GT3 Over revs - AGAIN!

[BigO1977]

Hi all,

I've already been emailing/talking to some of you, for which I'm grateful.

I own GT08FUN - Cobalt Blue, 2008, 997.1 GT3 Club Sport (Carbon seats, ceramic brakes, half cage, harness etc etc), 23k.

I've recently decided to sell, after 3300 miles and 15 months of ownership - all of which has been without issue or damage.

The car is immaculate and still under Porsche warranty till December 2015.

Problem.... it was over revved in range 1-4 over 600 hours ago (Approx 4/5 years ago) - as far as I'm concerned and as far as my Porsche main dealer is concerned and 2 of the leading independent dealers are concerned there is absolutely no issue with my car - it was compression tested in Nov 2013 with no fault (prior to last 2 year Porsche warranty being applied).

I've been back to Porsche today for a general check up and to also check that I haven't over revved during my ownership, which they have confirmed that I haven't. The senior technician who checked the car over agreed with the sentiments above - he's had previous experience working on the super cup cars.

Dilemma - I want to achieve top money for my car, but some of the super geeks think it's a nail, or at least their tone suggests it!

Just to confirm - Porsche & the Independents have offered to buy the car from me at a 'reasonable' price.

If anyone has some genuine advice, I'd be eternally grateful.

Edited by BigO1977 on Wednesday 4th March 13:03

[BigO1977]

Porsche have offered to buy the car back (waiting buyer?!?) and have confirmed that they will renew the warranty. Just checked the paperwork and it's actually till April 2016, so plenty of time left on the existing warranty.

I paid the market rate for a low miler CS spec 997.1 from the main dealer at the time - December 2013.

I don't think I paid 'a lot less' as some are suggesting - I paid less that I want for it now, but isn't that the market?!?

Thanks for everyone's responses - And I think most agree that a car with over revs more than 600 hours ago that has been compression tested by the main dealer and has a current warranty, in addition to being offered a buy back by the same dealer, shouldn't be impacted too much by the over revs from many many years ago.

I can't even begin to imagine what my previous 993's & 964's have gone through on the over rev front, but I suppose that isn't a concern to the market.

When I say I want 'top money', I'm not unreasonable, but I don't want to offload the car for less than it's current worth, that's all. That said, the market is still very strong and the colour/spec/miles combination is pretty unique.

[BigO1977]

V8KSN said:

Out of interest, what do you think you will advertise it at?

Just curious really as I have a 997.1 GT3 with fatty bum bum seats and PCCB's but with a little more mileage than yours (as a side note, my car has NO over revs in any rev range)

Colour and Warranty?

I could do with the fatty bum seats - my ass is way too big for the carbon buckets.

No over revs is quite rare, I'm led to believe by the independents I've spoken to. I'll be advertising it this weekend, so wait and see!

It will be more than I've been offered by Porsche and Indy's, that's for sure.

[BigO1977]

pete a said:

On a GT3 does bouncing off the rev limiter register over revs or not, or does the limiter do its job and prevent this?

Pete - I've been told by a very well respected independent - 'you could drive the GT3 round the track all day bouncing off the rev limited and it won't register any over revs'.

However, if the driver changes from 5th to 2nd, it'll probably register an over rev.

The limiter prevents over revs on the up change, not the down change.

This is the way I understand it anyway.

[BigO1977]

Scooty100 said:

We are thinking along the same lines Soov535 be interesting to know what sort of discount he bought the car for if at all. Also agreed if it has a Porsche warranty then all well and good until the warranty expires or the car is to old to warranty

What difference does it make how much I bought the car for 15 months ago?

I bought it from a main dealer as a warranted, low mileage, rare coloured, club sport spec - I can tell you now that they weren't offering much in the way of discount! They did throw in a replacement front splitter and quite a few cups of coffee.

They want to buy it back - doesn't that speak volumes, or am I being completely naive?

I've bought a lot of sports cars from main dealers and independents - I can honestly say that Porsche have been by far and away the best of the bunch.

When the warranty expires, you just pay to have another one put on it - isn't that the way everyone does it? I can't comment on how the car will be driven by the next owner, so if they over rev it then they need to heed the consequences - Porsche are unlikely to warrant a car that's been over revved in the last 100 hours - that's what the technician said to me this morning.

[BigO1977]

V8KSN said:

Colour is GT Silver (very vanilla but I like it) and the warranty ran out three weeks ago... I didn't renew it.

Really nice colour - I like. Why don't you get a warranty on it? If you don't mind me asking.

[BigO1977]

GoatRider said:

The rev limiter protects the engine and is not damaging, although it is not a good idea to habitually bounce off it. Over revving is much worse. It happens when you e.g. go screaming into a corner, miss a gear by mistake going from say 5th to 3rd and force the engine to rev above the normal safe revving parameter (as set out by Porsche for any given engine).

Not a good idea to habitually bounce off it, but nevertheless untraceable.

Over revs are very common, but agree'd not ideal. If they've happened recently (last 50 hours) than if I was a buyer and not a seller I'd be asking for a compression test and would really want a porsche warranty (unless I could get the car for £50k!).

Over rev 600 hours ago....... Please tell me you see the point I'm trying to make with this post - if the engine was going to go 'pop', it would have within 20/30 hours of the over rev. 600 hours on, and a compression test later, the car drives as if it only has 23,000 miles on the clock, which is exactly what it has on the clock.

[BigO1977]

PorscheGT4 said:

only things which go wrong are not covered , engine is strong as an ox

every thing else fails but most of it is classed as consumables

My old 997 C2S had the baffle go on the sports exhaust - luckily, under warranty. £2000.

[BigO1977]

graeme4130 said:

As food for thought ; How much would you expect the difference to be between a perfect example car and a car [like yours] showing a RR4 on the engine ?
Lets just say it's £10k difference : How much would an OPC charge to rebuild the engine and clear the issue completely ?
If there's an alpha difference, then surely this is the answer. Not only that, but a car with a recent Porsche Warranted rebuild is likely to fetch a better figure, no ?

The car you have has grown in value massively over the last 18months or so, and as such, is attracting a broader spectrum of buyers as the higher values have put them into the radar of the speculator market as well as the geeky enthusiasts that have typically coveted GT3's and are likely to be more aware of RR issues

Unfortunately, the RR issue has reduced in profile (on PH, certainly) recently, but threads like this only serve to perpetuate the problem

How many manual sports cars over the years have been massively over revved, but it's gone unrecorded, and hence people buy unaware and unbothered by a history that might not cause any problems whatsoever down the line.

From what I've learnt this week, I don't think that the difference in value between a 'holy grail' and mine is quite as much as £10k. The market is strong enough to absorb the whole over rev thing - my post only goes to highlight how many genuine enthusiasts actually listen to the advice of the main dealers and independents (who inevitably are ex-Porsche technicians) - car's that have been over revved a significant period of time ago aren't deemed as an issue. One of the guys at Solihull Porsche suggested that the issue is something that Porsche themselves highlighted following an individual case where an engine (warranted car) was over revved and then blew up - but hey, there are many marques out there that have been thrashed and then subsequently blown up, not just GT3's.

[BigO1977]

V8KSN said:

IMO, It's not worth the money. I would rather put the cash aside and/or spend the cash on other things.

Having said that though, the warranty it had when I bought it covered a new condenser for the air conditioning system (£unknown) and a new amplifier for the stereo (£700) and this was when the car was running the following:

Michelin Super Sport tyres
RSS Engine mounts
Hayward and Scott bypass exhaust
Techart front shock top mounts
997.2 RS rear brake cooling ducts
BMC Air filter

So in my experience, the warranty is not as 'restrictive' as some claim it to be and you can get warranty work done if you have made modifications.

As a side note, I think the next steps for me with this car are the following:

exe-tc single way suspension
997 GT3 rally car LSD
RSS coffin arms and dog links

and when funds allow....

3.9l engine conversion

Rally car LSD..... What's that all about then?

[BigO1977]

Here is is BTW.

[BigO1977]

Scooty100 said:

OP if you read the question properly its asking IF you bought the car for a discount relative to others at the time and there was no mention of asking what you paid for it!

YOu didn't offer that information in the original post so in order to understand a little more of the history and give you a realistic price comparison its not unrealistic to ask.

Sounds like the car is a goodun anyhow as the OPC will buy it back and it has a current warranty. Wonder if they will give you more than you paid for it though? Others as you have highlighted have risen considerably in the last 15 months

They've offered a lot more than I paid for it. Part of me wants to sell it to them so they pay more for a car they previously sold, the other part of me just wants as much as I can get. Obviously.

Let's just say - I wish I'd bought all of the GT3's on sale at the time (they were all similar money). I'd be sitting on a nice little car lot.... over revs or not!

[BigO1977]

berty37 said:

RR1 in a 997 GT3 is classed as 9000-9200 I think. I read a while ago hitting the limiter does cause it to register an RR1. Its why some cars can have quite a few RR1's and then nothing from RR2-6. A bit of spirited driving as opposed to doing a bad mis shift. Porsche don't care about RR1 or RR2 a while ago even 3 was passed easily but now some ask for a compression test.

Apparently, the Turbo's are very susceptible to over rev in R1 due to the speed catching owners out.

We've all suffered a miss shift at one time or another - I remember having real problems with a Maserati 222 with a dog leg box a few years back.... which doesn't suggest that the car has been thrashed, just a little user error. The fact is that the Germans work to pretty significant tolerances on their engines - the GT3, as mentioned in an earlier response, has a bullet proof engine and gearbox. Just look at what they're built for..

[BigO1977]

pete a said:

Sure did, there are not many red 997.1's about so i jumped on it pretty quick when they got it.
Strangely as much as i love the car i have some insane urge to get an RS, would love Green but they are not about, so maybe orange????

its an addiction of sorts i'm sure.

A very healthy addiction.

[BigO1977]

V8KSN said:

I'd venture to suggest that cars with no rev ranges whatsoever (i.e. even range 1, at/everso slightly over the limiter) have been driven sympathetically by people who don't miss shifts!

Mine gets spanked!

But spanked doesn't mean you miss shifts and over rev..... surely?

[BigO1977]

pete a said:

And that is what confuses me, does anyone no for certain? I bought my car from JZM and it had 18 ignitions in RR1 and none in 2-5, so all ok in my opinion.
in my ownership i have bounced it of the limiter when overtaking maybe two or three times, just curious as whether i've racked up more RR1's or not.
i'll probably get them to do me a DME report when i have it serviced next, the results should be interesting as i have definitely not pissed up a downshift.

Bouncing off the rev limited is fine - you won't see any difference from the original RR1 over revs.

[BigO1977]

Steve Rance said:

Too much hysteria relating to rev range incidents in Mezger engines. It is a racing unit that will take 12000 rpm buzzes and hold together. I buzed a 996 Cup to nearly 12k when i missed a downshift at Castle coombe. We fitted a new clutch after quali and it ran for the races - which it won - and for another 50 hours until the end of the season. All the internals were checked during the refresh and were absolutely fine with no sign of any wear or damage.

These engine get abused all of the time in racing environments and regularly record 11-12000RPM on thier motec loggers. I dont know of any engine that failed as a result or - more tellingly - of any team that thought it appropriate to consider an immediate rebuild/refresh. They are a £40k unit to replace so if there was a hint of the need for a rebuilt, it would get done and they take a huge ammount more abuse in a racing environment compared to the road

Your car will be absolutely fine with the miniscule number of ingitions in the rev range incident. If there would have been any damage (which there wouldnt), it would have happened within a few hours of the incident.

I spent a long time looking for a good 997.1 Clubbie and would not have been put off in the slightest by the rev ranges that your car has recorded. The engine has been developed to withstand that and a whole lot more.

Appreciate your comments - Castle Coombe is my old stomping ground when I lived in Bristol. Great track - takes no prisoners.

[BigO1977]

Steve Rance said:

Yes. A chap and his testicles become somewhat closer at that circuit

Never forget a mate of mine chasing me (Dialynx RS4) in his Alfa GTV Cup - I saw him airborne over that crest in my rear mirror then sliding across the S bend into the tyres.

Off topic, but very amusing.

[BigO1977]

mm450exc said:

OP - Why you selling anyway? Very nice car!

i8 arrives in a few weeks and I don't have the space to keep the GT3.

I'm hoping to order an RS this week, but can't rely on the ballot.

[BigO1977]

pete a said:

Agreed, with that spec and in blue £84,995. All the other cars are white, whites nice, but popular.

£85k would be nice.