Subaru 22B or Lancia Integrale Evo 2?
Discussion
Interesting points of view, thanks.
I have actually owned both. The 22B does drive a lot better and is much faster but the Integrale is a true classic now and has an aura all of its own with some lovely details inside and out. Steering is exemplary in both cars but I forgot how rubbery the gearchange was in the Lancia - not a high point. 22B is a more demanding car to drive with an aggressive clutch, stiff ride and short gearing but feels every inch the road going rally car.
I read that they made 12,000 Integrale Evos (Evo1+ Evo2) versus 400 22Bs, so if rareity had anything to do with it the 22B would be worth far more. So I actually think the Lancia has a wider following and attracts the more traditional car collector, whereas the Subaru suffers a little from Japanese car stigma. I also think that will pass along with the stuffy old traditionalists. When the 'Playstation' generation get their hands on some more serious cash surely the 22B will begin to outstrip the Delta? Then again the Lancia's status as a rally icon is not going anywhere.
Neither the Evo 2 Integrales nor the 22B were ever rallied by their makers yet somehow this doesn't seem to affect values as much as I would expect. If it did, the Evo 1 Integrale would be worth more.
Either way the Mistsubishi Evo VI TME is looking like the bargain of the century, even at the current £20k+ for a good red one. Stunning rally pedigree and terrific to drive. Fortunately I already have one of those
But I'd also like a LHD car for trips to Europe.
I actually think the 22B is better value right now. Delta Evo 2s don't seem to be selling that fast at £45k but rarer versions still command healthy premiums. Very hard to call where it goes from here but down is the least likely of the two!
I have actually owned both. The 22B does drive a lot better and is much faster but the Integrale is a true classic now and has an aura all of its own with some lovely details inside and out. Steering is exemplary in both cars but I forgot how rubbery the gearchange was in the Lancia - not a high point. 22B is a more demanding car to drive with an aggressive clutch, stiff ride and short gearing but feels every inch the road going rally car.
I read that they made 12,000 Integrale Evos (Evo1+ Evo2) versus 400 22Bs, so if rareity had anything to do with it the 22B would be worth far more. So I actually think the Lancia has a wider following and attracts the more traditional car collector, whereas the Subaru suffers a little from Japanese car stigma. I also think that will pass along with the stuffy old traditionalists. When the 'Playstation' generation get their hands on some more serious cash surely the 22B will begin to outstrip the Delta? Then again the Lancia's status as a rally icon is not going anywhere.
Neither the Evo 2 Integrales nor the 22B were ever rallied by their makers yet somehow this doesn't seem to affect values as much as I would expect. If it did, the Evo 1 Integrale would be worth more.
Either way the Mistsubishi Evo VI TME is looking like the bargain of the century, even at the current £20k+ for a good red one. Stunning rally pedigree and terrific to drive. Fortunately I already have one of those
But I'd also like a LHD car for trips to Europe.I actually think the 22B is better value right now. Delta Evo 2s don't seem to be selling that fast at £45k but rarer versions still command healthy premiums. Very hard to call where it goes from here but down is the least likely of the two!
What's a hifi edition? never heard of that one.
Surely there's more room for appreciation (in every sense) in the orginal 8v Integrale? It was the first, achieved so much in the WRC, and was a brilliant road car. These days the difference between 185 and 215 bhp has shrunk to insiginificance. In fact the Deltas never got faster, the extra power was only there to compensate for the extra weight. The 8v Integrale also had more torque than the 16v. The hard part is finding a nice one but at £20k for the best example I've ever seen looks like terrific value to me. For what it's worth the 16v is the prettiest of all the Integrales and also great value (compared to the Evo2s) if you can find a nice one. The car above looks great on the bigger wheels but factory stock would do me just fine.
There's no question of the 22B being the faster, better car to drive. Steering is exquisite on both cars but the Subaru has a much more precise gearbox and other-worldly cornering ability. The flat four is also more charismatic with an exhaust in place. The Delta's four is commendably smooth and delicioiusly cammy in 8v form.
Surely there's more room for appreciation (in every sense) in the orginal 8v Integrale? It was the first, achieved so much in the WRC, and was a brilliant road car. These days the difference between 185 and 215 bhp has shrunk to insiginificance. In fact the Deltas never got faster, the extra power was only there to compensate for the extra weight. The 8v Integrale also had more torque than the 16v. The hard part is finding a nice one but at £20k for the best example I've ever seen looks like terrific value to me. For what it's worth the 16v is the prettiest of all the Integrales and also great value (compared to the Evo2s) if you can find a nice one. The car above looks great on the bigger wheels but factory stock would do me just fine.
There's no question of the 22B being the faster, better car to drive. Steering is exquisite on both cars but the Subaru has a much more precise gearbox and other-worldly cornering ability. The flat four is also more charismatic with an exhaust in place. The Delta's four is commendably smooth and delicioiusly cammy in 8v form.
Edited by twinturban on Sunday 7th February 11:37
cat with a hat said:
OP, why is the first question you ask about residual values?
Because I've owned both before so I know what they're like to drive.I've also lost money on every car I've owned to date. It's about time I started to reverse the trend.
Wanting to own a great car to drive that goes up in value. Nothing to be ashamed of there.
Whatever happens to the ludicrously over inflated upper end of the classic car market, cars like the best Integrales and 22Bs are not going to be going back down to £20k again. Good ones are too rare, they are too special to drive and look at and until petrol cars aren't allowed on the road anymore will always have a strong following. To be honest the 22B is worth £50k, it was hugely undervalued before thanks (in part) to the financial crisis. Same with the Integrale £45k for the best cars doesn't seem over inflated to me. If the values aren't jacked up excessively then they won't fall excessively when the market has its reality check.
Yes there are some dealers chancing their arm with Integrales but we'll see how long they hang around for. I'm not advocating paying over the odds.
Would I buy an Integrale over a 996 GT3 even if they were the same price? Personally yes, providing the Integrale was a perfect example. Mainly because I have no interest in the 996 GT3 whatsoever anyway. Plus they are over priced (and over rated in my opinion) so it's only right that their prices experience a correction.
I see no reason why a Subaru 22B shouldn't be worth £50k - again for a perfect example - the best RS500 Cosworths are worth twice that. Are they over valued? Hard to say, the best cars have been £65k for ages and only in the last few years have they crept up. Certainly the rwd Sapphire Cosworths are very undervalued along with the 8v and 16v Integrales, the trouble is finding a good one. But look what E30 M3s fetch currently! The Integrale Evos and RS500 Cosworths were just looked after better on the whole. I think the best 8v Integrale I've seen for sale in years was asking £20k. That is for the car that started it all and dominated the WRC. That's looking under valued to me because good 8v cars are rarer than good Evo 2s. Sure the demand is all about Evo 2, until recently the Evo 1 was lagging far behind, even now you can save £10k on an Evo 1 which is daft (especially as Lancia never rallied the Evo 2) but then the market usually is.
Would I buy an Integrale over a 996 GT3 even if they were the same price? Personally yes, providing the Integrale was a perfect example. Mainly because I have no interest in the 996 GT3 whatsoever anyway. Plus they are over priced (and over rated in my opinion) so it's only right that their prices experience a correction.
I see no reason why a Subaru 22B shouldn't be worth £50k - again for a perfect example - the best RS500 Cosworths are worth twice that. Are they over valued? Hard to say, the best cars have been £65k for ages and only in the last few years have they crept up. Certainly the rwd Sapphire Cosworths are very undervalued along with the 8v and 16v Integrales, the trouble is finding a good one. But look what E30 M3s fetch currently! The Integrale Evos and RS500 Cosworths were just looked after better on the whole. I think the best 8v Integrale I've seen for sale in years was asking £20k. That is for the car that started it all and dominated the WRC. That's looking under valued to me because good 8v cars are rarer than good Evo 2s. Sure the demand is all about Evo 2, until recently the Evo 1 was lagging far behind, even now you can save £10k on an Evo 1 which is daft (especially as Lancia never rallied the Evo 2) but then the market usually is.
Wow and people roll their eyes at a new Lotus special edition!
993 Turbo and Ferrari 348 might have more prestigious badges but are they really better to drive?
I'd far rather be in the ultimate Subaru than a disappointing Ferrari. I owned an F355 once. Never again. The 22B was hugely better to drive. Up to 130mph or so, quicker too.
And have you seen the prices of 993 Turbos lately?! I think we can rule them out straight away.
I sold a house in London in 2007 on the basis that the bubble simply had to burst. I timed it right before the financial crisis but that same properly would be worth another £400k now...
993 Turbo and Ferrari 348 might have more prestigious badges but are they really better to drive?
I'd far rather be in the ultimate Subaru than a disappointing Ferrari. I owned an F355 once. Never again. The 22B was hugely better to drive. Up to 130mph or so, quicker too.
And have you seen the prices of 993 Turbos lately?! I think we can rule them out straight away.
I sold a house in London in 2007 on the basis that the bubble simply had to burst. I timed it right before the financial crisis but that same properly would be worth another £400k now...
^^^ very well put.
I look forward to seeing some suggestions for better drivers cars for £45k. Cayman S? Numb, lifeless electric steering. Too multi-purpose to ever feel really special. Impressive but never truly exciting. A psycho tuned R33 GTR or Mitsubishi Evo IX would be but likely to be catastrophically expensive and lose perhaps even more money than the Cayman.
The Integrale's main limitation is the lack of top speed, so it doesn't easily or quickly get past 120mph. That might have been an issue back when we could go flat out from Calais to anywhere in Europe but those days are long gone. What matters is how the car feels and delivers below 120mph and in that the Integrale excels. Part of this is due to the exceptional steering the like of which is not found in any modern car. A Lotus Evora probably gets closest. I don't know what it is about rally cars but the 22B steering is exquisite too, quite light but stunningly detailed and precise. The Evo VI TME also has lovely steering too surprisingly. For anyone used to an electric system, a drive in an Integrale would be a revelation.
I look forward to seeing some suggestions for better drivers cars for £45k. Cayman S? Numb, lifeless electric steering. Too multi-purpose to ever feel really special. Impressive but never truly exciting. A psycho tuned R33 GTR or Mitsubishi Evo IX would be but likely to be catastrophically expensive and lose perhaps even more money than the Cayman.
The Integrale's main limitation is the lack of top speed, so it doesn't easily or quickly get past 120mph. That might have been an issue back when we could go flat out from Calais to anywhere in Europe but those days are long gone. What matters is how the car feels and delivers below 120mph and in that the Integrale excels. Part of this is due to the exceptional steering the like of which is not found in any modern car. A Lotus Evora probably gets closest. I don't know what it is about rally cars but the 22B steering is exquisite too, quite light but stunningly detailed and precise. The Evo VI TME also has lovely steering too surprisingly. For anyone used to an electric system, a drive in an Integrale would be a revelation.
Edited by twinturban on Wednesday 10th February 16:08
Nothing against RX-7s. It's all well and good wishing for £25k 22B's but that is well under what they're worth and was the price in a depressed market. Personally I wish they were all under £10k, we have to deal with what they're worth now. For those wishing for cheaper thrills they can drive the wheels off simply look for the 16v Integrale which is just as fast and the prettiest of the lot to my eyes. Then there are the Mitsubishi Evos which are still fantastic value at under £10k for a V or VI, less than that for a nice III or VI. Even better value are the Celica GT4s which also have tremendous rally pedigree then there's the likes of the Nissan GTiR.
The 4 cyl Exige is an exceptional driving tool and has continued to show cast iron residuals, but to the point where it's very hard to see how values can go up when the V6 models are coming down to a similar level. A very different driving experience to the Integrale but I grant you not a lesser one if you are sufficiently lithe and enjoy more manic thrills and lightening responses. In terms of practicality the Lancia and Subaru are in a different league of course. If trackdays are a consideration then the Exige would embarass pretty much anything from the 90's. Fortunately I already have trackdays covered.
The 4 cyl Exige is an exceptional driving tool and has continued to show cast iron residuals, but to the point where it's very hard to see how values can go up when the V6 models are coming down to a similar level. A very different driving experience to the Integrale but I grant you not a lesser one if you are sufficiently lithe and enjoy more manic thrills and lightening responses. In terms of practicality the Lancia and Subaru are in a different league of course. If trackdays are a consideration then the Exige would embarass pretty much anything from the 90's. Fortunately I already have trackdays covered.
Yup, I had an R34 GTR too. Fantastic wail with an after market pipe, but big and heavy next to the Integrale and 22B, and unlike them, feel detuned in standard form. A stage 1 tune just makes them feel like the factory intended. Personally I don't think the 4 wheel steering isn't a patch on the Lancia's and 22B's and mine went wierd on me once and that didn't inspire much confidence. The ride was brutally stiff on my V-Spec car which offered unusual track manners for such a heavy car but it was bone jarring on the road. They also made a lot of them, something like 40,000 R32 GTRs! But yes, a great choice and you could get something rarer like a V-Spec II for £45k and that ought to be a sound buy. The R34 in particular has risen quite strongly in recent years.
Surely an Integrale is a bit more special and I can't shake the feeling that a 22B has to be worth more in a few years? Once the guys in their 40's now reach retirement age I reckon the stigma towards Japanese cars will have all but disappeared.
Surely an Integrale is a bit more special and I can't shake the feeling that a 22B has to be worth more in a few years? Once the guys in their 40's now reach retirement age I reckon the stigma towards Japanese cars will have all but disappeared.
Really is a tricky decision. Head says 22B will surpass the Evo 2 in value one day. But I already have a TME and the 22B has more in common with that than the Lancia. LHD would also be great in Europe.
I genuinely love both cars and would have one of each parked next to the Mak if I had the means and the space.
I genuinely love both cars and would have one of each parked next to the Mak if I had the means and the space.
The other issue is finding a really sorted, well maintained Integrale. So many have either sat around doing nothing or have been maintained on the cheap, hence all the problems that many have reported. The unused one above would still need a fortune spent on it to get it into top notch order. Given that straight line speed isn't the big draw with an Integrale, the suspension needs to be thoroughly refreshed in my opinion to get the best out of the car.
Having been looking at a few different cars lately it's amazing how few have full service history, which I thought was a must with any older car. Dealers must keep finding people who don't care too much about stuff like that, amazing in itself. On average a 22B will have been better looked after, as have most of the special edition Integrales. The search goes on. I'd still love to find a mint 16v as I think they are the prettiest of all. I personally love the late 80's alcantara interior and the Evo cars are no faster (being heavier). But I just can't find a really good one. I have seen one 16v that looks absolutely amazing but it's been in Florida and is now on its way to Spain. It's very cheap and looks a bit too good to be true. The ad has also disappeared. The hassle of viewing in Spain and having to put a lot of trust in the dealer is just an extra headache.
Dealing with people like Steve at Walkers is just immediately reassuring, it's clear that they know the cars inside and out. Many of the other UK dealers are all a bit 'innit bruv' which has the opposite effect.
I'm going to see a few Evo 1s which I still think offer better value than the Evo 2 cars. Much as I like the red cam cover, it's not worth another £10-£15k for me.
Having been looking at a few different cars lately it's amazing how few have full service history, which I thought was a must with any older car. Dealers must keep finding people who don't care too much about stuff like that, amazing in itself. On average a 22B will have been better looked after, as have most of the special edition Integrales. The search goes on. I'd still love to find a mint 16v as I think they are the prettiest of all. I personally love the late 80's alcantara interior and the Evo cars are no faster (being heavier). But I just can't find a really good one. I have seen one 16v that looks absolutely amazing but it's been in Florida and is now on its way to Spain. It's very cheap and looks a bit too good to be true. The ad has also disappeared. The hassle of viewing in Spain and having to put a lot of trust in the dealer is just an extra headache.
Dealing with people like Steve at Walkers is just immediately reassuring, it's clear that they know the cars inside and out. Many of the other UK dealers are all a bit 'innit bruv' which has the opposite effect.
I'm going to see a few Evo 1s which I still think offer better value than the Evo 2 cars. Much as I like the red cam cover, it's not worth another £10-£15k for me.
Saw a few 'grales today. They are tiny but such pocket exotics, with such evocative details inside and out, they really are special cars. They ooze presence and stance. Absolutely stunning cars. Desirability is off the charts for me.
I'm sure nostalgia is playing its part but micro dimensions only adds to the appeal for me. There was a 458 Speciale nearby and that looked absolutely vast, excessively so in direct comparison.
I'm in favour an Evo 1 at the moment over the 22B even though I see more potential from a financial point of view in the 22B. Things are likely to get pretty rocky soon for a lot of people so I'm likely to be stuck with whatever I end up with. I seriously have no problem with that if it's either of these two monumentally cool cars. The 22B is a really special car thing in all respects but is more similar to my Evo VI, so the Integrale would better compliment what I already own. As long as it behaved itself I just don't think I'd ever stop smiling.
The biggest downside is turning down the rare chance to own a 22B.... aaaarrgggh... I really need to get a job hosting the Tonight Show and a big warehouse in LA!
I'm sure nostalgia is playing its part but micro dimensions only adds to the appeal for me. There was a 458 Speciale nearby and that looked absolutely vast, excessively so in direct comparison.
I'm in favour an Evo 1 at the moment over the 22B even though I see more potential from a financial point of view in the 22B. Things are likely to get pretty rocky soon for a lot of people so I'm likely to be stuck with whatever I end up with. I seriously have no problem with that if it's either of these two monumentally cool cars. The 22B is a really special car thing in all respects but is more similar to my Evo VI, so the Integrale would better compliment what I already own. As long as it behaved itself I just don't think I'd ever stop smiling.
The biggest downside is turning down the rare chance to own a 22B.... aaaarrgggh... I really need to get a job hosting the Tonight Show and a big warehouse in LA!
Tell you what though I saw a lot of rare and interesting cars just sat in storage not for sale which was quite a sad sight. Presumably owned by people who are more interested in making money than driving cars. Batmobile 190 Evo Merc, R5 Turbo, 2 final edition Integrales (in addition to the four that were for sale) various beetles, Ferraris all sat there gathering dust.
Not making it any easier, from 0.52 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RRZjXFjBuc
It may not have been rallied competitively by Subaru but if Colin McRae bought one with his own money I don't think endorsements come any better than that!
then there's this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB8D9Ny9wms
that actual car is for sale at 22B money too...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RRZjXFjBuc
It may not have been rallied competitively by Subaru but if Colin McRae bought one with his own money I don't think endorsements come any better than that!
then there's this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB8D9Ny9wms
that actual car is for sale at 22B money too...
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