Council Bankrupt/****ing money up a tree - Parking Ticket

[Ares]

I got a parking ticket last year. Filled in, issued, stuck to windscreen and 'yellow-striped-parking-vulture' scarpered all within 1 minute of the expiration time.

Now this was £50 (£25 if paid in 14 days). I could have just paid, but it got my goat...the warden had clearly filled the ticket in ahead of time (or had dicky/fiddled with equipment).


I contested the ticket. It was rejected.

I asked for proof of calibration. They refused.

I appealed. It was rejected.

I contacted the (left-leaning) Council CEO who confirmed the ticket stood, as they only have to give THREE minutes grace.

I pointed out they gave out one. They ignored me.

They sent me an NTO threatening legal action. I asked to be referred to the courts.

I got a tribunal notification. I asked for the case to be heard with all parties present (tribunal fortuitously happens to be less than a mile from my house).

They accepted.

I was asked for my 'case' - I sent one photograph and a 250 word/half page letter detail the facts.



......I then got the council's defence. A 127 page dossier, duplicated, detailing every possible map/street plan/picture/etc (but no calibration proof). The postage alone came to over £12.


All this in a case than is indefensible for them, given the three minutes/one minute admission.


The same council is claiming financial difficulties and blaming 'government cuts'.... I suspect something else may be wasting money. Thank got it's not my council.


Rant Over....

[Ares]

Issi said:

If he was, I bet you a pound that he was 'ONLY' a couple of minutes late.

One. You can send the pound to the Royal Manchester Children's Hospital. Thank you. ;-)

[Ares]

Pothole said:

Ares said:

I got a parking ticket last year. Filled in, issued, stuck to windscreen and 'yellow-striped-parking-vulture' scarpered all within 1 minute of the expiration time.

Now this was £50 (£25 if paid in 14 days). I could have just paid, but it got my goat...the warden had clearly filled the ticket in ahead of time (or had dicky/fiddled with equipment).


I contested the ticket. It was rejected.

I asked for proof of calibration. They refused.

I appealed. It was rejected.

I contacted the (left-leaning) Council CEO who confirmed the ticket stood, as they only have to give THREE minutes grace.

I pointed out they gave out one. They ignored me.

They sent me an NTO threatening legal action. I asked to be referred to the courts.

I got a tribunal notification. I asked for the case to be heard with all parties present (tribunal fortuitously happens to be less than a mile from my house).

They accepted.

I was asked for my 'case' - I sent one photograph and a 250 word/half page letter detail the facts.



......I then got the council's defence. A 127 page dossier, duplicated, detailing every possible map/street plan/picture/etc (but no calibration proof). The postage alone came to over £12.


All this in a case than is indefensible for them, given the three minutes/one minute admission.


The same council is claiming financial difficulties and blaming 'government cuts'.... I suspect something else may be wasting money. Thank got it's not my council.


Rant Over....

Why are you wasting every other council tax payer's money? Pay the ticket you thief!

Thief?

[Ares]

Zyp said:

I think the OP's point is that there's a 3 minute grace period but the PCN was timed just 1 minute after expiry.

I think some of you are being a little harsh on him.

We should know that 99.9% of PH'ers are all 100% legal, never break the law, never breach morality. They are like Mother Theresa in string-backed driving gloves.

[Ares]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Calibration of what?

The (time/timing on) equipment of the ticket issuing machine/PDA. I got there one minute after expiration (my bad...although mitigating circumstances). In that minute he completed, printed, issued and the ticket was there, in sealed bag stuck to my windscreen, all photos taken, and the warden/officer was half a dozen cars down the road.

Either he is quicker than Ernie, the fastest milkman in the West.....or something is hooky.

[Ares]

poing said:

So I assume your watch is synchronised to the local parking ticket people (not even going to guess what they are officially called this week) and checked daily? It was 1 minute over on that persons watch, but what if it was 1 minute under on your watch?

This is why there is a 3 minute margin. I think this is being increased by some councils to 10 minutes.

10 minutes is now law, as of midnight last Sunday.

[Ares]

Issi said:

PHmember said:

Issi said:

You know when the sign states 'parking limited for 1hr only'? Do you think it means 1hr only or 1hr and a few minutes?

Do you think the OP deliberately took ONE MINUTE extra just to be awkward? Prat.

Do you HONESTLY believe that he was only 60 seconds late? Gullible.

Why do you HONESTLY think I wasn't?

And do you HONESTLY think the CAPITALS strengthen your argument?

THEY DON'T ;-)

[Ares]

Twin2 said:

From what I've read, the ticket was issued 1 minute after the time had run out?

But when did OP actually return? If he's been there 1 minute after the warden would be around to give him the grace...

I did and he was. He even gave me the email address to appeal along with the helpful tips that he was 'only doing his job' and that we can't 'decide what laws to follow'.

[Ares]

OpulentBob said:

charltjr said:

Yep, I've found myself doing that.

I've been ticketed in that situation too.

I thought "bks, fair enough though, I'm the one who went over the time limit" and paid it.

Clearly I should have pissed many hours of my time and other people's time up the wall because it's so unfair. I wish I wasn't so weak.

+1

Was it a minute late according to your watch, or the ticket machine?

Personally, I think late is late, and if you know you're late - and, crucially, you weren't aware of the 3 minute grace period until AFTER you'd appealed, moaned, and then gone to the CEO of the Council (I bet you used the "I'll go to your boss" line on the parking officer?) - and you still carry on, then you can't complain about the costs. You instigated the appeal after you were caught overstaying your parking. The 3 minute grace thing didn't become apparant until after you'd started the appeal, if I'm reading it right, so your argument that you were within time is wrong.

(You = OP, obv)

My original argument was that the ticket had clearly been issued before expiration. In the one minute that had passed, he couldn't possibly have completed all the details, taken the photos, issued the tickets and walking half-a-dozen car lengths.

I could see my car for best part of a minute before reaching it and he wasn't there.

[Ares]

daveinhampshire said:

In this case the OP was late, one minute is still over time, I'd have personally paid it than go through all that crap. Grace periods are discretionary, even if the council doesn't abide by them the ticket being out of time is undeniable.

But in this case it was.

You will know that you couldn't possibly have completed everything required within 60 seconds max. Either the equipment was hooky, or he was.

[Ares]

Pothole said:

Ares said:

OpulentBob said:

charltjr said:

Yep, I've found myself doing that.

I've been ticketed in that situation too.

I thought "bks, fair enough though, I'm the one who went over the time limit" and paid it.

Clearly I should have pissed many hours of my time and other people's time up the wall because it's so unfair. I wish I wasn't so weak.

+1

Was it a minute late according to your watch, or the ticket machine?

Personally, I think late is late, and if you know you're late - and, crucially, you weren't aware of the 3 minute grace period until AFTER you'd appealed, moaned, and then gone to the CEO of the Council (I bet you used the "I'll go to your boss" line on the parking officer?) - and you still carry on, then you can't complain about the costs. You instigated the appeal after you were caught overstaying your parking. The 3 minute grace thing didn't become apparant until after you'd started the appeal, if I'm reading it right, so your argument that you were within time is wrong.

(You = OP, obv)

My original argument was that the ticket had clearly been issued before expiration. In the one minute that had passed, he couldn't possibly have completed all the details, taken the photos, issued the tickets and walking half-a-dozen car lengths.

I could see my car for best part of a minute before reaching it and he wasn't there.

Your original argument on here was that the council wasted a load of money dealing with your complaint. They provided a full and complete response as far as they see it, running to 127 pages. (Really? I call custard test as you surely wouldn't have thrown that away, would you?)

I'm sure it's been raised but there is no such thing as absolute time. If the warden's watch is a bit fast, the parking ticket machine a bit out of sync with your watch, a mistake can easily occur. I don't know where you've got the idea that a warden has to wait until the time has expired before starting to write a ticket because I don't think that's ever been the case.

My original comment on here was the waste of time.
My original complaint to the council was the incompatibility of the timings.

And I'm afraid there is absolute time. Thats why these devices require calibration. Something that is being timed to the minute (to the second?) needs to ensure that either it is 100% accurate, or that sufficient leeway is given.

[Ares]

Otispunkmeyer said:

10 minutes grace seems reasonable to me, 3 is a bit tight fisted.

Reasonable.

Theres a word thats missing from many councils vocab. Along with the words:

Common
Sense
Logical
Value

And I am sure there are many more

"Customer'?

Seems to be missing from every Public Sector body in the UK...and ironically every 'Public Servant'.

[Ares]

Jagmanv12 said:

Pothole said:

I don't know where you've got the idea that a warden has to wait until the time has expired before starting to write a ticket because I don't think that's ever been the case.

Until the time has expired the parker has not overstayed and therefore should not be issued a ticket. Any attendant writing out tickets early should be dismissed for dishonesty.

Exactly!

[Ares]

......and this is before you factor in that by using 'PayByPhone' for on street parking, wardens get notifications of when cars are about to expire so they can catch them without resorting to 'luck'.

One step away from entrapment.


There was a time when Traffic Wardens were there to ensure traffic could flow. Now they are little more than council cash collectors.

[Ares]

xRIEx said:

Ares said:

......and this is before you factor in that by using 'PayByPhone' for on street parking, wardens get notifications of when cars are about to expire so they can catch them without resorting to 'luck'.

One step away from entrapment.

But the great thing about PayByPhone is you can extend the parking if you need to, without going back to your car.

....not at the end of 2 hours you can't!

[Ares]

Type R Tom said:

Does it matter when the ticket was written? Assuming it was printed after the time on your ticket ran out then there isn’t a problem. Bit like an email / txt etc. you can write it when you like but the sent time is at the top.

Do us a favour and post a pic of your P&D ticket and council issued parking ticket? Sorry OP, I just find it hard to except the circumstances you describe.

See above - no P&D ticket, all done via PbP app. But I'll dig that out, and the parking ticket.

[Ares]

Update. I won the appeal.

Moral of the story. Don't let councils take the piss.

[Ares]

sc0tt said:

Ares said:

Update. I won the appeal.

Moral of the story. Don't let councils take the piss.

Good For you mate. Do you get your costs back?

No. I could appeal, but I don't really have any.

Gave the £50 to charity too and suggested the council did likewise. They declined.

[Ares]

VolvoT5 said:

Ares said:

sc0tt said:

Ares said:

Update. I won the appeal.

Moral of the story. Don't let councils take the piss.

Good For you mate. Do you get your costs back?

No. I could appeal, but I don't really have any.

Gave the £50 to charity too and suggested the council did likewise. They declined.

to be fair they have probably pissed a few k up the wall trying to defend the case... so couldn't justify spending another £50 on moral grounds.

True. Thank god councils are not struggling for money.....