£10k gbox bill on 4yr old Audi. Was it ever fit for purpose?
Discussion
I've had reason to put my 2012 A6 C7 3.0 TDI Qtr into the dealer for a gearbox complaint. It's the S Tronic 7 speed and slow speed manoeuvres have become very difficult with the car not moving then lunging either forwards or back, until recently box was silky smooth, in for gearbox oil change and becomes snatchy, abrupt and very sharp changes, to the extent it does throw your head back on up changes. (all in full auto/drive mode only) It's a one owner car and it has been driven mostly sedately. (Not that this should matter anyway?)
I've had the 'kiss points realigned' by the dealer, which fixed the issue for two days, then back to the same. Now they tell me its the whole gearbox that needs replaced with a bill of £9,700. The car has FSH by main dealer, always gets what its needed and has 56k miles on it.
I can feel a fight for some form of goodwill. I don't have the extended warranty and the car was remapped until last week. (Dealer insisted on the map being wiped before they'd make the assessment)
Is this a case of get a second opinion, obtain a full report into the reasons for the failure?, take Audi to task about the premature failing of the gearbox, which at four years old and FSH surely this isn't at the end of it's design life?
Any tips on how to deal with this, that doesn't involve fire?
Any recent cases I can cite, have Audi at any point admitted failing gearboxes and they'd assist?
Some advice and pointers on any of the above that could help my case would be much appreciated. thanks guys
I've had the 'kiss points realigned' by the dealer, which fixed the issue for two days, then back to the same. Now they tell me its the whole gearbox that needs replaced with a bill of £9,700. The car has FSH by main dealer, always gets what its needed and has 56k miles on it.
I can feel a fight for some form of goodwill. I don't have the extended warranty and the car was remapped until last week. (Dealer insisted on the map being wiped before they'd make the assessment)
Is this a case of get a second opinion, obtain a full report into the reasons for the failure?, take Audi to task about the premature failing of the gearbox, which at four years old and FSH surely this isn't at the end of it's design life?
Any tips on how to deal with this, that doesn't involve fire?
Any recent cases I can cite, have Audi at any point admitted failing gearboxes and they'd assist?
Some advice and pointers on any of the above that could help my case would be much appreciated. thanks guys
Guys, thanks for the comments. The Audi tech did suggest that this type of modification is unlikely to create the fault in the box, but was unwilling to comment whether Audi UK would hang their hat on the you've modded it, your problem.
The S Tronic I believe is a DSG form and I don't know about the actual torque figure increase. When it was remapped I did ask for a 'mild map' that basically just massaged a little more from the car.
One point to note it, the guy I have doing my maps used to advertise in Glasgow Audi, the sales desks had flyers for his services to re-map your brand new Audi pruchased from them! The conversation I had with the sales team was about warranty and apparently (and at the time...) the remap wouldn't affect the warranty of the vehicle. I assume this is no longer the case.
At the point of purchase and map-work, I felt the reward was worth the 'limited' risk. I'm not a gambling man and from this experience it's not a career choice I'm about to divert towards.
On another point about the timescales, I did get a new engine (£1,600) and gearbox (£2,100) through warranty on my bike, which was 15months out of warranty, by those most excellent guys at Allan Jefferies in Shipley. My part of the bill was 20% of the labour. Which worked out at £230 for £6k worth of work. The bike was standard other than a sports exhaust. (I must add, the central scotland dealers had refused to take this case up for me, Shipley guys were a life saver experience for me)
I am presently waiting the dealer getting back to me, as apparently these guys are empowered totally on goodwill.
The S Tronic I believe is a DSG form and I don't know about the actual torque figure increase. When it was remapped I did ask for a 'mild map' that basically just massaged a little more from the car.
One point to note it, the guy I have doing my maps used to advertise in Glasgow Audi, the sales desks had flyers for his services to re-map your brand new Audi pruchased from them! The conversation I had with the sales team was about warranty and apparently (and at the time...) the remap wouldn't affect the warranty of the vehicle. I assume this is no longer the case.
At the point of purchase and map-work, I felt the reward was worth the 'limited' risk. I'm not a gambling man and from this experience it's not a career choice I'm about to divert towards.
On another point about the timescales, I did get a new engine (£1,600) and gearbox (£2,100) through warranty on my bike, which was 15months out of warranty, by those most excellent guys at Allan Jefferies in Shipley. My part of the bill was 20% of the labour. Which worked out at £230 for £6k worth of work. The bike was standard other than a sports exhaust. (I must add, the central scotland dealers had refused to take this case up for me, Shipley guys were a life saver experience for me)
I am presently waiting the dealer getting back to me, as apparently these guys are empowered totally on goodwill.
Do audi know if it's been mapped?
Yes, all Audi's have a 'QR Code' stored in their ECUs, as soon as it's accessed and altered, it's logged. Even if it goes back to standard, they know it's been tampered with.
The car remains drivable, but I will be avoiding city centre parking, plus I don't know if it will get any worse, or simply remain the same for the next 100k miles. It was a car i intended keeping for a while.
Also, yes, the box was perfect in every way, problem only occurred a few weeks after getting the gearbox oil changed. Coincidence or not?, I don't know, but it's the same dealer who has the car just now.
Yes, all Audi's have a 'QR Code' stored in their ECUs, as soon as it's accessed and altered, it's logged. Even if it goes back to standard, they know it's been tampered with.
The car remains drivable, but I will be avoiding city centre parking, plus I don't know if it will get any worse, or simply remain the same for the next 100k miles. It was a car i intended keeping for a while.
Also, yes, the box was perfect in every way, problem only occurred a few weeks after getting the gearbox oil changed. Coincidence or not?, I don't know, but it's the same dealer who has the car just now.
Perth Audi has had a good name for many years. After Glasgow Audi failing me at the time of sale, i drove up to Perth, gave the sales chap the opportunity to sell me a car in less than five minutes, (by matching the costs from other dealerships down south) but due to missing out on manufacturing slots, they also missed out on one of those 'secret dealer-only deals' that allowed me to get a further £2k off the price. The sales guy was very good, advised he couldnt match it and that i should take the deal if it was still available. I bought it from Epsom Audi.
The current dealer is less than five miles from me, Glasgow is about 20, but tomorrow I'll be passing Perth late afternoon and will make that call. as noted with my bike, I experienced terrible customer service and support from the local dealer and ended up having works done 250miles away at Shipley, Leeds. (If only these guys done Audis... :-) )
They'll have all the details about oil change then complaint a few weeks later.
thanks for input.
The current dealer is less than five miles from me, Glasgow is about 20, but tomorrow I'll be passing Perth late afternoon and will make that call. as noted with my bike, I experienced terrible customer service and support from the local dealer and ended up having works done 250miles away at Shipley, Leeds. (If only these guys done Audis... :-) )
They'll have all the details about oil change then complaint a few weeks later.
thanks for input.
rockin said:
Cupramax said:
The 3.0tdi is the highest torque engine that Stronic gearbox gets fitted to, and you've remapped it to more. Audi fit the 8 speed ZF torque converter auto to the BiTdi (next more powerful engine) for a reason apparently...
Auto boxes have a max' torque rating for normal service life. Remap probably gave increased torque (why else would you remap?) and shortened that lifespan.I will update with the results from this, but one thing I will ask is the matter of the 'mechatronics'. One guy told me 9/10 times this is replaced it fixes the issue, and I see a previous poster mentioning this too. Anyone got experience with this being replaced?
I'm hoping this reaches other users that's had 'snatchy' gearbox issues too.
bloomen said:
Are you a time traveler from the future where inflation has run wild? Who keeps giving you these repair figures?
haha, I wish I was, I guess I've just been unlucky with some of the machinery I've purchased/run. These are genuine, zero exaggeration quotes guys. now where did I park the delorean... :-) Guys, a fascinating series of responses and opinion. I've read every post, thank.
The smoking/cancer analogy I don't believe as being applicable (doctor or not!)
I bought the car new. I thought the power and torque produced by the 3.0tdi was pretty good and the MPG returned when considering the performance, was excellent, but the [apparent] value for money of a £500 remap is outstanding, based on the belief that the original map is there for the purpose of euro emissions only and the power and torque soon-to-be-realised was what the machine always was intended to offer. I guess at times, we only hear what we want to. I mapped the car at three months old.
...and strangely enough, the last box I changed was also a mk1 golf, just two years ago, bought from Crawley and fitted with ease. No, the STronic is a 'monster' by comparison.
Value, dealer window price for the car is probably £18k, it was £48k new with extras. Parkers probably has this car closer to £13.5k :-( which makes it even more applicable that my dealer even thought they could suggest that the £9.7k repair bill would be even considered.
A thousand thanks to those who've suggested all those alternatives the length and breadth of the country. I'll begin my calls around Glasgow, then it doesn't matter if it's 100 or 400 miles for the repair. (My Mk1 golf conversion was done in Somerset four years ago):- have car (!) will travel.
I hope to find out tomorrow what the formal response to the current dealer request is wrt the goodwill. despite the naysayers, I remain unwarranted optimistic.
I doubt if I will be able to 'prove' the actual damage of the box, thus failing Audi heavy contribution, my plan is: second opinion. Failing that: phone calls galore, the guys I looked at from the links contained within the thread all look good, even if one of their headline services is 'remapping...' :-0 I'm sure there's a Dragons Den plan in there, we remap, then in a few years we repair the box you're extra torques have chewed up. LOL
I will update the thread when I get my response from the local Audi dealer.
I don't think there's any recourse on those who remapped the car. It was instructed to be 'mild'. It wasn't tested otherwise, certainly not beyond the comparison between the factory 245 whooosh to the remapped whoooosh. Smile factor science. £500 well spent.
Whilst I acknowledge the guys at the dealer can't all be technical geniuses and are unlikely to be able to fully analyse and understand the complexities of a modern STronic box, let alone attempt a repair, I accept a certain level (actually all) of risk insofar as it was at my instruction to increase horses, torques and I'm not interested in euro level emissions.
Thank you for those who have bid 'good luck', in whatever manner intended; thanks
One thing for sure, it's unlikely to put me off the brand of the "German superior quality" vehicles, but I shall switch dealer allegiance from this day hence. (should I get the response my naive optimism kind of knows is coming...)
to be continued...
PS: Note to self: cancel Disney 2017
The smoking/cancer analogy I don't believe as being applicable (doctor or not!)
I bought the car new. I thought the power and torque produced by the 3.0tdi was pretty good and the MPG returned when considering the performance, was excellent, but the [apparent] value for money of a £500 remap is outstanding, based on the belief that the original map is there for the purpose of euro emissions only and the power and torque soon-to-be-realised was what the machine always was intended to offer. I guess at times, we only hear what we want to. I mapped the car at three months old.
...and strangely enough, the last box I changed was also a mk1 golf, just two years ago, bought from Crawley and fitted with ease. No, the STronic is a 'monster' by comparison.
Value, dealer window price for the car is probably £18k, it was £48k new with extras. Parkers probably has this car closer to £13.5k :-( which makes it even more applicable that my dealer even thought they could suggest that the £9.7k repair bill would be even considered.
A thousand thanks to those who've suggested all those alternatives the length and breadth of the country. I'll begin my calls around Glasgow, then it doesn't matter if it's 100 or 400 miles for the repair. (My Mk1 golf conversion was done in Somerset four years ago):- have car (!) will travel.
I hope to find out tomorrow what the formal response to the current dealer request is wrt the goodwill. despite the naysayers, I remain unwarranted optimistic.
I doubt if I will be able to 'prove' the actual damage of the box, thus failing Audi heavy contribution, my plan is: second opinion. Failing that: phone calls galore, the guys I looked at from the links contained within the thread all look good, even if one of their headline services is 'remapping...' :-0 I'm sure there's a Dragons Den plan in there, we remap, then in a few years we repair the box you're extra torques have chewed up. LOL
I will update the thread when I get my response from the local Audi dealer.
I don't think there's any recourse on those who remapped the car. It was instructed to be 'mild'. It wasn't tested otherwise, certainly not beyond the comparison between the factory 245 whooosh to the remapped whoooosh. Smile factor science. £500 well spent.
Whilst I acknowledge the guys at the dealer can't all be technical geniuses and are unlikely to be able to fully analyse and understand the complexities of a modern STronic box, let alone attempt a repair, I accept a certain level (actually all) of risk insofar as it was at my instruction to increase horses, torques and I'm not interested in euro level emissions.
Thank you for those who have bid 'good luck', in whatever manner intended; thanks
One thing for sure, it's unlikely to put me off the brand of the "German superior quality" vehicles, but I shall switch dealer allegiance from this day hence. (should I get the response my naive optimism kind of knows is coming...)
to be continued...
PS: Note to self: cancel Disney 2017
Update: Audi dealer has had discussions with Audi UK, who have agreed to 'review the case', based on the fact it's had a FSH from authorised dealers in the past, plus it's my 3rd Audi. ? (whatever the 'case', Audi UK have had a good opportunity to say no, and they didn't)
Audi dealer had to drop an email to Audi UK listing the car, fault, history etc for Audi UK to review. Dealer has been advised that the replacement option is a non starter. I can't/won't be paying a bill of this magnitude. I've asked the question of what will happen if I continue to drive it like this, will it remain the same, get worse, seize? (I've not had a response)
I expect to hear back at some point this week.
In the meantime I've discussed the issue with the recommended transmission specialist Mackies, in Glasgow. They can cover the repair on the box but need to drive and diagnose the fault(s) then will provide a price. They are familiar with the boxes and they have suggested a worst case bill of £4k for the repair of 'things that are replaceable'. They also know of the size of bills Audi charging for their only 'repair: a complete gearbox replacement: they guessed at £8-10k)
In one way or another, to fix the car, I will be a few grand out of pocket, but the fact that Audi UK have agreed to review the (my) case, does have a little warm glow of some form of contribution will be 'considered'. As much as I'd have liked to have seen the actual email sent to Audi and the rhetoric contained within, I fear there's a lot of influence will be based on this. I don't know.
Next course of action will be determined on the call from Audi dealer to me.
I will update with the Audi response, ultimate gearbox fix and cost.
Audi dealer had to drop an email to Audi UK listing the car, fault, history etc for Audi UK to review. Dealer has been advised that the replacement option is a non starter. I can't/won't be paying a bill of this magnitude. I've asked the question of what will happen if I continue to drive it like this, will it remain the same, get worse, seize? (I've not had a response)
I expect to hear back at some point this week.
In the meantime I've discussed the issue with the recommended transmission specialist Mackies, in Glasgow. They can cover the repair on the box but need to drive and diagnose the fault(s) then will provide a price. They are familiar with the boxes and they have suggested a worst case bill of £4k for the repair of 'things that are replaceable'. They also know of the size of bills Audi charging for their only 'repair: a complete gearbox replacement: they guessed at £8-10k)
In one way or another, to fix the car, I will be a few grand out of pocket, but the fact that Audi UK have agreed to review the (my) case, does have a little warm glow of some form of contribution will be 'considered'. As much as I'd have liked to have seen the actual email sent to Audi and the rhetoric contained within, I fear there's a lot of influence will be based on this. I don't know.
Next course of action will be determined on the call from Audi dealer to me.
I will update with the Audi response, ultimate gearbox fix and cost.
csd19 said:
Was nothing mentioned regarding the fact the garage had changed the gearbox fluid not long before it started playing up? Autos can become very erratic with the wrong oil and/or oil level.
General update:Audi UK advise yesterday that due to map/chip-tune, they wont be contributing. It's taken until then to tell me this, despite knowing about the map from the outset.
As for the oil change: For many years, like many people, I rely upon the main (approved) dealer advising me of what the car needs: Wrong assumption. Audi have advised me that the strict adherence to the service schedules AND the works undertaken at service visits is the owners sole responsibility.
Audi dealer is silent, Audi UK are not recognising that it could have been wrong or lack of oil.
Mackies Transmissions in Glasgow will be doing the repair, their quote of £4.9k is still a bitter pill, but this will be 2Nr replacement clutches and complete mechatronics unit. confidence for repair is 95%, because they've done several before, including the glasgow traffic cops fully liveried A4 3.0tdi !
parts will be ordered next week. in the meantime, the car is on Audi forecourt waiting on parts.
Fastdruid said:
Not unsurprising tbh. Harsh but unsurprising. Rather annoying they waited so long but that's all too often the case.
Indeed, and the naysayers were right all along, I've spent the last month in false hope, but VAG had a brand loyal individual who can't see past the cost difference, Audi: Probably less than a £1k for the gearbox (in real terms) and huge for me! I event went to the lengths of spelling out the list of VAG cars I have bought, there's £100k on the last two combined alone! Audi weren't interested.
BTW, for all you chipped/mapped cars, the OFT issued a statement way back in 2004 advising the OEM MUST prove the modification the owner has carried out caused the fault that is being investigated. They CANNOT 'unwarrant' a vehicle for a mod that did not affect or contribute towards a failing. My car is out of warranty, thus this didn't help me, but perhaps one for the future.
Also, the DISS report for the car has been deemed 'confidential' and neither Audi UK or local dealer will release it to me. But they expect me to pay £9.7k for a repair, because "Audi UK says that what it needs". this is a big bill for a 'regular' car, it could be reduced considerably by the OEM, but they won't. Through their choice.
I'm also having a little bother accepting that it's my fault the dealer never told me the gearbox oil needed changed at 40k (max)
For now, I'll just await the call of the dealer asking me to remove my car from their forecourt. It's a small and petty pleasure received from such actions, but my brother who was looking at an RS6 has commenced looking elsewhere, I've cancelled the T6 kombi (or was just about to order) in favour of a transit, my mate was on brink of Q7, he's back looking at the X5... these are only slight tickles behind my otherwise grimmace... did/am I taking it personally? Yes, probably shouldn't but I do feel let down by a brand I've 'supported' (?) for 30years.
Apologies for rant, but right now I'm working out how to break it to her indoors that she can have a holiday or a gearbox.
Now where's that tent... :-0 :-)
guys: thanks for replies, these alone have me chuckling in my seat as I read the responses.
I'm truly glad that most can see the funny side of this and thanks for the links above, I'll be sending them on there too. The smallprint can be read pretty easily a few feet from the car, I added my number asking for donations and I'm thinking of setting up a 'justgiving' web page :-)
I did enquire about just changing out the box and apparently its 'coded to the car, loom, ecu and engine' for these models. Individual components (or large assemblies like gearboxes) apparently aren't interchangeable on these cars.
It's unconfirmed, but I will ask about on this too. My son drove up earlier and took a couple of pics, which I'll post on a new thread, again, just for my own amusement and if it does manage it's way back to a decision maker at Audi, all the better. Im out for a curry tomorrow night, but I sort of expect the cops before the weekend. But that'll be another conversation about private land etc.
I'm truly glad that most can see the funny side of this and thanks for the links above, I'll be sending them on there too. The smallprint can be read pretty easily a few feet from the car, I added my number asking for donations and I'm thinking of setting up a 'justgiving' web page :-)
I did enquire about just changing out the box and apparently its 'coded to the car, loom, ecu and engine' for these models. Individual components (or large assemblies like gearboxes) apparently aren't interchangeable on these cars.
It's unconfirmed, but I will ask about on this too. My son drove up earlier and took a couple of pics, which I'll post on a new thread, again, just for my own amusement and if it does manage it's way back to a decision maker at Audi, all the better. Im out for a curry tomorrow night, but I sort of expect the cops before the weekend. But that'll be another conversation about private land etc.
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