Hot Hatches or RWD Saloon?

[blearyeyedboy]

I'm interested to know what people would answer to the following question:

You have a trip across the Brecon Beacons and you're not in a hurry, so you can make detours to have as much fun as you like. You can pick up the keys to a pretty recent FWD 2 litre hot hatch or a RWD 4 pot petrol saloon. Which would you take?

Let's say you could have a recent Focus ST or a BMW 328i that isn't an M Sport variant. Or substitute for some relevant rival if you like.

Consider the following:

The traditional wisdom is that RWD + front engine is better than FWD.
A 4-pot saloon isn't going to have the cachet of a 6 cylinder one, but performance figures are going to be comparable to a hot hatch in which you'll probably get a 4 pot anyway. (6-7 seconds 0-60, top speed 140ish mph etc)

Should people looking for a fun practical car be steered towards a RWD saloon by wise PHers? Or are the current hot hatch breed more fun than more sober business saloons? I'm not looking to buy either right now. I'm just interested in sparking a discussion.

[blearyeyedboy]

^ For once, MX5 may be the right answer!

I suppose what I'm getting at here is that if you need a practical machine with rear seats and a useable boot, are hot hatches what they're cracked up to be or are more sober looking saloons actually more fun?

[blearyeyedboy]

DoubleSix said:

I'd take the 6cyl RWD hot hatch...

I can't imagine which one you mean... Who makes one of those? There aren't any posts on here about such a wondrous junior supercar at all.

I knew someone would bring up the M135i. I wondered whether to mention it or not because it's the obvious get-out to the scenario I mentioned. I suppose what surprises me is that there aren't many published comparisons of hot hatches with more traditional saloons for similar money.

[blearyeyedboy]

^ Another answer I was expecting. Against all sense/experience of PH, I was hoping we'd be a few lines further on before someone came up with them.

Has anyone had direct comparison of, say, a new-shape C Class* and a 2-litre FWD hatch?

*I don't want this to all be about BMW, after all.

Edited by blearyeyedboy on Friday 24th July 18:20

[blearyeyedboy]

DoubleSix said:

Nah not a fan of turbos!

Bloody awkward, aren't you? Who invited you to my thread?

You have a very good point. Let us mourn the passing of the NA RWD performance hatch.

[blearyeyedboy]

Robert Elise said:

odd question.
MX5 is the correct answer to the question you didn't ask. (or any other lightweight rwd sports car)

Not at all. Your average chap or chap-ess with a family and room for one car won't have room for a RWD sportscar in their life. So which compromise is the least compromising?

Robert Elise said:

Of the FWD, Renault certainly inspires more than most.

On that, we can agree. Of course, if you could live without rear doors then a GT86 is also possible.

alock said:

I'd go for the narrowest car. Most new cars these days are far too wide to be able to move around within the lane of a typical country road.

An excellent point. I'm dismayed how wide a lot of cars are these days.

[blearyeyedboy]

ging84 said:

is there an option where you don't have to go to Wales?

Go to whichever nice bit of B Road you fancy!

[blearyeyedboy]

mp3manager said:

The best of both worlds.

My new car outside my new gaff.

Excellent choice, sir.

[blearyeyedboy]

Yeah, I suppose the C class was a bad thing to mention by me. I was deliberately trying not to make this just about BMW... but until the XE launches the rest of that RWD group (C Class, IS300h) aren't famed for their sporting potential.

Basically, "Blearyeyedboy's original premise is wrong" seems to be the consensus of the group, and I'm OK with that.

I think the RX8 was a really good idea, hampered by using the wrong engine for these CO2 conscious times. (I'm not saying the rotary engine isn't any good, just that it was commercial suicide when CO2 emissions became important.) Mazda could do worse than to resurrect the concept without a rotary... but they'll never do that.

Hmm... buy a cheap RX8 and do an interesting engine transplant... I'm sure there's a thread about an interesting LS1 V8 transplant on here.

(Edited for mistyping)

Edited by blearyeyedboy on Friday 24th July 21:42

[blearyeyedboy]

^ Good for you. The point of the thread is to find a fun option with some real-world compromise though. So, for people needing rear seats, what would you suggest for similar mpney/resources? Seriously- I'm not being provocative but not everyone can have an Ariel Atom on their driveway.

[blearyeyedboy]

kiseca said:

The question suggests that which wheels get driven has the most influence over whether a car is fun to drive down a twisty road. I'd say that the rest of the car makes a much bigger difference and that I would not be able to answer the question only on the knowledge of what wheels are driven.

I've driven some utterly dull RWD cars, some were even BMWs.. and I've driven some very entertaining FWD cars too.

All other things being equal, RWD has more potential - for me because the front wheels can provide crisper feedback. In the modern world of power steering 2turns lock to lock and 245/35 front tyres though, I don't think that RWD has much of that advantafe left.

I know someone sooner or later will go on about tokyo drifts and such but on a b-road there're rarely any room and you can get a balanced FWD car just as sideways if you want and it's just as much fun.

Good post, I think. The original question I posed wasn't because I only care about RWD and FWD- I've driven both but all the ones I've bought with my own money are FWD. I just wondered if there was merit in thinking of less typical alternatives to a Golf GTi/Golf R. (Most people's replies seem to agree that I'm barking up the wrong tree though!)

[blearyeyedboy]

Toltec said:

Looks sporty, but may come with maintenance issues.

Are we still discussing RX8's?

[blearyeyedboy]

I think a modern 4 door BRZ/GT86 equivalent might find a lot of friends. Of course, you'd lose something from the Toyobaru (in torsional stiffness at least) but there might be a lot of people willing to sacrifice a *little* of the GT86's ability for more rear door access.

So far, out of all the replies, I'm loving that Civic FD2.

[blearyeyedboy]

Feel as unconstrained as you like in your choices! I suppose the only constraint I'm trying to force is practicality (rear seats, a boot, a roof, maybe rear doors). The reason I'm trying to provoke the conversation is to see what people think might be alternatives to a typical hot hatch for enthusiastic drivers who need a nod to practicality.

[blearyeyedboy]

otolith said:

blearyeyedboy said:

I think the RX8 was a really good idea, hampered by using the wrong engine for these CO2 conscious times. (I'm not saying the rotary engine isn't any good, just that it was commercial suicide when CO2 emissions became important.)

They did sell an awful lot of them for all that, far more than Nissan sold of the 350/370Z for example.

Yes, but that fell off a cliff once the top CO2 tax rates became applicable across Europe. Sales evaporated quicker than you could say "Ratners".

[blearyeyedboy]

300bhp/ton said:

Easy..

A mapped one of these:


Or this JE one if you are a bit more flushed with cash:


More grins than any hot hatch, can leave the tarmac and see over hedges/walls. And still a hoot to hustle.

300bhp's alive!

/brianblessed ;-)

Well, I've got to say that I've genuinely missed your contributions, 300. Welcome back. :-)

My original premise was, after all, to think of unexpected alternatives to a Golf GTi for someone who still needs a practical car. Not an easy daily driver for most drivers who have a right elbow, mind.

[blearyeyedboy]

DoubleSix said:

Still not sure what OP was going on about tbh as he mentions 6 cyls in the post does he not?? That's why I got involved.

If it were a choice between one turbo 4 and another turbo 4 i'd just fking walk i reckon.

Well, the point is that an awful lot of mid-sized saloons ARE four-pots these days, which is why I phrased the original post in the way I did. Late shape 328i's are turbo four-pots. I kind-of-deliberately-but-trying-not-to-try-too-hard wanted to deliberately make people stop thinking "Hmm, lovely straight-six, yup I'll have that please" and actually think about what alternatives there are to a modern-ish hot hatch these days for similar age/money.

I guess you'd better buy some decent shoes for walking.

I agree that it's a shame that the six-pots are rapidly dying out but that's the world we live in now. There are advantages beyond the faux-green credentials though: less weight between the front wheels can promote decent turn in. There are sacrifices for that though, as many posts on here understandably proclaim/protest.


I suppose I was trying to provoke a debate about possible alternatives to FWD hot hatches. They don't have to be particularly sober ones, but they do need a nod to practicality (shopping, sit some kids in the back etc) to make them feasible as a daily driver for your average Joe or Joanna.

Looking back, I wish I hadn't said "non-M Sport". The point about "non M-sport" was to try to separate off "sporty" styling, overly stiff suspension settings and too-big wheels for things that actually make a car fun to drive. Fill your boots if you want a non-sober RWD alternative.