997 GT3 Gen1 clubsport

[Steve Rance]

I have felt for a long time that a vanilla Gen1 997 GT3 has the potential to be an absolute stunner of a car so i've put my money where my mouth is bought one. The plan is to keep the car as standard as possible so upgrades will only be done on the damping, geo and brake bias. I think that with a minimal amount of expenditure a vanilla Gen1 can be transformed into the car that it always should have been. Anyway, thats my hope.

I'll keep those of you who may have an interest updated as things progress

[Steve Rance]

Great minds and all that old Boy! Nothing sold, I think that any decent damper will suffice. The 997 cup is such a lovely thing compared to the 996 but the road car never reflected it. Porsche did an injustice to a much better platform. It will be interesting to see what can be done with a little fettling

[Steve Rance]

keep it lit said:

Yeah I guessed as much listening to your recents hints.. well done!! pics & plans please old bean

Will do old chap

[Steve Rance]

Slippydiff said:

Good to hear Steve, the Speed yellow example at The Supercar Rooms I presume ? Looked a cracker. A friend was interested in it, he decided against it as he really wants a Gen 1 997 GT3 RS. My thoughts were that the Speed yellow Clubsport is a narrow body RS (in a great colour) for £45k less than an RS, £45k allows you to buy a lot of upgrades/goodies !

That's the car Sherlock. Well done!!!! How on earth???!

[Steve Rance]

Absolutely. Would be very nice to meet up!

[Steve Rance]

V8KSN said:

For purely selfish reasons, this is great news

Really interested in what you do with it and the mods you make. Congratulations on the purchase too!

Thank you. Chris Harris saw the potential but just when he'd almost got there, got the chance of a 4.0 and sold it. I maintain that a very well sorted 7.1 will be as good

[Steve Rance]

Thanks Chaps. i will get the car back, get it fully checked over then probably start thinking about the damper and geo combination first. I've had some very good experiences with JRZ on GT3's. They were also fitted to the 996Cup that I raced. Very nice control. On saying that i'm open minded. I will probably start with one of the geos that we put onto the 6RS. The brake bias will need some thinking about. For me it's far too rearward on the 997 and makes the onset of oversteer much more likely during a trail and generally more difficult to trim the car on the brakes. Big Alcons on the front and harder rear pads may help but in terms of economy, 997 cup fronts may be the way forward.

I am temped to take the pasm units and ancilleries to my local scrap yard, have them fragmentised, burn the remains, have them re heated and sculptured into a giant lemon shaped suppository with 'for crimes against motoring' inscribed upon it. This could be sent back to Porsche as a present to be ceremonially inserted into the engineer that designed it. Although this idea appeals greatly to me, I suppose that, instead I should keep then locked in a vault underground somewhere, just in case I sell the car on one day...

I do not have a target time for the car per se but the set up MUST be road compliant with little adjustment so an assister spring set up is probably a must. The 997 has shorter gearing than the 996 so a cup final drive may not be needed but i like more locking under acceleration and braking so I'll have a look at the diff to see what state it's in.

One of the reasons that I bought the car is that although it's a club sport, the belts and extinguisher are still unfitted and there is no sign of any track use so i'm hopeful that mechanically there are few potential demons.

I really am looking forward to this project. I think that Porsche have sent a clear message of intent with the next generation of GT cars and that - with the end of the M engine production - will put upward price pressure on all 996 and 997 GT3's. Now that anything with a GT3RS badge on it is selling north of £100K - some well north, they are becoming more impractical to track. The vanilla gen 2 996 and the Gen 1 997 are very good value against that back drop now and to me represent the last realistic option of road / track ownership.

I said earlier that I didn't have a target time for the car but i'd be disappointed if it wasn't substantially quicker and far more predictable and enjoyable to drive than the standard car on the track and a nicer car to drive on the road.

[Steve Rance]

jackwood said:

Do you think there is the possibility that something like TPC DSC module might solve some of the PASM issues? It seems to be getting some good reviews in the US now that it becoming available.
Wouldn't the PASM work ok if it was non-active? As in the valves are just locked into one of the two positions. Ignoring the actual quality of the damper themselves, wouldn't this give you at least the consistency that you say is lacking from the active system.

Regarding the diff, the 997 has different ramps to the 996 (996 having more aggressive angles). Will you be looking at altering the ramps or just going for a Motorsport plate pack with the increased pre-load?

Intestingly, I am looking at that damping option ( there are a few options based on the current damper ) but I will need more adjastability than this option can give and Its probable that the quality of damping control won't suit my needs. Re; the diff, at the moment, a motorsport pack with more pre load is looking favourite. I think that the ramping is pretty easy to adjust either way. If Im going for a cup final drive, it would make sense to do that at the same time.

[Steve Rance]

fioran0 said:

Said the same for a long long time.
Put some cup aero on it and it will be just beautiful.....

Congrats on the new car. Hope it gives you as much fun as you are hoping for.

Now where are the pics?

Wil do as soon as I get some old chap. in the mean time, the car can be seen on the Supercar showrooms website. There are some decent images of it there.

Interesting that you should mention the aero. Rather stupidly I hadn't considered that. What aero would you suggest upgrading?

[Steve Rance]

keep it lit said:

Yeah I guessed as much listening to your recents hints.. well done!! pics & plans please old bean

I wouldn't be buying one if you hadn't beaten me to that lovely 996! So glad that beautiful beast ( still remains the best 6RS that i've ever driven) has gone to a home that is truly going to appreciate it's greatness!

[Steve Rance]

That car really is quite amazing

[Steve Rance]

Mermaid said:

Will follow this with interest, and as 997.1 CS prices go into the ascendency.

Yes, that's the worry! I bought my 993 as primarily a track only tool. Now, the value is so high that the 997 has become viable and the 993,a track risk. It's pretty obvious that the Gen 1 97 and the gen 2 96 are undervalued when compared to the gen 2 97 and the RS's so I suppose it's only a matter of time. Either way, I have decided to see this through and continue to track the 997. The like of these cars won't be seen again and they are just too great an experience to miss

[Steve Rance]

As it should be Old Boy!!

[Steve Rance]

Balancing that chap at the front must be one large splitter! Thanks for the heads up on the diff. I'm expecting bad news. Thankfully motorsport parts are not horrifically expensive. I think I'm going to hold off big aero changes. My aim is to keep the car as standard as possible. We got the 996 going pretty well without any aero changes.

[Steve Rance]

Thanks for the input guys. First, let me clarify the main issues that i have with PASM. It's a reactive variable damping rate and that means; Firstly, its difficult to predict exactly what the car is going to do the nearer to 10/10th you get which is the last thing you want as a driver. Secondly, It fights a driver trying to load the nose of the car on a trail in slow and medium corners which - again - makes things unpleasantly difficult near the limit. Thirdly, as Neil says, the spring rate cannot be paired to the ideal shock rate because there are two modes which are too extreme to work to. The first two factors turn what should be a supreme and delicate track car into a potentially dangerous one. The third…. well it's just useless. Thats without looking at the actual control of the PASM dampers - which is probably not ideal either. The spring rate - as Neil says is key. Without the very high grip factor of slicks, there is scope for a nice compromise between road and track for the rates. The dampers will then be set up with two primary settings . One which will be a dry track set up and the other which will be a wet track set up/ road use (although obviously there is scope for the full spectrum in-between)
. Both will operate at the opposite ends of the effective working range of the spring rates selected. This will (should) provide a lovely stable, reliable and predictable platform for the chassis to work from on the road and track. This will (should) allow me to trail in on a later brake and get on the throttle earlier on the apex - with the car reacting to my inputs rather than the other way around.

The diff will almost certainly be fitted with a motorsport pack with 40:60 or 50:70 ramping. Top mounts will probably be changed with the dampers and motorsport control arms fitted. Brakes will probably be 997 Cup fronts with paged yellow pads and a hard pad material on the rear. We found a way of running pretty high degrees of front camber without needing a motorsport ABS unit on the 996 so we have the same aim on the 997. The only thing that concerns me now is rear braking 'interference'. I don't want it so need to do some research here. Does anyone know the score? If I turn traction off will there be ABS interference only? What does the sport button do when the dampers are thrown away? noisy exhausts have no interest to me so if it doesn't help the car's performance, I'd rather not have it on. Will I need to switch it on to stop rear braking interference?

I'll probably go with the BBS one piece track wheels with no other external clues ( aero ) that the car is not standard - although the geo my give it away to the trained eye.

[Steve Rance]

Thank you for taking the trouble to reply gentlemen. That is useful info.

[Steve Rance]

Gentlemen, this information is extremely useful. Mt initial thoughts are that The diff set up and function is key if a car is to be built maximise an analogue nature. The rearward brake bias under initial braking can be utilised more effectively if a particular braking technique were required and there appears to be more scope for front camber on the 97 than the 996 as the abs may not be as restricting as there is less front bias on initial braking. It looks like, getting the most out of a 997 is going to be interesting in terms of set up and driving technique when compared to a 996.

Certainly its pretty obvious why the 997 cup has an adjustable brake bias system. its also obvious why there is a huge void between the driving dynamics of the 997 road car (GT3) and the Cup car. I originally thought that this was solely a PASM issue but it clearly goes a lot deeper than that. My aim is to create similar dynamics of the 997 Cup in my road GT3 and from the past few posts I think i'm feeling a bit more optimistic but it's going to be a little tricky.

[Steve Rance]

Slippydiff said:

Morning Steve. Couldn't sleep thinking about the new toy ?
Neil has frequently said in the past that the 996 GT3's (and I think specifically the Mk1) were the closest to their Cup counterparts, and that as the GT3 has evolved, it's Cup counterparts have got further and further removed from the road cars.
It was always going to happen as the engineers at Stuttgart sought to tame the inherent "issues" of the rear engine layout for fast road use.

Ha. unfortunately not. lots of work to do before the christmas break. Yep, any 996 is a very close descendant. My 6RS was basically the same as the 6 Cup that I raced in terms of feel and dynamics - not close, I mean the same. After my first test in a 7 Cup, I couldn't believe how good the package was and how beautiful it was to drive. The road car was so different, the lack of feel by comparison very marked. The great thing is that it has the capacity to be a lot better…

[Steve Rance]

Sounds like you've had a fun journey getting to where you want to be. That's the joy of the 996, the elements are already there, With the 997, more work will be needed but I think in the end, the main difference will be getting the bias right. I really do not want to have to drive around a moving bias and would much prefer a mechanical diff to stabilise the rear of the car under braking. In the 997 cup,/ on the track you want the bias as far to the front as possible unless conditions are slippery.

The one thing that I don't think that we will be able to replicate is the level of engagement through the chassis that the 996 has. It's chassis isn't as stiff as the 997 but it's not too soft as to ruin the spring damping platform. Just enough to give that extra little bit of 'aliveness' - call it what you will - that makes it such a delight to drive. The 977 will be slightly more clinical /efficient and slightly less engaging in this area because of it. The upside is that ihas more potential and may well more engaging in different ways.

[Steve Rance]

fioran0 said:

Steve,

Im interested to hear where you are aiming with this a little more. Its been interesting reading your posts of late and hearing your views from behind the wheel.

I know we are on the same page with regards the car and how much the platform has to offer (having had the pleasure of the 997 cups) when it comes to the road car.

Theres some interesting things introducing with the 997 Cup that moves it away from the street cars and the 996 cup from the driving perspective though and your comments ref the 996 prompted me to ask.
These aspects raise some interesting questions if one is wanting to take a 997 GT3 further in this direction that just opening up the car and involve some hard decisions. Its not that they are difficult technically to achieve but that they require an approach that would very much be beyond that which was needed to remove the layer of insulation and reveal the platform for what it can be.

The 996 Cup can very much be driven in the same basic way one drives all the street cars (including the most fettled track modded ones) i.e. you drive on the front end with a ton of steering feel and control.
The 997 cup is absolutely not driven in this way and trying to do it leaves you ploughing wide.
Instead you drive it from the rear end, with pretty much zero steering feel and learn to trust it. I always found the big braking was done hard and fast using the massive brake force the car can pull in the initial phase.
This whole aspect was probably the single biggest hump to get over when I moved up to 997 tbh. It wasn't like any approach id used before.

The other obvious difference with the 997 Cup is that its not a car that you drive holding the wheel between the fingertips of your thumb and forefinger, pinkies aloft as you massage the pedals with some italian loafers. Its a car that responds to being treated like a mean ba$tard. Its a physical drive and treating the road car like this, even with race dampers etc would leave it crying.

Ignoring the intensity, the noise and the concentration levels needed in any 996 or 997 Cup, these two aspects above are strong features of the 997 cup from the drivers seat imho.

And this gets back round to my original point. Are you coming with the objective that you want to let the qualities of the 997 platform out or are you wanting to take it a level beyond that to try and replicate these aspects of the 997 cup in your car too. I see the potential in both approaches btw, I was just interested to hear where you are at in your head.

I appreciate that its still a conceptual process and these things often resolve organically once one starts - when do you get the car btw? - so feel free to ignore.

Hi Neil

Apologies for the delay. I wanted to give you a considered reply.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. As you say, the 996 Cup has a more delicate feel through the steering and brakes compared to the 97 Cup. Actually I found the electric steering on the 997 pretty good and the weight saving was useful. The feel is not as good as the 996 but it's ok. It was the brakes that are horribly wooden compared to the 996. As you say, this encourages a much more 'leap of faith' driving style, although in time it is possible to dial yourself into the car and drive on 100% feel and adopt the same style as a 996 - but it isn't as easy. I know a lot of very good drivers that struggled to get to terms with the 997. Oddly, for different reasons it's the brakes on the road car that are giving me the biggest headache at this stage. The moving bias/ABD is a real problem to me. For my needs, the diff function needs to be completely separate from the braking system. I must be able to rely on the diff being consistant and push the brake bias a lot more forward. As you say, currently under the initial braking phase, there is no surplus capacity for the rear brakes to do anything else and In slow corners, Ill be taking almost 100% brake on turn in so, again hardly any capacity for them to help the diff - so where does that leave the effectiveness of the diff in the current set up during the phase that I most need it? Whats worse is that it's mechanical function is made of chocolate. I've had several moments in 997Gt3's on the track where the car has gone into oversteer without any prior warning just after turn in. Until now, i'd put this down to me applying too much brake trying to drive around understeer caused by the dreaded PASM. I now believe that these were possibly caused by rear braking of the loaded wheel by the ABD system and not by the PASM. This is interesting because if i'm right, in it's standard form the car actually has the worst of both worlds because of it's active systems. PASM encouraging understeer during certain phases and ABD encouraging oversteer in certain phases. I think that because some drivers do not ask the car to operate in the performance zone where these issues may occur, its a non problem. For the driver who does achieve these performance levels, it can be a real problem.

For me, both 'active' systems (PASM and ABD - lets call it the brake assisted diff) have to go in order to create a stable platform. It's essential to have 100% confidence in a car's predictability at 1-11/10ths. To 'get rid' of the ABD, I'm hoping that a motorsport diff pack with 40:60 ramping will work. I am aware that I'm relying on preventing the circumstances for the ABD sensors being triggered here. The part of this process that worries me is whether the ABS sensor has the ABD function as part of its programming or whether it's a separate control unit. If its a separate unit, the next issue is to get the brake bias further forward. If it's part of the ABS function, i may have a lot more problems. The good news here is that the peddle feel should be much better than the 997 cup so hopefully once the bias issue is resolved, braking will have a lovely feel. With the braking, i'll start 'greedy' and try to add more braking capacity to the front rather than removing it from the rear but that all comes down to balancing braking capability with the grip factor of the front tyres as I won't want front camber compromised. This was the only real problem that we had with the 996. We couldn't run the front camber that we wanted to because the contact patch was too small under braking and the ABS kept kicking in. We can't fit a 997 motorsport unit because it didn't have one and I don't want to fit the 996 unit because it would make the car a bit of a hybrid which in an ideal world i don't want.

Once the Diff and braking issues are sorted, the damping and geo will be a doodle. The final touch will be a cup steering wheel. It makes a noticeable difference to steering feel to ditch the extra weight of the airbag etc.. (providing you can live with the extra kick back which I rather enjoy).

We were absolutely spoiled with the 996. We just changed the damping, spent a lot of time and effort perfecting different geos from blunt to super sharp, threw on some beefed up front discs, a set of yellows and a cup steering wheel. Hey presto! you had a stunning car that pretty much dynamically mirrored the cup. With the 997 it will be different because as you say, the 997 Cup has unique differences to the road car, mainly electric steering and no abs just an adjustable bias. In some ways these systems are not net losses to the road car. The Electric steering does give a chunky weight saving gain and the feel isn't too far behind the normal rack but I think for the level of tuning that i'm looking for, I'll take the normal rack and a little more feel. The brakes are a real double edged sword. On the one hand, the road car forgoes the infinite bias adjustability of the race car but on the other hand it has a lot more pedal feel that the race system and - being a road car - really should retain it's abs system. The problem is that the bias is wrong and undoing/correcting it may be a problem. If we are lucky, the road car may end up with nicer steering and a better brake feel than the race car. Finally, the race car has a proper diff and damping which the road car certainly does not. These are both losses that the road car really does miss.

So to answer your question - what am i looking for from the car. I think it will not be possible to mirror the Cup experience because some elements of the cup car cannot realistically be relocated on the road car. But in some ways that will not be a loss to the driving experience because the braking and steering feel of the Cup car are not porsche's finest hour in terms of driving enjoyment - which is what this project is all about. Ideally, I wanted to do what we did to the 996. Bolt on some springs and dampers, stronger front brakes, geo etc. and unlock a stunning road track tool with the minimum of fettling. With the 997 it is no going to be as easy but the philosophy is the same. To unlock as much of the true dynamic potential of the car as possible with the minimum of modifications. I think that this journey is going to be difficult to plot but I am hopeful that we may create something very special.