UK Head of Tesla.... Impressive

[Ares]

Heard the UK Head of Tesla speak last night (having driven 250miles up from London in an 85D, totally free of cost and not set off fully charged).

Impressive guy and an impressive car as well as business model.

His middle of the range Model S hits 60 in 4 secs, the slightly hotter version does it in 2.8 secs.


But the free to use, supercharging network was something I didn't realise existed. Full charge in 20 mins and totally free to use/charge. True zero-cost motoring. The case for EVs gets stronger.

[Ares]

akirk said:

It is a good marketing exercise - but really, free motoring?
Of course it isn't - you are paying for it somewhere, and if Tesla is not going to go bankrupt you are either paying for it in the cost of the car, or it is a loss-leader to gain traction and once critical mass is hit there will be a cost... The electricity company is not donating their power free of charge...

there are lots of +ves / -ves about EVs, but that is a smoke an mirrors game

No, their supercharger network (23 sites in the UK, 300+ worldwide) is free to use. Free. As in no cost, for the lifetime of the car. And a full charge in 20mins.

Are you paying for it in the price of the car? The prices didn't go up when it was launched, but when the Model S is actually getting close to similar costs like for like with ICE competitors, its an increasingly compelling argument.

[Ares]

loose cannon said:

And I'm still yet to see how long this 0 to 60 performance lasts in conjunction with range ?
After say 3 bursts of performance what then is the range left over ?

He covered that. The Ludicrous option (2.8 secs) needs the range extender (i.e. 90kwh battery). The impact on using full acceleration 12-15 times would use the added benefit that brings - and that brings 6% increase in range.

Would 12/15 0-60 bursts in a similar sized car, capable of 0-60 in 2.8 use more than 6% of it's fossil fuel tank...? Can't say....no other similar car can do it. But I bet an RS6 would not be far off in fuel usage (just be 50% slower to 60...!)

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kambites said:

I increasing get the feeling that Tesla are running their entire car business as a loss leader.

He is. First profits due 2020 (with the arrival of the 3rd model, 2nd due next year - the SUV), but last night they said they should better than by a year or two.

....but thats not unusual for a new car manufacturer.



SpaceX might take a little longer

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Otispunkmeyer said:

I am a big EV fan, but I don't for one second think charging up will be free to use for any period of time other than now for the early adopters. Eventually we'll be paying similar prices to what we are now for full tank of fuel. This is already happening with some charge points (granted not the Tesla ones) but some points were basically charging you for parking and a fee for the electric that equated to around £5 a charge (or 80% charge as it is). When you get back to working the pence per mile. Its no cheaper than a decent diesel.

Given the crap state of the power generation in this country and all the stupid green subs, where is all this free electricity actually going to come from?

At some point it won't be free....but for the foreseeable it's contractual. Whether you consider the hidden cost as being inclusive of the purchase price, is largely irrelevant. You pay for the car, and fuel (and tax) are free.

Also bear in mind that these supercharging stations are charged when electricity is (near) zero cost anyway - think Economy7 on steroids. They have the power storage and output of "medium sized factories", thus the cost will be lower regardless.

As for the parking, if you club together the parking AND the electricity, then yes. But as you would need to pay the parking anyway, it isn't really a cost. Plus plenty of sites offset one against the other giving you either free charge, or free parking if you charge....and parking bays even closer than disabled spaces

[Ares]

jonny996 said:

Ares said:

akirk said:

It is a good marketing exercise - but really, free motoring?
Of course it isn't - you are paying for it somewhere, and if Tesla is not going to go bankrupt you are either paying for it in the cost of the car, or it is a loss-leader to gain traction and once critical mass is hit there will be a cost... The electricity company is not donating their power free of charge...

there are lots of +ves / -ves about EVs, but that is a smoke an mirrors game

No, their supercharger network (23 sites in the UK, 300+ worldwide) is free to use. Free. As in no cost, for the lifetime of the car. And a full charge in 20mins.

Are you paying for it in the price of the car? The prices didn't go up when it was launched, but when the Model S is actually getting close to similar costs like for like with ICE competitors, its an increasingly compelling argument.

it is not free, it will take most people an hour to drive to nearest point, then 20 mins to charge then an hour back. that's 2.5 hours & what is the range?

They (the free supercharging ones) are located on major arteries. The idea being, on long journeys, you would pass them anyway (perhaps with minimal route planning changes).

[Ares]

loose cannon said:

kambites said:

I'd be interested to see if you can find a video of the same from any of the competing ICE powered cars. It's just not something people do with a bloody great luxury saloon car.

Your missing the point I'm talking about the technology not the shape of the car,
I can go out on a Friday evening drive 200 odd miles including a fair few performance blasts and still come back with over half a tank of fuel leaving me with another 150 miles range show me a electric car that can do that !!!

Does your car have 700bhp and 700b/ft torque...and propel you to 60mph in 2.8 secs? If it doesn't, its not a comparison.

The only cars that can out accelerate this are the LaFerrari, 918 and P1 (just). Could they do 200 mile, including a chunk of performance blasts, and still leave you with half a tank/150miles range?

Could any sub four-second petrol car, get a 350 mile range with a lot of performance blasts?

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RobM77 said:

kambites said:

RobM77 said:

On a brighter note, I am seeing more and more Teslas as time goes by. I hadn't seen any this time last year, but I'm starting to spot about one a week now.

They're becoming pretty popular at work; there's a good five or something in the car park now, presumably all on the BIK company car scheme.

It's easy to see why, as the range is advertised as 250-odd miles, so all you'd need would be a charging point at home and preferably as work and that's most commuting and customer visits etc sorted. The problem is that it's only most... what do you do if you have a round trip of greater than that without a guaranteed charging point?.. Then there's the small matter of the cost of them - don't they start at around £50k?!

Most cities have 100s of charging points now, granted, ones you'd need to pay for.

But a smart meter at home, free supercharging ones on main arteries and you're covered. The supercharging ones are designed to counter your range-fears of doing a greater round trip.

As for the cost, look at the size and performance. What car actually can compete and come in cheaper? Now factor in the running costs, BIK and zero tax.

Like it or not, it's suddenly a compelling argument....hence why the Frankfurt motor show, the worlds biggest petrolhead show, was filled with EVs taking the headlines!

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KarlMac said:

When your as rich as Elon Musk it seems a sensible plan. Build a loss leader in the premium market (low numbers to minimise the loss), once your brand is firmly established as something other than a passing fad (remember Fisker?) you can sell a high end saloon/hatchback and get away with charging a premium.

Really like the Tesla. Seeing lots more around too.

He put his balls on the line. He may have made $9-figures from PayPal, but he sunk everything into SpaceX and Tesla. At one point he was days away from going bankrupt and had to borrow money to make payroll.

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kambites said:

RobM77 said:

And incidentally, surely loose cannon's point is only relevant for a drive of much over 200 miles? Unlike with a petrol or diesel car, with a Tesla your home is effectively the filling station, so in his example you'd come home, plug the car in and wake up with another 250 miles showing on the range?

Assuming one has somewhere convenient to charge it at home, yes.

Only the lucky have electricity at home? Where do you live...???? Even up here in the North we have electricity at almost every home.

....and if you've nowhere to park it, how do you manage with a current car.

Granted, some very low cost houses may have a parking space half a mile away, but they're not really target market for a £60k Exec saloon

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RobM77 said:

kambites said:

RobM77 said:

It's easy to see why, as the range is advertised as 250-odd miles, so all you'd need would be a charging point at home and preferably as work and that's most commuting and customer visits etc sorted. The problem is that it's only most... what do you do if you have a round trip of greater than that without a guaranteed charging point?.. Then there's the small matter of the cost of them - don't they start at around £50k?!

Very few people where I work use their company cars for business use. It's just a perk.

And I suppose at the weekend if they want to visit relatives more than 125 miles away, they just take their other half's car? Like owning a sports car I suppose. EVs will really take off if they can continue increasing that range, but crucially also make charging points more commonplace. On that note (or leaf? ), imagine if you were visiting relatives who also had a charging point? Instant doubling of range to go and see them for the day. I assume that it's the fear of being stuck with no charge that stops most people buying an EV.

These now break 300miles. Few journeys of 300miles will not pass a charging option, let alone a supercharging option. They worked out that you would have to try VERY hard to do more than 200 miles and no go within 10 miles of a supercharging station..... and they are opening one per week at the moment so that gets even easier.

But for some, the ability to drive 350/400 miles and over without stopping will rule an EV out. For now.

[Ares]

yonex said:

Ares said:

Heard the UK Head of Tesla speak last night (having driven 250miles up from London in an 85D, totally free of cost and not set off fully charged).

Impressive guy and an impressive car as well as business model.

His middle of the range Model S hits 60 in 4 secs, the slightly hotter version does it in 2.8 secs.


But the free to use, supercharging network was something I didn't realise existed. Full charge in 20 mins and totally free to use/charge. True zero-cost motoring. The case for EVs gets stronger.

Impressive guy?

Yes totally free of cost, save for the £100,000 needed to buy one, tyres etc. Other than that absolutely free

Yes. A very impressive guy.

And free to run, not to buy. And the £100k is a fully loaded, top of the range model. They start under £60k. For that you *only* get a 5-second 0-60.

I can't think of many big luxury cars that are actually better value like-for-like?

[Ares]

walm said:

RobM77 said:

The elephant in the room is of course where the electricity comes from. On that note, does anyone know the true CO2 output of a Tesla, if charged in the UK? Genuine question; I've no idea if it's 1g/km or 200!

16g per kWh for nuclear.
300kw batteries which get you about 3 miles/kwh.
So 16g gets you 3 miles.
So roughly 5g/mile 3.3g/km.

The worst is coal at 900g/kWh so you need to multiply the above by c.50.

The average for the UK is I think 460g/kwh so roughly 100g/km.

Obviously the govt is trying to get more lower carbon power into the grid so that should improve.

True...but power is getting cleaner and fossils fuels will still be used far far more within the plastics and chemical sector.

[Ares]

kambites said:

loose cannon said:

and they don't currently work for the masses

That is where I think you're simply wrong. They very much do work for a large proportion of the masses. The only thing stopping them from taking huge market share is the price.

To offer a counter to your examples, of the people I know well enough to actually know, I do not know a single person who couldn't easily manage with only an EV and only one or two for whom it would be a significant inconvenience. At the rate things are going, I'm confident that 50% of the cars in the work car park will not have an ICE connected to the wheels within ten years.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 11:27

Even bigger thing stopping them is ignorance and prejudice.

Costs, like for like, the EV in Tesla's case is arguably CHEAPER than its competitors. That becomes the benchmark. Wait until Model-3 arrives, if they can replicate that economic case at £25k, it will be in reach for a hell of a lot of people.

[Ares]

kambites said:

AyBee said:

Ares said:

No, their supercharger network (23 sites in the UK, 300+ worldwide) is free to use. Free. As in no cost, for the lifetime of the car. And a full charge in 20mins.

Excellent - the UK is 243,610km² in area and there are 23 sites, we'll all be driving EVs in no time Compare that to c.8,500 petrol stations...

Compare c8,500 petrol stations to c1,000,000,000 plug sockets...

<chuckle>

[Ares]

kambites said:

Ares said:

Only the lucky have electricity at home? Where do you live...????

Oh, I have a nice double garage to keep both cars warm and dry and, if they were electric, charged (although admittedly it's currently full of bits of wood which are slowly turning into fitted wardrobes). A significant proportion of the UK's population park on the public road, though.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 11:47

Probably not those in the target market though!

....and a guy up the road has one of the Mitsu mini-SUV plug-in EVs. He parks on the road and has a cable going across the footpath (with a step shield over it) for the few hours, once per 10days he has to charge it.

[Ares]

kambites said:

Impasse said:

Domiciles with a driveway are in the minority

It's hard to get solid data, but reading between the lines of the last census I'm fairly certain that isn't true. It probably is true in large cities, but probably not across the UK as a whole.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 12:02

And most of the city dwellers are in apartment blocks where the inclusion of EV points will be a necessity within 5 mins. Already is with some planning authorities.

[Ares]

ewenm said:

Ares said:

kambites said:

RobM77 said:

And incidentally, surely loose cannon's point is only relevant for a drive of much over 200 miles? Unlike with a petrol or diesel car, with a Tesla your home is effectively the filling station, so in his example you'd come home, plug the car in and wake up with another 250 miles showing on the range?

Assuming one has somewhere convenient to charge it at home, yes.

Only the lucky have electricity at home? Where do you live...???? Even up here in the North we have electricity at almost every home.

....and if you've nowhere to park it, how do you manage with a current car.

Granted, some very low cost houses may have a parking space half a mile away, but they're not really target market for a £60k Exec saloon

So up there in the north, you must have noticed lots and lots of terraced houses with no off-street parking. What's the home-charging solution for them? I'm pretty sure extension cables trailed across the pavement is not acceptable. I'm pro-EV but there are significant issues with home-charging for a sizeable chunk of the population (including me!).

See previous comment. Target market (few terraced houses have £60k+ cars outside them as it is) ...and my neighbour with the Mitsu thing.

[Ares]

ewenm said:

Ares said:

See previous comment. Target market (few terraced houses have £60k+ cars outside them as it is) ...and my neighbour with the Mitsu thing.

I was thinking future mainstream uptake. A cable once every 10 days would be fine, but if it's lots of cables to lots of cars then it's not so fine (imagine the personal injury lawyers rubbing their hands with glee). I live in Bath - a relatively wealthy city yet still lots and lots of on-street parking and rarely in the same place every time.

It's a tricky problem to resolve for mainstream usage of EVs. It's not impossible but the early-adopter cable-across-the-pavement solution isn't going to work. For me, this is where government need to invest in their "green" future - induction charging in the road? Kerbside charging points?

But in a few years time, the infrastructure will be light years ahead. There are already hundred of kerb side charging points. Plus loads in supermarkets, NCP car parks, Private car parks. Most apartment blocks....and the EV is still embryonic in public uptake.

I have zero doubt that the infrastructure will keep ahead of the EV purchasing market.

[Ares]

kambites said:

Yeah for the foreseeable future, I think EVs are going to be pretty much only for the half of the population who have either a drive, a garage or a dedicated private parking space.

Musk must be devastated at that thought. *Only* 23,000,000 potential target customers in the UK......