The 996 GT2 "Widowmaker" tag. Time to explode the myth.
Discussion
In light of this post on another thread :
Other 996 GT2 owners, ex-owners (standard or modified) and others that have driven these superb cars (for a minimum of 1000 miles), do please post your experiences from behind the wheel.
Sorry, those of you who've experienced these cars from the passenger seat needn't post.
Ok, this "Widowmaker" nonsense needs to stop, right here, right now
I've owned two of these phenomenal cars. The first example was an evil handling motherf*ckingsonofab*tch (now owned by PH'er Consul) :
It ended up at some of the best GT specialists in the UK, and in the process the handling was transformed into something close to how the factory originally intended :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=447...
I drove that car for 20k miles in all weathers, be it rain, shine, snow or ice.
In that time I can only think of two occasions where I thought "Oh f*ck, prepare to meet your maker you kn*bhead, you've just mistaken ambition for ability".
The first time was whilst driving the car home in the wet (having just collected it from Porsche Reading) when I hit a large section of standing water on the beginning of the Northbound link road between the M40 and the M5. The car slewed sideways, and being the complete muppet I am, I came off the throttle. Whilst that stopped the power induced oversteer, coming off the throttle so abruptly only encouraged the rear end of the car to swing in the opposite direction (rather rapidly). Fortunately the puddle ran out, I gathered the car up (yeh right) and suitably chastened, continued on my way.
The second occasion occurred on a fast section of A road in N. Wales. Not concentrating, I approached an 80 Lepton bend at close to 120 Leptons. Realising my mistake too late, I braked as hard I dared without upsetting the balance/trajectory of the car, avoiding hitting the N/S kerb and also threading the car past the car approaching in the other lane.
It was a tight squeeze (and that was just my sphincter)
But both the car and I escaped undamaged, though the same can't be said for my undercrackers ......
But those were the only two "incidents" that were noteworthy. You'll appreciate that both incidents had nothing to do with the car, both were "operator error".
The second car was a higher mileage example, but a far sweeter handling one. Even on tired suspension and a track biased geo set up, it was a great car to drive, and encouraged you to drive it with a different level of commitment to the first car.
I went on to modify it and make it even better/more fun to drive :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=104...
As has been said on here on many previous occasions, set up is critical on these cars, as are fresh tyres, healthy dampers, springs, top mounts and bushes. Critical too is the fitment of some decent rear toe links to eradicate the rear steer caused by the standard rear toe arm bushes deflecting under load and causing unwanted toe changes.
Many cars won't have had any ride height/corner weight adjustments in their life, whilst many will have had track biased set ups applied to nullify the understeer built in by the factory. Cars running their original springs and dampers will often have a saggy rear end (the springs sag with heat and age), this means the front to rear rake is incorrect and with the front end waving around in the breeze (only exacerbated by the rear end squatting under the engines non linear power delivery and copious torque), the handling can best be described as "character building".
It's these poorly set up cars, with dampers, springs and tyres past their best, that have garnered the GT2 it's "Widowmaker" tag. That and inexperienced drivers expecting the car to drive like 996 Turbo.
Drive a car with fresh tyres, fresh dampers, correctly set ride heights, corner weights and sensible toe and camber settings, and you'll find the cars to be very benign and enjoyable to drive. And let us not forget they have two feet of rubber on their rear wheels .....
The factory mapping isn't the best, it's non linear, accordingly they can seem rather flat, but when they do come on boost, it can upset the balance of the car (especially a poorly set up example)
I was always of the opinion that the last thing these cars needed was more horsepower, however once my second car had been remapped, I immediately appreciated the improved power delivery, so far from the extra power making the car more difficult to drive, it actually made it easier.
Fitting a decent suspension kit (Ruf, Bilsteins, KW's, Ohlins, Motons, JRZ's) takes these cars to another level and in the process makes them easier to drive still.
They can be driven rapidly in the wet without troubling the boost gauge, and on smooth, well surfaced roads, even in the wet, full power can be deployed if the throttle pedal is used judiciously. You'll need to concentrate and learn new levels of anticipation, as you'll find yourself travelling very quickly indeed (hard to believe, but almost as quickly as in a Cayman R)
and you'll also need to be able to read the road for changes in surface, cambers and bumps.
Be prepared to put the effort in whilst driving them and the 996 GT2 will reward in a way a 996 Turbo never can.
Buy one, you'll not regret it
RWD cossie wil said:
I think I need a GT2 to keep the turbo company!!! Still, considering how quick a tuned turbo is, I'd think a GT2 is a real handful if you are not careful, I consider myself to be a pretty good driver with considerable rear wheel drive experience, and having owned a turbo for 9 months now, I'm not ashamed to say I think a GT would probably be a bit of a daunting prospect to drive even remotely quickly!
I felt compelled to respond. Other 996 GT2 owners, ex-owners (standard or modified) and others that have driven these superb cars (for a minimum of 1000 miles), do please post your experiences from behind the wheel.
Sorry, those of you who've experienced these cars from the passenger seat needn't post.
Ok, this "Widowmaker" nonsense needs to stop, right here, right now
I've owned two of these phenomenal cars. The first example was an evil handling motherf*ckingsonofab*tch (now owned by PH'er Consul) :
It ended up at some of the best GT specialists in the UK, and in the process the handling was transformed into something close to how the factory originally intended :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=447...
I drove that car for 20k miles in all weathers, be it rain, shine, snow or ice.
In that time I can only think of two occasions where I thought "Oh f*ck, prepare to meet your maker you kn*bhead, you've just mistaken ambition for ability".
The first time was whilst driving the car home in the wet (having just collected it from Porsche Reading) when I hit a large section of standing water on the beginning of the Northbound link road between the M40 and the M5. The car slewed sideways, and being the complete muppet I am, I came off the throttle. Whilst that stopped the power induced oversteer, coming off the throttle so abruptly only encouraged the rear end of the car to swing in the opposite direction (rather rapidly). Fortunately the puddle ran out, I gathered the car up (yeh right) and suitably chastened, continued on my way.
The second occasion occurred on a fast section of A road in N. Wales. Not concentrating, I approached an 80 Lepton bend at close to 120 Leptons. Realising my mistake too late, I braked as hard I dared without upsetting the balance/trajectory of the car, avoiding hitting the N/S kerb and also threading the car past the car approaching in the other lane.
It was a tight squeeze (and that was just my sphincter)
But both the car and I escaped undamaged, though the same can't be said for my undercrackers ...... But those were the only two "incidents" that were noteworthy. You'll appreciate that both incidents had nothing to do with the car, both were "operator error".
The second car was a higher mileage example, but a far sweeter handling one. Even on tired suspension and a track biased geo set up, it was a great car to drive, and encouraged you to drive it with a different level of commitment to the first car.
I went on to modify it and make it even better/more fun to drive :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=104...
As has been said on here on many previous occasions, set up is critical on these cars, as are fresh tyres, healthy dampers, springs, top mounts and bushes. Critical too is the fitment of some decent rear toe links to eradicate the rear steer caused by the standard rear toe arm bushes deflecting under load and causing unwanted toe changes.
Many cars won't have had any ride height/corner weight adjustments in their life, whilst many will have had track biased set ups applied to nullify the understeer built in by the factory. Cars running their original springs and dampers will often have a saggy rear end (the springs sag with heat and age), this means the front to rear rake is incorrect and with the front end waving around in the breeze (only exacerbated by the rear end squatting under the engines non linear power delivery and copious torque), the handling can best be described as "character building".
It's these poorly set up cars, with dampers, springs and tyres past their best, that have garnered the GT2 it's "Widowmaker" tag. That and inexperienced drivers expecting the car to drive like 996 Turbo.
Drive a car with fresh tyres, fresh dampers, correctly set ride heights, corner weights and sensible toe and camber settings, and you'll find the cars to be very benign and enjoyable to drive. And let us not forget they have two feet of rubber on their rear wheels .....
The factory mapping isn't the best, it's non linear, accordingly they can seem rather flat, but when they do come on boost, it can upset the balance of the car (especially a poorly set up example)
I was always of the opinion that the last thing these cars needed was more horsepower, however once my second car had been remapped, I immediately appreciated the improved power delivery, so far from the extra power making the car more difficult to drive, it actually made it easier.
Fitting a decent suspension kit (Ruf, Bilsteins, KW's, Ohlins, Motons, JRZ's) takes these cars to another level and in the process makes them easier to drive still.
They can be driven rapidly in the wet without troubling the boost gauge, and on smooth, well surfaced roads, even in the wet, full power can be deployed if the throttle pedal is used judiciously. You'll need to concentrate and learn new levels of anticipation, as you'll find yourself travelling very quickly indeed (hard to believe, but almost as quickly as in a Cayman R)
and you'll also need to be able to read the road for changes in surface, cambers and bumps. Be prepared to put the effort in whilst driving them and the 996 GT2 will reward in a way a 996 Turbo never can.
Buy one, you'll not regret it
Slippydiff said:
"The second occasion occurred on a fast section of A road in N. Wales. Not concentrating, I approached an 80 Lepton bend at close to 120 Leptons. Realising my mistake too late, I braked as hard I dared without upsetting the balance/trajectory of the car, avoiding hitting the N/S kerb and also threading the car past the car approaching in the other lane.
It was a tight squeeze (and that was just my sphincter) eek But both the car and I escaped undamaged, though the same can't be said for my undercrackers ."
It was a tight squeeze (and that was just my sphincter) eek But both the car and I escaped undamaged, though the same can't be said for my undercrackers ."
contango said:
Reading the above, it sounds more like the owners have the potential to be the widowmakers, 120 nonchalent Mph on a public road with on coming traffic..... No wonder PH removed the "Speed matters" from their logo!
Precisely my point, hence my use of the term "operator error" that you conveniently appear to have ignored They're not dangerous "Widowmakers" per se, in reality they require nothing more than a modicum of common sense and concentration to drive quickly.They're quick cars, so much so that 99.9% of other road users won't have the faintest insight into their overtaking capabilities. Many was the time I overtook cars (I believe this practice has been outlawed now ?) in a completely safe fashion with perfect visibility, no upcoming junctions or hazards etc etc. Only to be flashed by an oncoming roaduser half a mile up the road.
Whilst they were frantically tugging on their headlamp flashers, the overtake was done and dusted (and with a simply huge safety margin).
Morning Jamie
jfp said:
An interesting thread Henry, driving mine recently must have re-kindled your enthusiasm.....?!
Categorically, absolutely not.Well maybe,
possibly,
probably,
ok, pretty much definitely
m33ufo said:
jfp said:
Highlights:
Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks.
The b@stard assured me it'd never been tracked! Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's.
Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker...
Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks.
It'll have been spanked more than all of Miss Whiplash's clients put together.Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 17th November 17:06
El Guapo said:
Slippydiff said:
Ok, this "Widowmaker" nonsense needs to stop, right here, right now
On the other hand, letting slip that you have tamed "the widowmaker" might lead people to imagine that you have large, gristly testicles.monthefish said:
Slippydiff said:
You'll appreciate that both incidents had nothing to do with the car, both were "operator error".
Surely that's the point.Even the most dangerous "widowmaker" car isn't actually going to kill anyone whilst parked up. Add in 'an operator' however...
996GT2 said:
I did 25k in mine and drove it on the Nurburgring, Spa, Brands, Thruxton, Bedford - I ran factory geo for most of the time until towards the end of my ownership I had it setup by Parr, it seemed worse if anything. I span it at Spa coming out of the bus stop with too much right foot, stopped next to the barrier just in time, very lucky. I span it on Brands GP coming through Clearways, the front went light over the crest as I turned in and it swapped ends leaving me facing the wrong way on the pit lane - s
t scary.
Parr may have tweaked the geometry Gav, but they didn't adjust the ride heights and/or corner weights. Accordingly the car suffered from the usual 996 GT2 affliction, that being a saggy arse and no rake. Chucking big camber on the front and rear would only have exacerbated the handling issues. But worse still the rear dampers were toast (leaking and thus providing little in the way of damping) not surprising at 66k miles. I can't remember, but my guess is the tyres were probably past their best.t scary.With the Ohlins fitted, the car was an awseome piece of kit, I suspect you'd have really enjoyed driving it on track with the mods I'd done.
996GT2 said:
I seem to remember they said they were adjusting the ride height as the adjusters were a real PITA to move. Whatever they did it didn't help much. In hindsight the dampers and everything else should have been replaced as they were no doubt the main issue, by the sounds of it you got the car properly sorted out, would have been great to drive it on that setup.
Don't suppose you know where the car is now do you? If it came up for sale I'd probably have it back again, third time lucky
I've just prepared a secondhand set of dampers for my GT3, it's boderline impossible to do on the car, and even off the car they're a complete PITA to free off (I ended up cutting the majority of spring seats and locking rings off, but managed to save the anti roll bar drop link brackets).Don't suppose you know where the car is now do you? If it came up for sale I'd probably have it back again, third time lucky
I'd be amazed if Parr removed the dampers do free them off, I'm equally doubtful they freed them off on the car, but without wishing to cast aspersions, my guess is the ride heights and cornerweights wouldn't have been adjusted ......
^ ...... the rear end is lower than the front in the above pic. It did look good though !
I know you weren't a massive fan of the ride height I ran the car at with the Ohlins on Gav, but it's ability to deal with compressions on the road at high speed (and undulating roads generally) was otherwordly. It was a truly an epic car.
Whilst searching through some paperwork yesterday, I found a copy of the original advert I'd printed off when I went to view the car. I really wish I hadn't sold it now
I dare say if you speak to Tom or Dan at 911V they might contact the present owner on your behalf.
hygt2 said:
Question: If the 996 GT2 is not dangerous and it does not scare you, why would you want to buy it in the first please??
Discuss.
Discuss.
Eh, what's to discuss ?
The GT2 is a challenge to drive quickly (and all the moreso if they're poorly set up/maintained), it's also a different drive to any of the other 996/997 GT3/2/C4/2S/Turbos, but that doesn't mean it's "dangerous" or indeed "scary".
However ANY turbocharged 460hp rear wheel drive car (without driver aids) can and probably will be dangerous in the wrong/inexperienced hands. But as I've stressed before, driven with a modicum of common sense and concentration, there's nothing intrinsically dangerous or scary about the 996 GT2.
As for the second part of your statement. I don't think I've ever bought a car because it scares me
simonoz said:
Only once have I ever broken the rule when one day I asked a trusted employee to move the GT2, from one garage to another. We think he lost the rear in second gear, jumped on the brakes, but hit the throttle because of the offset pedals. You wouldnt have believed the violence of it all if you hadnt seen it, as it all happened within 100 metres of a set of lights at which hed been stationary.
I loved that car, it had never bitten me
Your comments are telling, and actually concur with most other contributors comments (even Karls). I loved that car, it had never bitten me
Losing the rear of car in second gear doesn't just happen if you're using the throttle judiciously. If however you were to flatten the accelerator hoping to get the full effect of the massive surge available (this whilst on cold tyres, an uneven or wet surface) there's every chance it could and would happen. All the moreso if you weren't familiar with the standard car's peaky, non-linear power delivery.
A bit like Karl, I've been in the passenger seat of a 996 GT2 when it was crashed by an idiot driver trying to impress me with his non-existent driving skills. And you're right, it's a very brutal and violent experience.
It was of course "pilot error" and thus completely avoidable.
braddo said:
Given the caveats, I'm not convinced the myth is exploded.
Then there are the very sobering real-life accounts of things going wrong in these cars.
Let's say I have a pilots license and I've flown a Cessna Skyhawk for three years, my mate (himself an accomplished pilot) buys/leases himself a Learjet 85.Then there are the very sobering real-life accounts of things going wrong in these cars.
"Hey Slippy, you can fly yeh ?"
I say "Sure can".
"You should take my 85 up, see what you think."
I do, I crash it, we both die. Does that make the Learjet a "Widowmaker" ?
I fly a Robinson R44, my mate buys a Bell Jetranger, he says I should fly it because it makes my Robinson R44 look like stunned slug.
We go up, I crash it, I die, he ends up with two broken legs. Does that make the Bell Jetranger a "Widowmaker" ?
You can't expect to jump into what was the fastest car Porsche produced (until the CGT ?) and expect to take liberties with it. It's a stiffly sprung, 460hp rear wheel drive car with no driver aids whatsoever, course they'll spit you off the road if you take liberties with them !
The only "ifs" are : if you're endowed with a modicum of common sense, if you're respectful of what you're driving, if you're prepared to concentrate and if you're prepared to drive within your own capabilities. I've done 25k miles behind the wheel of a couple of 996 GT2's in ALL weathers. Others on here have done similar mileages and running more horsepower. They've all lived to tell the tale.
When the GT2 I was a passenger in crashed, I wasn't in the least bit surprised. We took off as the sliproad fell away (yep no kidding). I remember thinking "if this guy gathers this up, he's a driving god, if he doesn't this'll be the mother of all shunts". Of course he wasn't a driving god, if he had been, he'd have realised that wheels/tyres don't steer when their not in contact with the Tarmac, but more importantly, had he been a driving god, he wouldn't have tried to do what he was attempting in the first place ........
When we did land, the dope had put such a huge amount of opposite lock on whilst in mid air, the front wheels were pointing in the wrong direction.
When the front tyres hit the Tarmac, they bit and we turned 90 degrees left at something close to 80mph, unfortunately/fortunately, (depending on your view) the Armco was no more than 15 feet away. We hit it at unabated speed, I watched mesmerised as the front of the car went under the single layer Armco and said section of Armco made its way inexorably up the bonnet like a large, blunt guillotine.
It's true, time does slow down in these circumstances, I thus had time to consider meeting my maker, it wasn't long, but in the time I had available, I came to the conclusion the event itself would most likely be very quick and thus painless.
Then as the weight of the uprooted Armco (3 posts pulled clean out of the ground) and the increasing angle of the bonnet/depth of the front of the car overcame the forward motion, the car stopped and was then instantaneously catapaulted backwards by the energy stored in the Armco.
We did a full 360 degree spin before hitting the Armco on the same side again, this time with less force, but still sufficient to "eject" my glasses from my face.
That incident totally changed my perception of who I was prepared to sit alongside in a car. Before it I'd been happy to sit next to anyone in any car, regardless of their talent.
Now if I have ANY doubts, I just won't entertain sitting in the passenger seat. And even if I do sit next to someone I trust, but I think they're going to try and impress me, I make a point of saying to them "You don't need to drive quickly or try and impress me.........."
ArcticGT3 said:
It`s amazing how quickly people who think they`re talented run out of it when something unexpected happens.
Exactly, and when it goes wrong in a 996 GT2, rest assured you will be going quickly.I did a driving day in my first GT2 with Bernard Aubrey, we used Chobham (Longcross)
We went on the proving ground pad to play with the grip limits. It was quite simply staggering how much grip the tyres had on the smooth, grippy surface.
Even under severe provocation the rear tyres were unwilling to relinquish their grip. But Bernard went on to say the surface at Longcross is flat, grippy and smooth. On the road there'll be cambers, surface imperfections and changes in the types of tarmac, in short the grip levels will never be as consistent on the public roads. Thus the chance to lose adhesion is far higher. Throw in damp or wet roads and the situation changes again drastically.
Pip1968 said:
I have to say that I disagree with Henry's interesting post but I think it depends on your definition of "Widowmaker". I think the M16 or was it the AK-47, was also called the 'widowmaker' in NI. Those two weapons are also 'safe' in the right hands.
For me its about a car with minimal safety aids but easily lost even in professional hands and moreso with 'beginners' or those with over inflated egos.
Pip
Having looked back at this thread, I'm pleasantly surprised not only at the number of owners/ex-owners who contributed to it, but just how many said the 996 GT2 was a great car and that they enjoyed owning/driving them.For me its about a car with minimal safety aids but easily lost even in professional hands and moreso with 'beginners' or those with over inflated egos.
Pip
They're rare and special, not just because of their rarity, but because Porsche doesn't produce cars like them very often.
Out of all the cars I've owned, the GT2 along with the 997 Cup engined Mk1 996 GT3 and my old tweaked Impreza 22B were the one's I came to respect the most, because they were either flawed to some degree, or their performance was so easily accessible (that'd be the Impreza then)
The bottom line is this, in the wrong/inexperienced hands ANY car is a widowmaker. It's just that the average 1.0 Nissan Micra owner doesn't try and explore the limits of his and his cars abilities very often, whereas the owners of high/er performance cars do...
Widowmaker car ? (4WD, huge tyres, no doubt it has sophisticated TC or DSC too) or an inexperienced show off ? :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SGIJXbghxg
I used to know the roads (and indeed their foibles) that make up the Evo Triangle well, having lived just 30 minutes from them for nearly 6 years, and spent many happy hours driving them in all manner of cars and weather conditions.
Evo carried out their tests of cars on these roads with good reason, they have qualities that are excellent for exposing the weaknesses (and strengths) in any car's suspension. And it's those very same qualities that all too often catch out individuals who don't understand what they're doing, or indeed what they're driving ...
So here we have the same again, this time a 200hp Honda Civic on the Triangle (2 mins 24 secs) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoDAX1ZJ-g8
15 seconds earlier and he'd probably have done what another individual went on to do a couple of years later ...
Same with this individual, less than 5 seconds later/earlier and that innocent motorcyclist could easily have become another victim of a an idiot showing off to his mates :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpmXAoc3dew
And again :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_6IjnCcU1Y
All the latter feature relatively "mundane" cars, though I grant you the S2000 has gained a reputation for being spikey in extremis, yet in these instances they're driven by morons showing off to their mates or other drivers in their convoy, with little or no understanding of what they're doing, what they're driving, or indeed the roads they're driving on.
This was exactly the scenario when I was a passenger with another clueless, inept moron in 996 GT2. He could have killed both of us, and the Headlines would no doubt have read "Two die in Porsche supercar. Two males died when a Porsche supercar crashed yesterday, the £120K German supercar tagged the widowmaker because of its fearsome reputation, blah blah blah"
The car had nothing to do with the accident, the crash was solely down to the idiot driving it (probably showing off) and his inability to read the road and appreciate just how quickly the car could accelerate in such a short space of time.
I'd already spent 12 months driving my 996 GT2, so I had a pretty good idea what a GT2 was capable of, and what I was experiencing in the moments (5-7 seconds) prior to the crash, told me two things, either the individual at the wheel was a driving god, or we were going to have the mother of all shunts, and on the basis of the previous 20 minutes as a passenger with him, I KNEW we were going to crash... so much so I quite literally hunkered down in my seat and braced myself for what I guessed would be a huge impact at some point.
If you'd tried the same cretinous manoeuvre in Transit van or indeed a Trans Am, the end result would've been the same. You can't beat the laws of physics.
Whilst the crash shocked me, I think I was more shocked that in the immediate aftermath of the shunt, the driver alleged he "didn't know what had happened" !!
Duh !!
APOLO1 said:
I had a 996GT2 new back in 02, thought it was great car it was my daily use car also back then as well as track days. Kept it 2 years and 14k miles it had a mild GEO setup on it. One of the best driving 911s I have owned.
Note aero kitted 996 Turbo owner muttering "I wish I'd spent the extra on a GT2 now" under his breath as he fights arm aching understeer and "supertanker in a heavy swell", levels of roll behind Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff