What takes the bends better, an Elise or a classic Mini?
Discussion
I've owned a couple of Elise's and in my opinion, there's very little that can match the driving experience, especially when it comes to taking the bendy bits quickly. I have however always had an interest in modified mini's but never driven one, but hear they stick to the road like the proverbial to a blanket.
Is this really true or is it simply a case of looking through rose tinted specs from mini owners?
Is this really true or is it simply a case of looking through rose tinted specs from mini owners?
The thread wasn't really about which was faster around a track, just a comparison really about how a mini takes a bend compared to an Elise (of which I'm familiar with). I had, rather mistakenly by the look of things, been under the impression that a lightweight mini with the correct suspension and wheels could take the bendy bits at similar speeds to an Elise.
I agree with many comments made on this, the grin factor is the main thing these days. If you're chasing which is fastest or which is quickest, then its a never ending pursuit, and with each step up in performance, there's a fair argument to be had that you're losing out on the driveability.
I agree with many comments made on this, the grin factor is the main thing these days. If you're chasing which is fastest or which is quickest, then its a never ending pursuit, and with each step up in performance, there's a fair argument to be had that you're losing out on the driveability.
mwmackenzie said:
Elise, hands down! I have recently has a standard 2006 R53 Cooper S and now have a 2001 S2 Elise 135.
The mini I found pretty gash and the power delivery not very linear which wasn't that great mid corner when power might spike, it was on cheap tyres so the grip comparison is not really fair as the Elise gets Yoko AD07 and 08 and is now on Toyo SnowProxy's.
The Elise is far more predictable and easier to handle near the edge! On a spirited run when I bought the mini I managed to set the pads on fire and lose the brake pedal, as I was braking excessively not trusting the car (s
te tyres probably didn't help that either) again I don't know what pads the PO had fitted but they weren't up for a good thrashing, Elise is on Mintex 1144..
I know this is a completely one sided unfair comparison but I never gelled with the mini and didn't want to spend the cash on brakes, suspension and tyres to make it track friendly as I'd have also wanted to fiddle with the power and its delivery. I did however love the noise it made with the charger whining and the pops and bangs on lift off! It wasn't a bad place to sit either with all mod cons and creature comforts unlike the Elise, which on days like this make me question my sanity!
One thing the Elise is not, is easy to drive on the edge, once the back end goes its goodbye! The edge however, is a lot further away than almost anything else out there.The mini I found pretty gash and the power delivery not very linear which wasn't that great mid corner when power might spike, it was on cheap tyres so the grip comparison is not really fair as the Elise gets Yoko AD07 and 08 and is now on Toyo SnowProxy's.
The Elise is far more predictable and easier to handle near the edge! On a spirited run when I bought the mini I managed to set the pads on fire and lose the brake pedal, as I was braking excessively not trusting the car (s
te tyres probably didn't help that either) again I don't know what pads the PO had fitted but they weren't up for a good thrashing, Elise is on Mintex 1144.. I know this is a completely one sided unfair comparison but I never gelled with the mini and didn't want to spend the cash on brakes, suspension and tyres to make it track friendly as I'd have also wanted to fiddle with the power and its delivery. I did however love the noise it made with the charger whining and the pops and bangs on lift off! It wasn't a bad place to sit either with all mod cons and creature comforts unlike the Elise, which on days like this make me question my sanity!
We're also talking about a classic mini, not the BMW Mini which is a completely different prospect.
Edited by RowntreesCabana on Tuesday 1st December 18:45
RowntreesCabana said:
One thing the Elise is not, is easy to handle on the edge, once the back end goes its goodbye! The edge however, is a lot further away than almost anything else out there.
We're also talking about a classic mini, not the BMW Mini which is a completely different prospect.
We're also talking about a classic mini, not the BMW Mini which is a completely different prospect.
6joshh6 said:
Hi everyone, first post here, but I think I might be able to shed some light on things. I've never driven an elise but I have owned a mini for 4 years, and have done a lot of work on the suspension so I can probably add something in that respect.
First off, a lot of people seem to be confusing handling with road holding. Handling is how the car responds to driver inputs, such as steering, braking and acceleration,think understeer, oversteer, weight transfers etc. Roadholding is more about the maximum speed the car can corner at before it begins to lose grip. These are two separate things and quite important when you're comparing such different cars. For example, a standard mini on 145 section tyres handles quite nicely, in that it has sharp steering and predictable responses to differing steering inputs but the overall cornering speed will be quite low. A diesel mk4 golf would not handle as nicely, and would not respond as well to steering inputs due to the chronic understeer (even by mini standards) and yet it would almost certainly corner at a higher speed, given that it were driven by a competent driver. So bringing this back to the question, which would handle better? Well it depends on what you are after really. The Elise will have better weight distribution, has much more neutral handling as opposed to the understeer you get in a mini cornering at speed, and due to the track being over 20cm wider, will ultimately be more stable. However, at the very edge of both cars capabilities, the minis tendency to understeer probably means its handling is more accessible to people who are not used to mid engined, rear wheel drive cars.
In terms of roadholding an standard Elise would annihilate a standard mini, no questions asked. We're comparing a purpose built sports car to a 1950's design which was rushed to market, had variable parts quality and was not in any way optimised for cornering quickly. If you look at a standard mini you will notice that they have positive camber, which is there for no other reason than BMC/Leyland/Rover couldn't be bothered to sort it. The suspension cones used were supposed to be a stop gap solution until the hydrogas system was ready, and though an improved version was developed, it wasn't fitted to any production mini with the exception of the innocenti. The suspension on a standard mini is about as far removed from the suspension on an Elise as is possible.
Saying that however, the oversights made on production minis do leave an awful lot of potential for modification. As people have mentioned, the narrow wheels can be replaced with wider ones, which significantly improves cornering. I found that with 165 section sports tyres, and 5 inch wheels I could corner 10mph faster than on the standard 145 section and 4.5 inch wheels. I imagine that a set of road legal semi slicks (like the faster Elises) would also yield significant improvements in roadholding. An increase to 13x6" wheels would probably improve on this even more, providing you could get a soft enough compound to work with the low weight of a mini. If the lightest 13" alloys were used, there probably wouldn't be much difference in handling compared to standard steel wheels either. An adjustable suspension kit is easily available and again improves handling and roadholding significantly. If you corner weighted the mini you would also improve things. In defence of the the rather unique suspension cone system, this would probably be worth retaining for two reasons. Firstly, it doesn't require any strut braces for extra rigidity, unlike your average wishbone suspension set up. The later, and most common shells are made of a thicker gauge steel than the early ones and have a different subframe mounting system which is more than stiff enough for the job (as an aside, the early shells had a builders foam like material injected into various cavities to prevent water ingress, which was found to make the shell circa 10% stiffer!). Secondly, the fully independent suspension features cones with a progressive spring rate, which means that the cornering is very flat after the initial turn in, despite the short suspension travel. Although coil springs are available for a mini, they are more for comfort than performance. On smooth tarmac, the cones are more than adequate, although potholes will expose deficiencies in the smaller wheels, short travel suspension and poor bump steer characteristics.
Ultimately, with an extensive list of modifications, the mini can be made to corner very well indeed. However, when you factor in the need for a more powerful engine, and better brakes to exploit your new found cornering speed, the question of why would you bother unless you specifically want a fast mini, is one you'd have to decide for yourself. It is possible to make a mini capable of similar cornering to an elise, but the time and money involved would probably make it an awful lot easier to just save up and buy the Elise and have the satisfaction of having a very competent and reliable road car, as opposed to a mini which isn't really original any more, and only usable on a track. Basically it all comes down to what you want, a fun classic, or a dedicated sports car. Sorry about the essay
Thanks for that, top post and loads of useful information.First off, a lot of people seem to be confusing handling with road holding. Handling is how the car responds to driver inputs, such as steering, braking and acceleration,think understeer, oversteer, weight transfers etc. Roadholding is more about the maximum speed the car can corner at before it begins to lose grip. These are two separate things and quite important when you're comparing such different cars. For example, a standard mini on 145 section tyres handles quite nicely, in that it has sharp steering and predictable responses to differing steering inputs but the overall cornering speed will be quite low. A diesel mk4 golf would not handle as nicely, and would not respond as well to steering inputs due to the chronic understeer (even by mini standards) and yet it would almost certainly corner at a higher speed, given that it were driven by a competent driver. So bringing this back to the question, which would handle better? Well it depends on what you are after really. The Elise will have better weight distribution, has much more neutral handling as opposed to the understeer you get in a mini cornering at speed, and due to the track being over 20cm wider, will ultimately be more stable. However, at the very edge of both cars capabilities, the minis tendency to understeer probably means its handling is more accessible to people who are not used to mid engined, rear wheel drive cars.
In terms of roadholding an standard Elise would annihilate a standard mini, no questions asked. We're comparing a purpose built sports car to a 1950's design which was rushed to market, had variable parts quality and was not in any way optimised for cornering quickly. If you look at a standard mini you will notice that they have positive camber, which is there for no other reason than BMC/Leyland/Rover couldn't be bothered to sort it. The suspension cones used were supposed to be a stop gap solution until the hydrogas system was ready, and though an improved version was developed, it wasn't fitted to any production mini with the exception of the innocenti. The suspension on a standard mini is about as far removed from the suspension on an Elise as is possible.
Saying that however, the oversights made on production minis do leave an awful lot of potential for modification. As people have mentioned, the narrow wheels can be replaced with wider ones, which significantly improves cornering. I found that with 165 section sports tyres, and 5 inch wheels I could corner 10mph faster than on the standard 145 section and 4.5 inch wheels. I imagine that a set of road legal semi slicks (like the faster Elises) would also yield significant improvements in roadholding. An increase to 13x6" wheels would probably improve on this even more, providing you could get a soft enough compound to work with the low weight of a mini. If the lightest 13" alloys were used, there probably wouldn't be much difference in handling compared to standard steel wheels either. An adjustable suspension kit is easily available and again improves handling and roadholding significantly. If you corner weighted the mini you would also improve things. In defence of the the rather unique suspension cone system, this would probably be worth retaining for two reasons. Firstly, it doesn't require any strut braces for extra rigidity, unlike your average wishbone suspension set up. The later, and most common shells are made of a thicker gauge steel than the early ones and have a different subframe mounting system which is more than stiff enough for the job (as an aside, the early shells had a builders foam like material injected into various cavities to prevent water ingress, which was found to make the shell circa 10% stiffer!). Secondly, the fully independent suspension features cones with a progressive spring rate, which means that the cornering is very flat after the initial turn in, despite the short suspension travel. Although coil springs are available for a mini, they are more for comfort than performance. On smooth tarmac, the cones are more than adequate, although potholes will expose deficiencies in the smaller wheels, short travel suspension and poor bump steer characteristics.
Ultimately, with an extensive list of modifications, the mini can be made to corner very well indeed. However, when you factor in the need for a more powerful engine, and better brakes to exploit your new found cornering speed, the question of why would you bother unless you specifically want a fast mini, is one you'd have to decide for yourself. It is possible to make a mini capable of similar cornering to an elise, but the time and money involved would probably make it an awful lot easier to just save up and buy the Elise and have the satisfaction of having a very competent and reliable road car, as opposed to a mini which isn't really original any more, and only usable on a track. Basically it all comes down to what you want, a fun classic, or a dedicated sports car. Sorry about the essay
Outright speed hasn't really been a factor, fun is the key. Having owned two Elise's I can confidently say that they've been the most fun I've had on four wheels. The reason for the post was that I'd always expected them both to provide a similar level of fun, but with both having the ability to go around corners quickly. I'd not expected the little mini to compare evenly with the Elise, but had thought that the mini would stick to the road like glue, albeit carrying a lower speed through.
I'm in the process of a potential move and would be looking to sell my AMG, pocket some cash and buy something fun and cheap to run and I've always been a fan of classic mini's. I live in a semi rural location so plenty of little lanes and b roads to bomb about on.
Your post has given me plenty of valuable information, if I did end up with a mini I would be happy to throw a little money on wheels and suspension for a nice road setup.
Thanks again.
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