Is the 911 still the sports car King?

[white_goodman]

Not driven one yet and no doubt, it would be at least 10 times better than my Civic but it seems from what I have read in the motoring press and the opinion of other people that have driven it that the latest 911 has lost some of its edge and is not necessarily the "go to" driver's sports car/junior supercar with everyday useability any more. This seems like a shame, as it has always had a strong reputation as a driver's car and is probably the car that I have promised myself one day for the longest time. Porsche has pretty much had this market to itself for the majority of the last 50 years but now it has some seriously good competition for c.100k of your hard earned. Faster and more capable, yes and the availability of +2 seating is something that not many of its rivals offer and may be a clincher for some but my preference in a sports car would always be a manual transmission and it seems that the 911 is now geared up for PDK predominantly (I mean a 7-speed manual gearbox seems a bit unnecessary). So, if you were in the market for this type of vehicle, would you still buy the 911 or one of its rivals?



Porsche Cayman? I actually think the new one looks great and is arguably a better machine than the 911. I think of it now as a great model in its own right rather than a Boxster coupe/poor man's 911 and think I would probably have one in preference to a 911 now (especially a GTS/GT4). It's usefully cheaper than a 911 too.



Aston Martin Vantage? Getting old now but still looks stunning and sounds fantastic and possibly offers the involvement that the new 911 lacks?



Nissan GTR? Crushingly quick and capable, 4 seats and a comparative bargain but a bit uncouth maybe?



AMG GT? I have heard nothing but good things about this car. The first convincing Mercedes sports car for decades?



Audi R8? Does the everyday thing as well as/better than the 911 but with more power and AWD traction as standard. No manual option on the new one though. Boo!



Jaguar F-Type? The first serious Jaguar sports car since the E-Type?



BMW i8? A taste of tomorrow and makes a compelling case as an everyday car. 4 seats too?

[white_goodman]

Provided the 911 is In the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, it would surprise me if any hot hatch could keep pace with it unless it was very wet/slippery in anything other than a straight line.

[white_goodman]

kambites said:

I don't think the 911 has really been a sports car at all for a few generations now, let alone the "king".

It is still the king of the vaguely affordable 2+2 sports/GT hybrid type thing, though.

True. The original 911 was certainly a sports car though. I don't think we could agree on the sports car King. Some people would say that the MX5 doesn't have enough power, Elises/Caterhams are too compromised etc. The 911 seems to have universal appeal and make even the non-petrolhead go a bit gooey.

Why do still think the 911 is King of its class and better than all the other cars that I suggested? Evo magazine, who have slavishly worshipped the 911 from day one, seem to have really turned on the latest one and I have yet to hear a glowing review on this forum.

[white_goodman]

loose cannon said:

Megane trophy r ring time 7.54.36
Porsche 911 gt3 ring time 7.54.00
Ferrari f430 ring time 7.55.00

You might want to rethink that statement Tbh

Wow. Nurburgring lap times achieved by highly skilled factory drivers! Hardly representative of average drivers on the road. And the Megane Trophy R is a bit more extreme than the Golf R/M135i/A45 mentioned by others. My experience sharing track time with hot hatches and 911s, is that some of the hot hatches that overtook me were very quick but looked like they were being driven completely on the edge, whereas the 911s looked so planted and didn't even look like they were trying (I was driving my WRX Wagon)!

Anyway, I'm not sure how this developed into a 911 vs. fast hot hatch thread (re-reads OP)...

[white_goodman]

loose cannon said:

996 gt3 all the times are on the Nurburgring website
The fact remains a well driven modern hot hatch will not be trounced by a well driven 911
There was no statement on particular model 911
On the road you'd be spending more time rubbing Kurbs and cats eyes than pushing on in a new 911

I see the wolves are out! With regards to the lap times, I don't necessarily think that it would be any easier to extract that lap time from the Renault than the Porsche. On the road, you have a point, the more compact dimensions of a powerful hot hatch will help you make good progress on narrow roads but the Porsche (even a standard Carrera) does still have more power and torque than most hot hatches.

I always find the arguments about what's quicker cross country a bit irrelevant anyway because in reality, can you really drive with that level of commitment on the road? On the contrary, the answer to which is best is by no means foregone. Ten years ago, if you had asked me what car would you realistically like to own one day, I would have probably said a 911. Now, I'm not so sure I wouldn't buy one of the other cars in the OP instead but they have only really challenged the 911's dominance in these last 10 years. In addition, if I was in the market for a new 911, I would hardly buy a Golf R because I'm clearly looking for something a bit more "special" than a Golf, even if it is a very fast one.

Yes, many of those cars were in the Evo comparison but I'm not sure if they picked the right model (the Turbo) for comparison. Perhaps a Carrera S or GT3 might have been a more appropriate comparison? I would have liked to have seen how the F-Type and R8 faired in the mix too though (although I understand that the R8 is currently in between models). That's just the opinion of one (small) group of motoring journalists though. For the record, they rated all but the i8 above the 911.

I would be interested to garner the opinion of others on PH, especially those that have driven the new 911 and some of the other cars mentioned. Only one person (thanks Paddy n Murphy) has expressed an opinion on the original question, although as a 911 owner he admits that he may be a bit biased. Valid reasons given though to back up his opinion.

[white_goodman]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

if anything mine is even 'more of a Venn diagram compromise'.
The Marmite Targa.

oh and a 4wd 911 to boot !
Sacrilege !

I used to love my MX5 - get it back soon and hope to love it again - driving it 95% as a DD, and roof down 95% of those times.
I wanted / needed more of a 'Car' I could romp up to Glasgow - across to Manchester, take some luggage, and yet give the beans.

A 911 Conv would on paper be a good solution, yet with a little one incoming - and whilst the rear seats are a little on the comedy is in a Coupe, the Convertible ones are just silly. Plus the Hard tops are fugly, and whilst I was used to being mocked as a hairdresser, a rich gay hairdresser in a 911 was pushing my limits ........ and lets be honest 'bigger' or four seater Convertibles suffer from dreadful buffeting.
Anyway - the Targa. Light, Airey. roof slides on the hoof, Coupe rear seats, and the super useful hatch.

I do remember just after picking my 911 up, hitting the country roads I had been used to thrashing my MX5 around and I think even posted on PH how I just did not find the 911 when I got it as 'fast' or I couldn't 'peddle' it like my trusty steed of 15 years. All over the place. Missed the snickety snick gear change etc

But - As someone above said / says : they take time. The point and squirt novelty of the extra oomph of the 911 was obviously there, but it took time to really gel with it and be able to really crack on.

I remember reading years and years ago an article in what was then 'Car' magazine - and it timed with my Dad getting a new company car. Me being a lad thought the obvious progression from his Rover SD1 was obviously a Lancia Integrale , but the article was I recall 'the fastest A to B car on UK Roads' it had a FWD Lotus Elan, the Integrale, and the 911. (guessing a 993 ?)

Lap times, and all that jazz are not really what it is for me in the 911. There are better cars out there for any of its particular attributes but for many many years, a relatively subtle, relatively useful, and relatively swift car has not been found to better the 911 as a DD - again. IMHO.

Thanks. I think that has given me some insight. Nice car. I hadn't't actually realised that they made a 997 Targa! I think maybe I possibly understand why the motoring press have been a bit lukewarm towards the new 911 now though. Two words. Instant gratification! There is a new generation of affluent younger buyers who want a 911. After all, it's an iconic car and the benchmark in its sector. However, it is very unlikely that they will have driven a rear-engined car before, let alone a 911. Now, with most if not all of the alternatives listed, you can probably get in and drive them pretty fast indeed down a twisty road, as easily as you could a Golf R or fast Audi for instance. Now previously, if you did it in a 911, you might find that you go in to a corner too hot and it understeers, so you back off and the tail swings out and it tries to kill you! That didn't happen in the R8/GTR/Vantage you think. So guess what? You don't buy the 911. Now, the main criticisms seem to centre around the lack of feel in the steering and it not having some of the traditional 911 feel i.e. the feeling of the weight being concentrated at the rear and the light, bobbing front end. Objectively, the Porsche engineers have done a great job. It's faster and more competent than ever before (and faster around the Nurburgring) and you can get in and drive it with the level of commitment that you can the others without having any nasty moments or crashing but subjectively for those who love 911s, it has lost some of that feel that makes it so appealing. If you have never driven a 911 before and are used to an Audi-like driving experience i.e. no steering feel but you can get around most corners at most speeds without crashing then that doesn't bother you.

Do you want a car that feels fast and viceless out of the box or one where it takes time to gel with and get the best out of? That's the question? I can see both viewpoints but I imagine I may get bored with the first car relatively quickly and the second car might have more long-term appeal/reward. As for Nurburgring lap times, I don't have a problem with manufacturers developing handling/chassis setup on the Nurburgring but I do have problem with people hinging what car is faster/better on lap times rather than how the car feels/makes you feel/how much fun it is. I don't really care that a stripped-out Megane is a few tenths of a second quicker if to achieve that I am going to have to drive on the verge of having a very big accident (frightening rather than fun).

[white_goodman]

V8RX7 said:

Try one.

I always wanted one, read all about them and then bought one (an older air cooled one) and was bitterly disappointed.

I later bought an FD RX7 and absolutely love it.

If I never get to own a 911, I would be pretty happy with an FD RX7 to be fair. Loving your garage by the way. I would be ecstatic with that group of cars and none of them were super expensive I bet.

[white_goodman]

unpc said:

My last and only 911 was a 964 C2 and I've not had any desire for another since. The rot set in with the 993 IMO with its fat ass.

5 years ago there wasn't a lot of competition for the 911. Now there's loads. I have driven the i8 though and I'd argue that it's not the future. Left me stone cold. I'll have an F-Type coupe please.

Yes. The i8 impresses from an engineering point of view but I don't know if I could drop 100k on one with its 3 cylinder engine. A V8V or V8/V6 Supercharged F-Type seems far more visceral to me!

I actually quite like the rear view of the 993. It has that classic 911 look about it. The rear of the 996/997 looks crap and I quite like the rear of the 991 with those new lights but the front and side profile just look wrong!

Classic



964



993