disappoint but I am not he! Just moved to Canada in 2013 and American cars (particularly new ones) are a lot better than I thought and I wanted to provide a more balanced view. Owned a 2001 Grand Cherokee and a 2004 Chrysler Sebring initially (both decent cars), although now have a newer Toyota and a Honda (not really through choice but budget). My brother-in-law has a 2011 new-style Grand Cherokee, which is lovely and much nicer than a Freelander. Wrangler is probably more than a match for a Defender off-road (and just as crude on it) and has the added benefit of a standard soft top. Maybe not quite as practical though (a Ford/Chevrolet/Dodge pickup is the farmer's choice). Good to see nobody knocking Mercedes.
I've been keeping a tally and it seems like Vauxhall have overtaken Mitsubishi as the worst range! Surprising, as they have a relatively large range and the Corsa and Astra still sell fairly well and I wouldn't say they were bad cars, just a bit unexceptional i.e. I can't think of a single Vauxhall that I would pick over something else comparable in its class. They also have VXR. Performance hatches and saloons with plenty of power and manual gearboxes, presumably aimed at people like us. Having said that, personally I find the Corsa and Astra VXR a bit too chintzy and the VXR8 certainly appeals and I think that if I drove one I would like it but 50k seems like a lot of money for a car with a Vauxhall badge and an interior worthy of a 15k car. The last new Vauxhall that really interested me was the Monaro (and that was a Holden).
Just behind Mitsubishi in 2nd place, we have Fiat and Chrysler Dodge (ironic as they are the same company) and then Chevrolet and Toyota.
In Chevrolet Europe's defence, the Chevrolet range is exactly the same as the US one (we just don't get some of the more exoensive, interesting stuff) and I'm not sure whether you have been able to buy a new Daewoo-badged Chevrolet for about 5 years now i.e. the latest Spark, Aveo, Cruze and Trax are all GM Chevrolet products? Although I wouldn't personally buy one of these cars, I would say they are easily a match for their equivalent Vauxhall products in terms of quality and driving.
Just behind Mitsubishi in 2nd place, we have Fiat and Chrysler Dodge (ironic as they are the same company) and then Chevrolet and Toyota.
In Chevrolet Europe's defence, the Chevrolet range is exactly the same as the US one (we just don't get some of the more exoensive, interesting stuff) and I'm not sure whether you have been able to buy a new Daewoo-badged Chevrolet for about 5 years now i.e. the latest Spark, Aveo, Cruze and Trax are all GM Chevrolet products? Although I wouldn't personally buy one of these cars, I would say they are easily a match for their equivalent Vauxhall products in terms of quality and driving.
Crafty_ said:
Its because people have blind badge hate. The reality is Vauxhalls are no better or worse than anything else out there. But because PH has to slavishly follow every word that Clarkson says we must slag them off at every given opportunity.
Is that true? 25 years ago, mk5 Escorts and mk3 Fiestas were quite rightlly being criticized for being sub-par and dissolving right in front of your eyes. Ford managed to turn their poor image around and now if you're in the market for a Fiesta, Focus or Mondeo-sized car these three vehicles are all a solid choice. Would I buy a Corsa or Astra if I was in the market for that class of car? Probably not. The only mainstream model in the Vauxhall range that has some appeal to me is the Insignia but I would probably only consider one if I couldn't afford the equivalent Ford, VW, Honda or Mazda.That's just my opinion and in isolation, my opinion doesn't really matter but obviously others feel the same. I'm not anti-Vauxhall, as 15+ years ago, I would have picked a Vauxhall over a Ford any day (and did, my first car was a mk3 Astra, which I think was a far nicer car than the mk5 Escort I also looked at) and I happen to have a soft spot for the Vectra B for some reason!
As for the hire car roulette. Yes, I hear the Mirage is pretty poor but you're never going to book a Mirage and get a VXR8! Being sensible, I would choose a Colt, Lancer or ASX over a Corsa, Astra or Mokka any day in this situation and would be least enthusiastic at the car hire place if I was given the keys for a Vauxhall, Hyundai, Peugeot or non-DS Citroen!
Crafty_ said:
When I bought my astra I had a few people who said "why did you buy one of those?"
Why not I asked. Other than "Well its a Vauxhall innit, hurr hurr" they can't actually give me a good reason - its the Clarkson effect, they all watch(ed) Top Gear and basically take what the bloke says as gospel because "he knows about cars"
. They are equally perplexed when they find out that I, as "someone who likes cars" don't watch it.
I've thrown the keys to people and they've honestly been quite surprised. I also met quite a few people doing the VXR track days who had come along with a friend and were quite surprised at how the cars handled track stuff.
Its all about perception. Do their cars go wrong? sure. Do the base models look a bit poo ? absolutely. Show me another manufacturer where these things aren't true. I have two mates in the trade, one at Vauxhall and one at Audi - guess which one is pulling engines/gearboxes on a regular basis ? Guess which one has unhappy customers with the "I don't expect this of a <brand>" being the most often heard phrase at the service desk ?
My astra has done okay on the depreciation front and although I'm moving on to another brand I still quite like it for what it is. A headlight bulb and a battery is all its cost me over 90k. I cannot complain at all.
As someone above said you've got a 200hp+ pocket rocket in the Corsa, a 280hp Astra, a big V6 turbo saloon and a large V8 saloon.
The Nurbugring corsa got a good write up from the press, the Astra also got good write ups. The Insignia VXR performance wise is a bit of a nearly new bargain and who else offers a big V8 saloon ?
But still, people deride Vauxhalls - I guess it makes them feel good about their own car choice.
If the exact same car came with a different badge people would rave about them.
Sorry Crafty. I'm guessing you have a VXR and I'm sure it's more fun and a lot faster than my Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla. I can't really put my finger on it because the VXR range should hit the spot for me but it doesn't. If I was in the market for that type of car, I would probably need 5 doors, so Focus ST or Golf GTI. Likewise, if 3 doors would do, I would probably go Megane RS or Scirocco. I would like to have a go in a VXR and be proved wrong but I still think I would probably buy something else.Why not I asked. Other than "Well its a Vauxhall innit, hurr hurr" they can't actually give me a good reason - its the Clarkson effect, they all watch(ed) Top Gear and basically take what the bloke says as gospel because "he knows about cars"
. They are equally perplexed when they find out that I, as "someone who likes cars" don't watch it. I've thrown the keys to people and they've honestly been quite surprised. I also met quite a few people doing the VXR track days who had come along with a friend and were quite surprised at how the cars handled track stuff.
Its all about perception. Do their cars go wrong? sure. Do the base models look a bit poo ? absolutely. Show me another manufacturer where these things aren't true. I have two mates in the trade, one at Vauxhall and one at Audi - guess which one is pulling engines/gearboxes on a regular basis ? Guess which one has unhappy customers with the "I don't expect this of a <brand>" being the most often heard phrase at the service desk ?
My astra has done okay on the depreciation front and although I'm moving on to another brand I still quite like it for what it is. A headlight bulb and a battery is all its cost me over 90k. I cannot complain at all.
As someone above said you've got a 200hp+ pocket rocket in the Corsa, a 280hp Astra, a big V6 turbo saloon and a large V8 saloon.
The Nurbugring corsa got a good write up from the press, the Astra also got good write ups. The Insignia VXR performance wise is a bit of a nearly new bargain and who else offers a big V8 saloon ?
But still, people deride Vauxhalls - I guess it makes them feel good about their own car choice.
If the exact same car came with a different badge people would rave about them.
As I said, I'm not anti-Vauxhall at all and wouldn't question their reliability but I just find the non-VXR models too bland and the VXRs a bit shouty. There are plenty of Vauxhalls that I would have quite happily owned in the past and in fact my first car was a Vauxhall (mk3.5 Astra 1.4 LS). I was pretty happy with it at the time but it has to be said that every car that I have owned since has driven better (although not necessarily been more reliable) and I have never been tempted in the last 13 years since I sold that car and got a 205 GTi to go back to a Vauxhall. The only exception being one of these in this colour!
As for JC, I think he's a bit of an idiot (albeit sometimes an entertaining one), so would never go too much on his opinion, especially as he seems to change his opinion of certain cars very frequently and would doubtless hate most of the cars that I have owned!
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