My opinion on modern diesels. Do you agree?
Discussion
From my own personal experience I have found it cheaper running even large engined petrols as opposed to a modern diesel. The reason for this being the diesels I've had have all needed work doing including DMF, injectors, turbos, dpf and egr problems, etc.
I'm not talking about leasing a brand new diesel or buying a new one and using it as it's meant to be used (motorway style driving) I'm talking about the diesels a lot of people buy trying to 'save money' - the second hand, possibly clogged up diesel, some with expensive belt changes (TDI)
Personally I think it's a false economy and wish I'd just bought the v8 I wanted ages ago - especially something like a lexus which chances are just will not go wrong even at a ropey low second hand price.
Alright, some people swear by boras or octavia tdi's and the like, and I'm sure they are good cars if used properly and looked after well from new - you may be lucky and have one that's trouble free and does 55 to the gallon for years - great, but as we know this isn't always the case.
Am I right or am I wrong? Generally speaking....
I'm not talking about leasing a brand new diesel or buying a new one and using it as it's meant to be used (motorway style driving) I'm talking about the diesels a lot of people buy trying to 'save money' - the second hand, possibly clogged up diesel, some with expensive belt changes (TDI)
Personally I think it's a false economy and wish I'd just bought the v8 I wanted ages ago - especially something like a lexus which chances are just will not go wrong even at a ropey low second hand price.
Alright, some people swear by boras or octavia tdi's and the like, and I'm sure they are good cars if used properly and looked after well from new - you may be lucky and have one that's trouble free and does 55 to the gallon for years - great, but as we know this isn't always the case.
Am I right or am I wrong? Generally speaking....
I think knowing how it's been used previously before you bought it would be a bonus because you never know how it's been driven - a low mileage 10 year old diesel might of been used to go a few miles a day without heating up properly or it could of been used twice a week for a long ish motorway drive.
One diesel I had which didn't go wrong was my X reg Octavia, but I didn't really keep it long enough to be stung with a problem - the likelihood of having a problem with a second hand diesel is what puts me off another. Sure I'd love amazing economy, I do 350 odd miles a week or more, but in the case of my last two diesels I could of ran a 4.3 lexus V8 and be better off, even considering the halved fuel economy, and had a nicer driving experience in the process
One diesel I had which didn't go wrong was my X reg Octavia, but I didn't really keep it long enough to be stung with a problem - the likelihood of having a problem with a second hand diesel is what puts me off another. Sure I'd love amazing economy, I do 350 odd miles a week or more, but in the case of my last two diesels I could of ran a 4.3 lexus V8 and be better off, even considering the halved fuel economy, and had a nicer driving experience in the process
RicksAlfas said:
OP, don't forget that modern petrol engines are becoming far more complicated too...
This Is true, but comparing at present with say a ten year old mondeo 2.0 petrol with a ten year old 2.0 tdci - I know which I'd rather buy for cheap motoring... The diesel would be great if it didn't throw up any problems but there's less luck involved with the petrol example ZX10R NIN said:
I think it all depends on the car you buy in the first place the 05 CLK 270cdi I had as my daily sailed past 130K Needing only a suspension refresh new water pump & airflow meter I averaged 41.2mpg over 50k I know my 55AMG didn't get anywhere near that 21.8mpg & cost more to run.
My CLK320cdi is averaging 41.8mpg so far but no unwanted bills but it only has 53k on the clock.
I understand your point but it doesn't apply to every diesel car a lot do big mileages without a problem also buying a 2.0 tdi & only using it for short journeys will kill the DPF & your wallet, so buying the right engine for your needs is a big factor.
DMF's are on almost every manual car these days leaky injectors effects a lot of cars & with more petrol (coils packs failing on petrols) engines having turbos expect the same kind of problems to start effecting those to.
If your man maths means you can get a 430 Lexus then go for it
A dmf on a petrol is considerably less likely to fail however, but a common failure on dieselsMy CLK320cdi is averaging 41.8mpg so far but no unwanted bills but it only has 53k on the clock.
I understand your point but it doesn't apply to every diesel car a lot do big mileages without a problem also buying a 2.0 tdi & only using it for short journeys will kill the DPF & your wallet, so buying the right engine for your needs is a big factor.
DMF's are on almost every manual car these days leaky injectors effects a lot of cars & with more petrol (coils packs failing on petrols) engines having turbos expect the same kind of problems to start effecting those to.
If your man maths means you can get a 430 Lexus then go for it
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Friday 26th June 08:02
I see your point and of course I'd never buy a diesel to run to tesco and back in - but I'd buy it intending on doing big mileage not knowing what it's been doing before I bought it - big risk
Genuine and actual proven man maths might I add (especially if her indoors is listening!!)
apness said:
I do have a 10 year old diesel, owned from new. Not really interested in buying a new car (prefer to do any blasting about on the motorbike) as for the most part its a tool from a to b with reasonable turn of pace (150tdi Leon fr) but since it's just gone over 100k miles it's not going to be worth much to sell. That said it happily does 520+ miles to a tank before the light comes on and I don't hang about, for the most part. It has a few noises and gripes, but then so do I. The turbo went bang at 70k miles and it's coming up to another belt/pump change (end of month) but I've serviced it (every filter and oil) every 10k miles and otherwise it hasn't cost me much bar brakes and tyres. Oh, and a different interior. Golf seats. The Leon seats are shocking and wear out in less than 50k miles. Bolsters.
So it depends what you mean by 'modern' diesels. Mine was the last year (05) that I can remember before things started to get really complicated with sensors and filters and what not to reduce smog. When the warranty runs out on a modern vehicle I dread to think about all the dealers rubbing their hands to cash in on hapless owners having to shell out for work. Seen it already with cars needing the front bumper off to get to the headlights for a bulb. Bonkers.
If I need a car change will just get one through work on the fuel n go scheme. Pay a set fee and you just put fuel in. Then give the keys back at the end to get another, let them worry about the warning lights, depreciation and impending bills/doom.
I definitely would be weary of buying a new one now - I've thought about the lease scheme at work but there's only the choice of a Nissan quashqai or however you spell it, juke (puke) or note. I Like you would much rather hand the keys back and get a new one every year than worth about it myself... So it depends what you mean by 'modern' diesels. Mine was the last year (05) that I can remember before things started to get really complicated with sensors and filters and what not to reduce smog. When the warranty runs out on a modern vehicle I dread to think about all the dealers rubbing their hands to cash in on hapless owners having to shell out for work. Seen it already with cars needing the front bumper off to get to the headlights for a bulb. Bonkers.
If I need a car change will just get one through work on the fuel n go scheme. Pay a set fee and you just put fuel in. Then give the keys back at the end to get another, let them worry about the warning lights, depreciation and impending bills/doom.
I have been tempted recently by another VAG tdi, around the ten years old mark like the octavia I had, just got work and back, but been a bit scared by the potential bills. I suppose I don't want to spend time in a bland car for the fuel economy if it goes bad and I may as well off been in a massive luxobarge instead anyway
ZX10R NIN said:
I say get yourself into one of these:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
The reason I say this is because the 270cdi has the benefit of not having a DPF filter also being an auto no DMF issues either, as long as the gearbox fluids have been changed (£165 job over £100 in fluids & filters make sure you get genuine parts) they will just run.
They seem to knock out there electric booster at around 100k (this is a pre heater that means you get hot air within 20 secs of getting in the car) but it makes no difference to the car I never fixed mine.
Also there are no cambelts to worry about either so OP.
I will have a good look Into these, thanks for the advice! I've never been keen on mercs but it's better than the alternative a to b diesels especially if it doesn't break like one! http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
The reason I say this is because the 270cdi has the benefit of not having a DPF filter also being an auto no DMF issues either, as long as the gearbox fluids have been changed (£165 job over £100 in fluids & filters make sure you get genuine parts) they will just run.
They seem to knock out there electric booster at around 100k (this is a pre heater that means you get hot air within 20 secs of getting in the car) but it makes no difference to the car I never fixed mine.
Also there are no cambelts to worry about either so OP.
Smokehead said:
The only cheap diesel I've had were normally aspirated French cars, a Pug 205 and a Citroen ZX. Absolutely nothing to go wromg, not even electric windows, cheaper than walking, but couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding. Mind you I was in economise mode so performance wasn't even in the tick list.
My parents had an AX and if I remember rightly it was a 1.0 diesel non turbo!! I could be wrong... But it ran on fresh air! Literally a fiver would last forever... It did blow about on the motorway though Devil2575 said:
If you were comparing a diesel with a typical petrol i.e. not a V8 and you're only doing low to average miles then I agree. However most V8s are rather thirsty.
Diesels can throw up big bills but then so can a petrol car.
My wife ran a Mazda 6 diesel for 5 years and it didn't have any major bills due to failures, at least not ones that were the cars fault! We bought it when it was 5 years old as well. My diesel Focus is the same aside from a DMF failure but the savings on fuel more than made up for this.
If you don't do lots of miles and do lots of short runs buy a petrol, but don't try and convince yourself that a V8 will be cheaper to run
I am comparing them with typical petrols - I was just using the v8 to demonstrate how much money diesels have cost me in failed parts - It literally would of been cheaper to run a v8! Diesels can throw up big bills but then so can a petrol car.
My wife ran a Mazda 6 diesel for 5 years and it didn't have any major bills due to failures, at least not ones that were the cars fault! We bought it when it was 5 years old as well. My diesel Focus is the same aside from a DMF failure but the savings on fuel more than made up for this.
If you don't do lots of miles and do lots of short runs buy a petrol, but don't try and convince yourself that a V8 will be cheaper to run
Devil2575 said:
Except you have no idea what bills that V8 would have given you. I suspect you're working on the assumption that petrols never go wrong.
Even replacing generic suspension parts and a coil pack or 8 would of been cheaper seeing as my diesels needed suspension work as well - you never know what might go wrong on any car I agree, but with a diesel you have anything that could go wrong, plus all the diesel problems on top. I want to believe it would be better to drive an economical diesel, but if it only cost me slightly more to run a nice to drive big engined petrol then there's no contest - spending 2 hours a day behind the wheel for the last 5 years I wish I'd of bought a nice petrol ages before I did, but I've been suffering in bland mobiles for economy's sake... Or false economy!
Well one of the diesels wasn't bland - it was lovely, but that was the most costly of them all ha
apness said:
Well the scheme we get offered (Through Hitachi Capital) has a range of cars but all fall under I think 135kg of Co2 if you don't want your pants pulling down. Most expensive is £1500 a month for a specced up bluemotion merc. They tend to encourage the greener cars so things like electric cars and hybrids are cheaper - those Mitsu Outlander Hybrid things start at £250 a month just put fuel in and go, all else (maintenance, insurance etc) included and the BMW i3 starts at £270 or £340 for the Hybrid, which is ok for a 35 grand (or whatever after options) car. The Golf Hybrid is about £280 but the lead time is humungous on those I think. For a to b transport it's always an option, but I'd want a cheaper car I could enjoy myself in. Banger for a grand, big thirsty engine or turbo, a sticker on the dash saying "Dads car. Kids not allowed. Or wife."
My best mate is living his dream at the moment. Restores classic/yank cars for a living, has a Dodge Charger (68) with 475hp under the hood ready to go back together after a nut/bolt resto and full respray, just bought a Yank pickup v8 for a couple of grand, but day to day is a fiesta diesel which never gets washed or serviced and won't blow up. Which is odd seeing as the wifes tdci fiesta is a pile of crap that sometimes doesn't want to start and goes through exhausts (3 of those), coil springs (4 now) and clutches (3 in 75k) like you wouldn't believe. Shed.
Sounds like you have a much more interesting car scheme than we do! I think I'd do the same as you though, something cheap and interesting - the least you'd lose is the little money you'd paid and it's fun! My best mate is living his dream at the moment. Restores classic/yank cars for a living, has a Dodge Charger (68) with 475hp under the hood ready to go back together after a nut/bolt resto and full respray, just bought a Yank pickup v8 for a couple of grand, but day to day is a fiesta diesel which never gets washed or serviced and won't blow up. Which is odd seeing as the wifes tdci fiesta is a pile of crap that sometimes doesn't want to start and goes through exhausts (3 of those), coil springs (4 now) and clutches (3 in 75k) like you wouldn't believe. Shed.
It's funny how you can have two of the same car and one can be a pile of crap... I know a bloke who's got two dacias (yes, bad example I know...) one is fantastic and one is rubbish... Apparently one was made in a state of the art factory in eastern Europe and the other in North Africa if I remember rightly and apparently the North afrian ones aren't screwed together as well, perhaps this is the case with other manufacturers as well
ZX10R NIN said:
Haha!! Perhaps it's a bit of that.... Man maths at large! But....
When you take into account original purchase price - 5k for a 270 cdi merc, or 2k for a bmw 740 with an enthusiast ower and refreshed suspension and lots of love and care, the 3k saved can also be used for fuel!
I'll be honest, theres a bora highline that's caught my eye for the right price and I'm in need of another car - classic Saab needs to be for weekends really, panda 100hp is a bone shaker (Mrs car) and I got rid of my Alfa so I want every excuse possible not to buy the bland mobile and buy something more interesting, after being stung by diesels before! A merc might be a good compromise - and perhaps I'll get a v8 for occasional use if I find a daily that's cheap enough! I still maintain though that in the past I'd of been better off with petrol and this leads me to believe this will be true with my next car... Maybe I've been particularly unlucky but there does seem to be a trend
Edited by Ghost91 on Friday 26th June 09:18
This is making for rather interesting reading for me, and its good to hear of everyone's experiences!
Also to the post about Saabs, I've owned 4 previously - lesson learned! But as a young lad it was a good way to get decent power at an affordable insurance cost. I still own a classic 900 at the moment which I love though, but I wouldn't touch another 9-5, the dashboard was lit up constantly with some warning or other and my local specialist is rubbish
Also to the post about Saabs, I've owned 4 previously - lesson learned! But as a young lad it was a good way to get decent power at an affordable insurance cost. I still own a classic 900 at the moment which I love though, but I wouldn't touch another 9-5, the dashboard was lit up constantly with some warning or other and my local specialist is rubbish
willmagrath said:
I've had a diesel for 3 years now and yes I have had to change the DMF but most modern powerful petrols have them now too so it's no different. The cambelt has been changed, less than £350 and i've averaged 47mpg with very mixed driving. See 60mpg regularly on fast runs, close to 70 mpg in slower traffic.
Yes its a bit dull to drive but after a remap its now a type r beater and still returns great mpg
It is different because while new petrol cars have DMF's now, they aren't under the strain diesels are so they don't tend to ever need replacing like they do on a dieselYes its a bit dull to drive but after a remap its now a type r beater and still returns great mpg
What car is this if you don't mind me asking? They do go well enough, a remap always helps!
ZX10R NIN said:
Here's a good daily option still a 270 but a C Class so not as expensive (2.5K but haggle & you should get that down) as the CLK, again no DPF or DMF to worry about.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Thanks! Do you have any experience of driving a merc of this era yourself? http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
I'm not keen on the interior but then nor am I on the bora for roughly the same money, and more chance of having diesel-y problems.. It does seem like a good possible daily option, maybe not the best to drive but a compromise for the economy... Thinking carefully now about replacing my Saab 900 with something massive for a bit of fun driving at weekends and trips away, so that leaves me with a few more daily options.
I spend so much time driving that I can't decide whether A. Buy an economical car, as it will be a workhorse, try and get something comfy and not annoying to drive or B. I spend so much time driving so get something brilliant to drive/insanely comfy and refined, but obviously with option B, economy is at stake here.
Willy Nilly said:
Isn't it nice when things just work?
It certainly is! Maybe this is something I could think about as well. The garage where I've seen a bora tdi has a civic 2.2 diesel type S for a few hundred quid more (and about 55k miles more too).... The mileage put me off but I've literally never heard or read of any problems with these
ZX10R NIN said:
Yes I do have experience of the 270 I put 60K on my CLK 270 & had no issues I had to do the Gearbox service & changed the suspension for coilovers (I just couldn't help myself all I had to do was replace the £30 drop links) they are good cruisers, the interiors are nice & comfortable.
If you could find the extra then a facelifted 04 onwards version has a nicer interior.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Thanks for the advice, it's definitely something to consider now. I'll have a good look around on fleabay and auto trader to see what's around, wouldn't mind the facelift one as the interior is a massive improvement! I'll let you know how I get on, I've got a couple of test drives arranged tomorrow so I will try and add a 270 to the list. How do you find the auto box? There's a lad at work with a diesel clk on an '07 and he hates it but he has completely neglected his car, it's probably knackered, so I can't base any real opinion on his example. If you could find the extra then a facelifted 04 onwards version has a nicer interior.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
I must admit, for motorways I do like the way a diesel drives, and the way it delivers the power, in particular the TDI's are nice and smooth accelerating and even a 100bhp variant feels much much quicker and safer overtaking IMO than a 100bhp petrol.
I'd prefer to drive a 1.9 td than I would a small engines petrol, but overall, petrol wins for me, as long as the engine size is adequate or has a turbo I.e. The new fiestas.
All I can go by is my own personal experiences and they've been rubbish and expensive as far as diesels go but the previous poster mentions lots of reliable ones - much newer than I've had so perhaps they've got better
I'd prefer to drive a 1.9 td than I would a small engines petrol, but overall, petrol wins for me, as long as the engine size is adequate or has a turbo I.e. The new fiestas.
All I can go by is my own personal experiences and they've been rubbish and expensive as far as diesels go but the previous poster mentions lots of reliable ones - much newer than I've had so perhaps they've got better
ZX10R NIN said:
The auto is fine in fact it suits the car better than the manual, also remember (if you drive one tomorrow) that they will pull away in 2nd unless you have it on S.
I've found the auto box makes the car a more relaxing place to be & helps the miles slip by.
Test drove the C class yesterday, couldn't find a facelift nearby so it was a 52 plate. I have to say it was rather nice, relaxing is the right word - both myself and my OH are car hunting at the moment so we were in lots of different cars one after the other and I have to say it was among the nicest to drive on the dual carriageway. I haven't had an auto for a long time and on my daily I think it would be quite nice, plus 170 brake isn't bad!I've found the auto box makes the car a more relaxing place to be & helps the miles slip by.
I'm not hellbent on having one after that but it would sit a lot better with me knowing the dpf and dmf wouldn't be an issue! I think it would be a good daily to run alongside something a bit more unpractical. The one I test drove had receipts for the gearbox oil change this year too... Great recommendation, thanks
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