Why the UK obsession with "German" cars?
Discussion
It's something that often comes up in other threads but it seems that every man and his dog wants a new VW/Audi/BMW/Mercedes when it's widely documented that "German" reliability and build quality are not what they're cracked up to be and the service departments at those dealerships seem uninterested in fixing those problems.
Growing up in the 80s/90s, UK roads were dominated by Fords, Vauxhalls and Rovers and then I remember Citroen/Peugeot/Renault becoming very popular in the late 90s. I guess the German invasion began with the introduction of the "cheaper" models (A3/A-Class/1-Series)?
Most other European countries seem to be fairly loyal to their domestic brands but in other continents such as North America/Australasia, mainstream car sales seem to be dominated by the likes of Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Hyundai and Kia. Brands that offer good reliability and better warranty, value for money and service. For sure, German vehicles still have a following but mainly at the higher end and there tend to be less engine/trim options, so even the "base" model has decent power and leather seats for example, so maybe the price differential is higher?
To a certain extent, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Non-German brands don't tend to market luxury products in the UK because people don't buy them, so if you need a practical daily with some power and luxury at not too outlandish a price, the choice is dominated by "German" vehicles. I don't tend to spend over 20k on cars but if I did, I would certainly be looking at stuff like Audi RS3s/TT RSs, BMW M3s/M4s, AMG Mercs and Porsche Boxsters/Caymans.
But that doesn't explain all the low spec and modestly-engined Audis/BMWs/Mercedes out there. I haven't bought a brand new car for ages, so maybe I am missing something but why would I want a less reliable, less well-specced, less powerful and less well-warranted car and receive crap service for the privilige when all the recent Fords, Mazda, Kias and Hyundais that I have driven have been so good.
So why do the UK's buying habits differ so much from the rest of the world?
Growing up in the 80s/90s, UK roads were dominated by Fords, Vauxhalls and Rovers and then I remember Citroen/Peugeot/Renault becoming very popular in the late 90s. I guess the German invasion began with the introduction of the "cheaper" models (A3/A-Class/1-Series)?
Most other European countries seem to be fairly loyal to their domestic brands but in other continents such as North America/Australasia, mainstream car sales seem to be dominated by the likes of Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Hyundai and Kia. Brands that offer good reliability and better warranty, value for money and service. For sure, German vehicles still have a following but mainly at the higher end and there tend to be less engine/trim options, so even the "base" model has decent power and leather seats for example, so maybe the price differential is higher?
To a certain extent, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Non-German brands don't tend to market luxury products in the UK because people don't buy them, so if you need a practical daily with some power and luxury at not too outlandish a price, the choice is dominated by "German" vehicles. I don't tend to spend over 20k on cars but if I did, I would certainly be looking at stuff like Audi RS3s/TT RSs, BMW M3s/M4s, AMG Mercs and Porsche Boxsters/Caymans.
But that doesn't explain all the low spec and modestly-engined Audis/BMWs/Mercedes out there. I haven't bought a brand new car for ages, so maybe I am missing something but why would I want a less reliable, less well-specced, less powerful and less well-warranted car and receive crap service for the privilige when all the recent Fords, Mazda, Kias and Hyundais that I have driven have been so good.
So why do the UK's buying habits differ so much from the rest of the world?
finishing touch said:
But, but, but, we don't make any cars; well, apart from the one I made in my shed.
What big estate could I buy (for a works car) that will tow 2.1 tonnes and fit a 2 metre sheet in the back if I didn't have my old Merc ????
I don't know. Some kind of SUV/pickup (possibly Japanese)? Volvo? Large MPV? Would a Mondeo/Insignia Estate be "man" enough? Rover 75 Tourer/MG ZT-T? Not really knocking your choice. I had an old Merc C250TD estate and it was a nice old thing but very rusty and the build quality was pretty flaky. I just needed a decent-sized, cheap estate fairly quickly and the C-Class happened to be available and the right price.What big estate could I buy (for a works car) that will tow 2.1 tonnes and fit a 2 metre sheet in the back if I didn't have my old Merc ????
It was more of an observation based on new car buying habits.
Blaster72 said:
Biggest selling cars in the UK last year?
Ford Fiesta
Vauxhall Corsa
Ford Focus
VW Golf
Nissan Qashqai
Vauxhall Astra
VW Polo
MINI
Merc C-Class
Audi A3
Us Brits bought almost twice as many Fiestas as we did the nearest German, the Golf.
Everywhere I look in my area German cars aren't the most popular, it's Fords, Vauxhalls and lots of Nissans.
I suspect fleet buyers and company car owners are responsible for a big chunk of German models on the road.
Slightly unfair comparison. Fiesta starts at around 10k and Golf around 18k list. The only thing people like more than a "premium" car is a cheap car! The new Fiesta is going to go upmarket though, which to me sounds like a risky strategy. I can't really see would be Fiesta buyers priced out of the market flocking to that horrible little Ka+ thing instead. Fiesta/Focus and Corsa/Astra will likely always be favourites due to price, strong value and heavy depreciation making them excellent nearly new buys (and rental fleets will always ensure a good supply of these vehicles on the nearly new market). However, higher up, when did you last see a new Mondeo or Insignia? You can't even get a mid-size family car from Renault or Nissan any more ie - Laguna/Primera, although the Qashquai has done pretty well. Sierras/Mondeos/Cavaliers/Vectras were everywhere in the 80s and 90s but now you're more likely to see 3-Series, C-Classes and Audi A4s.Ford Fiesta
Vauxhall Corsa
Ford Focus
VW Golf
Nissan Qashqai
Vauxhall Astra
VW Polo
MINI
Merc C-Class
Audi A3
Us Brits bought almost twice as many Fiestas as we did the nearest German, the Golf.
Everywhere I look in my area German cars aren't the most popular, it's Fords, Vauxhalls and lots of Nissans.
I suspect fleet buyers and company car owners are responsible for a big chunk of German models on the road.
OldGermanHeaps said:
The problem i'm having is finding a used non german/flash car with all the same trimmings at a reasonable price, looking for a big estate with a bit of poke and apart from a mondeo tit x which are rare in scotlland and holding their money far too well or a jag xf which in estate form is megabucks the german options tend to offer better value for money with regard to spec. Because top spec used skoda superbs don't come on the used market as often they tend to cost more than an equivelant spec bmw/audi/merc. To me this is a problem being a self employed tradesman as the last time i had a german car and customers seen it the difference in price haggling on jobs was very noticable, a couple actually came out and said you are running an x5, you must be making a lot of profit so you can cut me a better deal, missing out the fact it was a 52 plate with 100k on it. I went back to renault and things returned to normal. I wish renault still brought in the laguna the last ones of those were fantastic.
Have you tried a Mazda 6?An interesting read and some good points made but I'm not sure if the original question has really been answered. I have owned several German cars, a BMW, a Mercedes and several VWs and enjoyed most of them, so really no axe to grind. I have also owned Vauxhall, Peugeot, Mazda, Fiat, Subaru, Chrysler, Jeep, Toyota, Honda, Dodge, MINI. Toyota and Mazda were most reliable (nothing required other than routine servicing and no rattles) and other than the Jeep, which was a complete disaster, the least reliable were the mk4 Golf and the Corrado. OK, the "perceived" quality of the Golf was nicer than the Mazda/Toyota (door shut with a solid thunk and higher grade interior plastics) but actual reliability was dire. My Fiat, Vauxhall and Subaru were all far more reliable and to be fair the BMW (E30) was pretty good too. The Mercedes was mechanically tough but badly rusting and lots of bits of trim falling off.
OK, the sample size may not be statistically significant but it begs the question what new cars are actually the most reliable and better built?
I don't know if you can really bring country of manufacture into it. Sure, Nissan, Toyota and Honda build cars in the UK but to Japanese standards. Do their UK built cars feel any less Japanese than their Japanese built ones? "German" cars are built all over the world but I wouldn't really call an American-built BMW or Mercedes American. Likewise, my own MINI Cooper was built in the UK and I would like to think of it as British but it does have a very BMW-like feel to it. Is that a good or a bad thing? I don't know. It has a few rattles but in general feels fairly solid.
Surely GM continued to market their vehicles as Vauxhalls uniquely in the UK to maintain that perceived Britishness? Are Ford and Vauxhalls German? They may be engineered in Europe but their parent companies are American surely and I wouldn't say that they "feel" that Germanic. Get out of a European Vauxhall and into an American Chevrolet and they have a similar kind of feel. The last two cars that I hired were a mk7 Golf S and a Focus Zetec-S. The Golf had a "nicer" quality interior and had that solid, Germanic feel, although the passenger door had a poor fit and generated quite a lot of wind noise. The Focus interior plastics did not feel of such high quality and I still find this a downside in most Fords and it didn't feel Germanic but actual build quality was pretty solid with no issues and despite being a fan of Golfs in the past, the Focus was a nicer place to be and a more enjoyable drive.
I also fully understand that the high-end German cars (Porsches, RS Audis, BMW Ms, AMG Mercs) are very nice pieces of kit with few rivals and even a high-spec BMW/Mercedes offers RWD and more powerful petrol and diesel engines which similarly-sized rivals don't offer and I also get the leasing argument for company car drivers but is a C200 Blutec (the one with the Renault diesel engine) really a nicer car than a fully-loaded Mazda 6 diesel for a private cash/finance buyer? I'm not so sure.
The latest Mazda 3/6 have very pleasant, nice quality interiors, as do the Kia Sportage and Sorento for that matter. You also get everything as standard and the options lists are usually negligible. You get better reliability, lower parts prices, longer warranty and usually better service from the dealership too. So unlike Australia/North America, why would we rather buy an A-Class/C-Class or Audi Q3/Q5? People in these markets still like luxury and spend a lot of money on their cars but they seem to value the tangibles like reliability, running costs, dealer service and VFM over the intangibles like having the right badge/image!
OK, the sample size may not be statistically significant but it begs the question what new cars are actually the most reliable and better built?
I don't know if you can really bring country of manufacture into it. Sure, Nissan, Toyota and Honda build cars in the UK but to Japanese standards. Do their UK built cars feel any less Japanese than their Japanese built ones? "German" cars are built all over the world but I wouldn't really call an American-built BMW or Mercedes American. Likewise, my own MINI Cooper was built in the UK and I would like to think of it as British but it does have a very BMW-like feel to it. Is that a good or a bad thing? I don't know. It has a few rattles but in general feels fairly solid.
Surely GM continued to market their vehicles as Vauxhalls uniquely in the UK to maintain that perceived Britishness? Are Ford and Vauxhalls German? They may be engineered in Europe but their parent companies are American surely and I wouldn't say that they "feel" that Germanic. Get out of a European Vauxhall and into an American Chevrolet and they have a similar kind of feel. The last two cars that I hired were a mk7 Golf S and a Focus Zetec-S. The Golf had a "nicer" quality interior and had that solid, Germanic feel, although the passenger door had a poor fit and generated quite a lot of wind noise. The Focus interior plastics did not feel of such high quality and I still find this a downside in most Fords and it didn't feel Germanic but actual build quality was pretty solid with no issues and despite being a fan of Golfs in the past, the Focus was a nicer place to be and a more enjoyable drive.
I also fully understand that the high-end German cars (Porsches, RS Audis, BMW Ms, AMG Mercs) are very nice pieces of kit with few rivals and even a high-spec BMW/Mercedes offers RWD and more powerful petrol and diesel engines which similarly-sized rivals don't offer and I also get the leasing argument for company car drivers but is a C200 Blutec (the one with the Renault diesel engine) really a nicer car than a fully-loaded Mazda 6 diesel for a private cash/finance buyer? I'm not so sure.
The latest Mazda 3/6 have very pleasant, nice quality interiors, as do the Kia Sportage and Sorento for that matter. You also get everything as standard and the options lists are usually negligible. You get better reliability, lower parts prices, longer warranty and usually better service from the dealership too. So unlike Australia/North America, why would we rather buy an A-Class/C-Class or Audi Q3/Q5? People in these markets still like luxury and spend a lot of money on their cars but they seem to value the tangibles like reliability, running costs, dealer service and VFM over the intangibles like having the right badge/image!
OldGermanHeaps said:
Don't like the drive and reliability issues of their not so old output puts me off. Gravitating towards a new sportage but not sure.
Have you tried the 2013- on model? I genuinely thought that it drove as well as and felt as premium as a BMW/Mercedes/Audi and the image is fairly neutral. New Sportage is great too. If you can get over the badge, it actually has a really nice interior and was surprisingly fun to drive. Kia reliability seems to be holding up pretty well too in their latest generation of cars.nickfrog said:
Maybe some people buy a car despite it being German as they don't care what nationality it is ?
Absolutely and from my very varied car history (in terms of manufacturers) including 5 German cars (6 if you count the MINI) I hope that I have shown no bias or affiliation with a particular brand. I'm probably asking the wrong demographic, as most of the people on here that drive a German car have a very good reason for doing so i.e. it meets their needs better than anything else, they enjoy the drive more than something else or there is nothing comparable available.
I completely understand that there are no really comparable equivalents to vehicles such as the M135i/M235i and RS6 for example or even a 335d.
But my point still stands. Out of the 5 German cars that I owned, only two of them were well built and reliable (an E30 3-Series and a new Spanish-built Polo). My mk4 Golf (only 7 years old and low mileage at the time) was complete garbage. Maybe I just had a bad one but other friends with mk4 Golfs had lots of issues too and many German cars have well-documented common problems. In contrast my Fiats (not a manufacturer well-know for its reliability and build quality) were both 100% reliable, as were ALL my Japanese cars (Mazda, Subaru, Toyota, Honda). Surely that can't be an accident!
Genuine premium "premium" German cars are clearly really nice pieces of kit but to get a BMW/Audi/Mercedes down to a similar price to a Ford/Vauxhall, corners have to be cut and reliability and build quality will suffer. One of the worst cars that I have driven was the original Mercedes A-Class, which came with a litany of problems and drove substantially worse than a 5k Ford Ka. On the flipside, the more expensive models in the Mercedes range at the time were truly lovely and genuinely lived up to the "premium" image.
You get what you pay for and if you think you're getting a reliable, well-built "premium" car for the same price as a Mondeo then you have to be a little delusional.
Edited by white_goodman on Friday 17th February 03:24
SuperchargedVR6 said:
What's with the 'perceived'? If it felt better put together to you, then it was.
It's funny how people always say X, Y or Z was dire for reliability with absolutely no context.
Do you do any repairs and/or servicing on your vehicles? Or do you just drive them into the ground, wait for bits to inevitably break, and then slag them off for it on a forum?
You say the MK4 reliability was dire, I say my girlfriend's 1.6 MK4 (which I service and maintain) has just passed it's 16th MOT with no advisories. In all of those years, all it's required on top of servicing is, 1 x catalytic converter and 1 x window regulator. Yep, it's a seriously unreliable car.
Corrado's have a known weak sunroof - but blame Rockwell International for that. The spoiler can seize up from lack of maintenance, and that's all I can remember. I had one up to 205,000 miles and it was very reliable. Nothing ever fell off, no break downs, nothing.
I like German cars because I love maintaining and modifying them. They're like Lego to me. I've never got that bug from any other brand of car.
OK. My mk4 was a 2000 2.0 GTi 5 door bought at 7 years old with 67k. Full service history and 12 months MOT. The first thing that I had to change was the starter motor as it was making a funny noise and the front suspension bushes because the front suspension was knocking. Then it started idling poorly, which I never got to the bottom of as it didn't do it all the time and when they plugged it into the diagnostics nothing ever came up. It also used a lot of oil and only did about 20mpg but other than that it ran fine! Every time it rained the alarm went off, so I reverted to not bothering to lock it when it was raining (which was quite a lot in Manchester)! Not long after getting it, the rear doors decided to jam shut, so it was basically a 2 seater for most of my ownership! I had that common problem with the rear wash wipe that got sorted but the last straw was when I took it in for its next MOT and discovered that the brake lights had stopped working and the garage didn't know the cause and quoted me an extortionate figure to diagnose the problem. I traded it in for a new Polo the same time, which was fine actually but I only did 15,000 miles in it and had expected more from a 7 year old VW. I tend to buy at 6-7 years old and haven't had so many issues with any of the other cars that I have bought. Other friends had issues such as water leaks and window regulator problems with their mk4 Golfs (the window regulator being the only common problem that mine didn't suffer from)!It's funny how people always say X, Y or Z was dire for reliability with absolutely no context.
Do you do any repairs and/or servicing on your vehicles? Or do you just drive them into the ground, wait for bits to inevitably break, and then slag them off for it on a forum?
You say the MK4 reliability was dire, I say my girlfriend's 1.6 MK4 (which I service and maintain) has just passed it's 16th MOT with no advisories. In all of those years, all it's required on top of servicing is, 1 x catalytic converter and 1 x window regulator. Yep, it's a seriously unreliable car.
Corrado's have a known weak sunroof - but blame Rockwell International for that. The spoiler can seize up from lack of maintenance, and that's all I can remember. I had one up to 205,000 miles and it was very reliable. Nothing ever fell off, no break downs, nothing.
I like German cars because I love maintaining and modifying them. They're like Lego to me. I've never got that bug from any other brand of car.
The Corrado VR6 that I had previous to the Golf had a broken sunroof and the heater jammed on hot air only. I also replaced the clutch and HT leads in my short tenure to try and cure an intermittent misfire but this never solved the problem. I can be a bit more forgiving of the Corrado, as it was 12 years old at the time and I enjoyed driving it when it was wasn't misfiring but I have to say it was less reliable and solid-feeling than the older E30 325i that I owned previously to it.
I do look after my cars and service them regularly and address problems as they crop up, so I have rarely been left stranded by the side of the road. I can only recall a broken clutch cable on a Peugeot 205.
By "perceived" quality I mean that you sit in a mk4 Golf, close the door and look at and touch the surfaces in the interior and it "feels" very well-built. In contrast, the Subaru that I owned later felt like a 20 year old Nissan Bluebird taxi cab to sit in but everything worked and nothing ever fell off!
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Unlucky! I'll give you that one. The 2.0 GTI is widely regarded as THE worst 'GTI' VW ever made I would put money on the starter motor being a pattern one fitted by a previous owner. Was it making a high pitched whine after the engine fired up? I've seen so many pattern starters that have defective centrifugal mechanisms that don't let go quick enough after start, hence the noise.
Common for seldom used rear door locks to seize up. Seen that on a few cars, not just VWs/Germans. Rear wash wipe, yeah had that one on mine. Fairly simple fix.
Overall not seeing anything horrendously wrong there to be honest, minor niggles and cheap to fix if you know your way around a Golf.
The Corrado, well, yeah they're old and yep, I had the heater cable thing on mine too, but again, a simple fix. The Sunroof is a one time fix by using the more reliable Golf mechanism/subframe instead, but you need to be 'in the know' to know that unfortunately, otherwise dealers charge you a £1000 to put a new known crap one back in. Interesting. My E30s felt considerably older and more tired than my Corrado, but my old 525i on the other hand, absolute tank!
The MK4 had a decent interior (better than the MK5's) - providing previous owners hadn't messed with it fitting stereos and speakers, snapping clips, not replacing them, things then creak and rattle and give the next owner a bad impression of the car. In fact, previous bodgers are indeed what give a car a bad name for people new to the model / marque.
Yeah Subarus are a very utilitarian, but more fragile mechanically than German cars I found, especially when tuned. The mechanical limits are far easier to find.
Yeah. I realise that the 2.0 was not the one to get now. My budget only stretched to a 1.6 or a 2.0 at the time and the GTi interior, looks and badge drew me in that direction. It still makes me laugh that the two convertibles that I have owned (MX5 and E30 325i Convertible) didn't leak and yet my hardtop Corrado and mk4 Golf did! I have since driven a few 1.8T mk4 Golfs and TDI 130s and they are considerably nicer. The other car that I was looking at instead of the Golf was a mk1 Focus and in hindsight I kind of regretted not getting the Focus but at the time, I saw myself as more of a VW than a Ford man. The mk4 "GTi" tainted my experience of owning a Golf GTi but I've driven a few mk5s and they are in a different league and definitely on my to own list. I would put money on the starter motor being a pattern one fitted by a previous owner. Was it making a high pitched whine after the engine fired up? I've seen so many pattern starters that have defective centrifugal mechanisms that don't let go quick enough after start, hence the noise.Common for seldom used rear door locks to seize up. Seen that on a few cars, not just VWs/Germans. Rear wash wipe, yeah had that one on mine. Fairly simple fix.
Overall not seeing anything horrendously wrong there to be honest, minor niggles and cheap to fix if you know your way around a Golf.
The Corrado, well, yeah they're old and yep, I had the heater cable thing on mine too, but again, a simple fix. The Sunroof is a one time fix by using the more reliable Golf mechanism/subframe instead, but you need to be 'in the know' to know that unfortunately, otherwise dealers charge you a £1000 to put a new known crap one back in. Interesting. My E30s felt considerably older and more tired than my Corrado, but my old 525i on the other hand, absolute tank!
The MK4 had a decent interior (better than the MK5's) - providing previous owners hadn't messed with it fitting stereos and speakers, snapping clips, not replacing them, things then creak and rattle and give the next owner a bad impression of the car. In fact, previous bodgers are indeed what give a car a bad name for people new to the model / marque.
Yeah Subarus are a very utilitarian, but more fragile mechanically than German cars I found, especially when tuned. The mechanical limits are far easier to find.
I did briefly look at a mk4 R32 before I got my WRX, as I still liked the look of the car and the interior (and most of all the noise) but the WRX just offered more performance per pound. Mine was a 2004 "Blobeye", one of the last with the 2 litre Boxer engine and I kept it standard, so no mechanical issues for me in 3 years of ownership but yeah, I get that the 1.8T VAG unit is highly tuneable.
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