Still Undecided 991 Turbo S
Discussion
Well thanks to a fantastic morning at Millbrook with McLaren in the 570S, i'm now if anything going backwards in my decision making process.
After a 20min accompanied test drive around unfamiliar roads a few weeks back, the 570S really didn't light me up, however taking it round Millbrook & getting some hot PAX laps with a Pro Driver & seeing every colour in the sunlight, i'm now back to being Mr Undecided.
Bottom line is out of the 3 cars the 570S is by far the closest to a Supercar & would comfortably (as has happened in the motoring press) take the title of best Sports Car, however that does mean it's certainly more raw than the R8 & 911 & that may become an issue for more mundane tasks such as a long commute.
The Turbo S is certainly the quickest off the line but on the mile straight in the 570S without LC we hit 175mph on the dash & that included braking to 50mph before the end of the straight, so once rolling it piles the speed on a ludicrous rate. Did feel slower than the Turbo S but the dash was telling me perhaps not that much slower. The driving position is out & out racing car & a significant step up from even the higher value Mk1 McL's such as the 12C & 650S as the 570S has a totally new chassis & carbon tub that McL appear to refer to as Version 2.
You 100% feel like you're in a Sports Car when driving the McL which isn't something i really felt in the Porsche or R8 as these were more very Sporty very fast cars.
To try an explanation in numbers, my M5 is say 50% luxury cruiser & 50% performance car (i'd bestow a similar figure to the RS6's & the like), the 991 Turbo S is 30% luxury cruiser, 30% performance car & 40% sports car. The R8 V10+ is 20% luxury cruiser, 50% performance car & 30% sports car with the 570S being 10% luxury cruiser, 20% performance car & 70% sports car. This as daft as it sounds makes the decision tough as it's a true Sports car i want which would point straight at the McL, however that itself in these cars would offer up some significant compromises that i may not be able to live with. If i wanted the very best all rounder the Turbo S would win by a country mile, but the R8 offered up an aural experience i was shocked by & that stirred senses neither the Porsche or the McL did.
All that said, the 570S made me feel like a racing driver (sorry for the poor description) & you felt like you were driving something very special. It's on track ability was out of this world & don't tell any owners of the McL Supercar range, but during a McL event in Sepang, the 570s was quicker on track than the 675LT in the hands of all the Pro drivers which let's be honest is quite some accomplishment & perhaps supports McL's Marketing tag line of the 570S being a game changer.
Going to try to encourage my local OPC to book me onto the Porsche Experience at Silverstone ahead of ordering as i feel i need to see/drive the Turbo S closer to it's limits in the same way the 570S presented itself today. My hope when i left for Millbrook this morning was that my decision would be made & a Turbo S order would be being completed in the next few days but sadly for somewhat unexpected reasons i'm more undecided now that i was this morning.
After a 20min accompanied test drive around unfamiliar roads a few weeks back, the 570S really didn't light me up, however taking it round Millbrook & getting some hot PAX laps with a Pro Driver & seeing every colour in the sunlight, i'm now back to being Mr Undecided.
Bottom line is out of the 3 cars the 570S is by far the closest to a Supercar & would comfortably (as has happened in the motoring press) take the title of best Sports Car, however that does mean it's certainly more raw than the R8 & 911 & that may become an issue for more mundane tasks such as a long commute.
The Turbo S is certainly the quickest off the line but on the mile straight in the 570S without LC we hit 175mph on the dash & that included braking to 50mph before the end of the straight, so once rolling it piles the speed on a ludicrous rate. Did feel slower than the Turbo S but the dash was telling me perhaps not that much slower. The driving position is out & out racing car & a significant step up from even the higher value Mk1 McL's such as the 12C & 650S as the 570S has a totally new chassis & carbon tub that McL appear to refer to as Version 2.
You 100% feel like you're in a Sports Car when driving the McL which isn't something i really felt in the Porsche or R8 as these were more very Sporty very fast cars.
To try an explanation in numbers, my M5 is say 50% luxury cruiser & 50% performance car (i'd bestow a similar figure to the RS6's & the like), the 991 Turbo S is 30% luxury cruiser, 30% performance car & 40% sports car. The R8 V10+ is 20% luxury cruiser, 50% performance car & 30% sports car with the 570S being 10% luxury cruiser, 20% performance car & 70% sports car. This as daft as it sounds makes the decision tough as it's a true Sports car i want which would point straight at the McL, however that itself in these cars would offer up some significant compromises that i may not be able to live with. If i wanted the very best all rounder the Turbo S would win by a country mile, but the R8 offered up an aural experience i was shocked by & that stirred senses neither the Porsche or the McL did.
All that said, the 570S made me feel like a racing driver (sorry for the poor description) & you felt like you were driving something very special. It's on track ability was out of this world & don't tell any owners of the McL Supercar range, but during a McL event in Sepang, the 570s was quicker on track than the 675LT in the hands of all the Pro drivers which let's be honest is quite some accomplishment & perhaps supports McL's Marketing tag line of the 570S being a game changer.
Going to try to encourage my local OPC to book me onto the Porsche Experience at Silverstone ahead of ordering as i feel i need to see/drive the Turbo S closer to it's limits in the same way the 570S presented itself today. My hope when i left for Millbrook this morning was that my decision would be made & a Turbo S order would be being completed in the next few days but sadly for somewhat unexpected reasons i'm more undecided now that i was this morning.
9e 28 said:
Yellow turbo looks amazing and if its one car for everything unbeatable ^^^^
I'm still struggling with why the 2wd Lambo doesn't get a look in if R8 gets a shot. Old school N/A V10. Lambo looks with 2wd handling dynamics. The R8 really is its ugly twin sister. Looks like an Audi TT thats been bashed flat and then a go faster spoiler which looks completely out of place thrown on the back for good measure to add to the ugliness. I'm not sold on the Macca either I'm afraid purely on styling - the Macca design language doesn't work for me at all although I love their tech. Not that its relevant I'd be very surprised if 570 quicker than a 675 LT around a track. Sounds like sales BS tbh but you never know maybe there's something special about version 2 of the CF tub which improves handling even further - still can't see how it make up for a 100bhp deficit around Sepang?
Just look at the entry level baby lambo - looks great on its smaller wheels and chunky tyres imo
I still predict you will go 911 turbo S - an astonishingly good piece of kit - forget Sapphire go PTS (Gulf Blue)
It will be my 1 car but have the wife's for sensible family duties. Agreed the R8 looks prettier but that comes at a price. If the R8 & Lamborghini were the same like for like cost then perhaps but they're not & if going RWD raw at this price point I feel the 570S would be unbeatable.I'm still struggling with why the 2wd Lambo doesn't get a look in if R8 gets a shot. Old school N/A V10. Lambo looks with 2wd handling dynamics. The R8 really is its ugly twin sister. Looks like an Audi TT thats been bashed flat and then a go faster spoiler which looks completely out of place thrown on the back for good measure to add to the ugliness. I'm not sold on the Macca either I'm afraid purely on styling - the Macca design language doesn't work for me at all although I love their tech. Not that its relevant I'd be very surprised if 570 quicker than a 675 LT around a track. Sounds like sales BS tbh but you never know maybe there's something special about version 2 of the CF tub which improves handling even further - still can't see how it make up for a 100bhp deficit around Sepang?
Just look at the entry level baby lambo - looks great on its smaller wheels and chunky tyres imo
I still predict you will go 911 turbo S - an astonishingly good piece of kit - forget Sapphire go PTS (Gulf Blue)
Agreed the 570S vs 675LT tale may have been a little tall, but it was a freelance pro driver that told me, not a dealer. Perhaps Sepang is better suited to the smaller/lighter 570S but he said the 675 would as expected pull away a little on the straights, but under braking & cornering speeds the 570S was ahead & lapped quicker. McL state the 570S is 140kg lighter tha its rivals which I guess is the Turbo S.
I'm too tight to pay over £3k for a colour not available on the stock palette. If I was going PTS it would be Voodoo Blue but Sapphire's pleasant enough & keeps the car in budget.
pete.g said:
Unless they send you out on the main circuit you won't get a Turbo S within a lion's roar of its limits at the PEC.
That's good to know. I'm getting conflicting stories as to what's possible at the PEC, but if it is nannied on one of the tiny inner tracks then unlikely to offer me much feedback that I didn't get on the 2 day test drive. I don't think they use or have access to the main circuit though but when I did the Audi Driving Experience a few years back you certainly got,to push the cars hard.Sustenpass said:
Sound like the R8 stirred senses because of the NA power plant?
I can't remember why, but I think the Ferrari FF was ruled out in the original thread. Perhaps because a new one was beyond budget?
I still feel like a lightly used FF would be strong contender in this mix; there will be plenty of opportunity to buy high-power turbo cars in the years to come, but a massive NA V12 is something to savour while we still can.
Chris Harris had a great time with his:
http://youtu.be/hWB6vTboO5I
I think they look lovely too, menacing and reasonably understated for a modern Ferrari.
The new 911 Turbo looks a bit over-styled and fussy to my eyes.
Fabulous 'dilemma' all the same...
I did have a little look at the FF but i decided I'm really not a Ferrari type of guy unless I was able to afford a new 458/488 & I had a stable of available cars. I kind of get the FF & no doubting it's good, but the running costs could be crippling compared to the other cars I'm looking at.I can't remember why, but I think the Ferrari FF was ruled out in the original thread. Perhaps because a new one was beyond budget?
I still feel like a lightly used FF would be strong contender in this mix; there will be plenty of opportunity to buy high-power turbo cars in the years to come, but a massive NA V12 is something to savour while we still can.
Chris Harris had a great time with his:
http://youtu.be/hWB6vTboO5I
I think they look lovely too, menacing and reasonably understated for a modern Ferrari.
The new 911 Turbo looks a bit over-styled and fussy to my eyes.
Fabulous 'dilemma' all the same...
Edited by Sustenpass on Thursday 14th April 04:48
Porsche911R said:
get a NA lump while you still can imo.. to say only 30% sports car is not quite right if you give the 570 70% !!!
The engine & respective sound was the R8's tour de force but the cabin was very Audi (not always a bad thing but not as good for a Sports car). The focus in the 570S was all around the driver which neither the Porsche nor Audi are able to match. All 3 are epic cars but the McL felt to me the by far more focussed Sports/Super car.Also don't forget that the 570S engine is basically a detuned 650/675 engine & at its core the same as the P1 but without the electric motor aspects.
ChrisH370 said:
I cant agree that the 570S focus is all around the driver when it comes to the low resolution displays, knobs for the Suspension and Engine settings, all very plasticky v's the new R8 cabin with high res. Virtual Cockpit display and MMI control and much nicer seats and trim, all far better quality, IMO.
I haven't driven one so cant comment further on the sports car like qualities, the reviews are positive.
Do you have a wide enough garage to open those doors, they said 50cm either side is all that's required!
You are looking for a long commute car as well as a sports (track) car aren't you?
I was refering to driver focus. On track or on a spirited drive, the gadgets really don't have a big part to play, however on a commute or more mundane drive they would. At the Millbrook event I didn't once interact with the IRIS system as that wasn't required. The driving position, the way the wheel felt in my hands as well as the paddles, the position of the pedals & the low seating position all offer a true sports car feel. The R8 & 991 compromise by offering less focus but more toys & luxury.I haven't driven one so cant comment further on the sports car like qualities, the reviews are positive.
Do you have a wide enough garage to open those doors, they said 50cm either side is all that's required!
You are looking for a long commute car as well as a sports (track) car aren't you?
Correct, I need a car that can manage a fortnightly very long commute & the McL could perhaps become tiresome during that task.
TKH said:
Hi Paul
hope we get out on a run soon - anyway
991 Turbo S - it is then
all year round usability copes well with rain,snow, mud and wet leaves
more luggage space 2 flight cases in boot + back seats for more if only 2 of you
more passenger space - seats are ok for shorties 5.8 or less
0-100 = 6 ish
unreal launch mode
not massively mileage sensitive
servicing relatively good value
Litchfield mapping to make it more bonkers
yes its design is not as dramatic as 570 or R8 but that can be an advantage if using daily
given its pissed down from October until errr yesterday or 6 months and you want to use daily 991 makes sense but a 991 is more a head over heart and i get that.
all 3 are great cars but each has its 'forte'
whatever you choose it will need some SCD exercise
Regards
Tim
Likewise, need some cross country hooliganism (in a nice way).hope we get out on a run soon - anyway
991 Turbo S - it is then
all year round usability copes well with rain,snow, mud and wet leaves
more luggage space 2 flight cases in boot + back seats for more if only 2 of you
more passenger space - seats are ok for shorties 5.8 or less
0-100 = 6 ish
unreal launch mode
not massively mileage sensitive
servicing relatively good value
Litchfield mapping to make it more bonkers
yes its design is not as dramatic as 570 or R8 but that can be an advantage if using daily
given its pissed down from October until errr yesterday or 6 months and you want to use daily 991 makes sense but a 991 is more a head over heart and i get that.
all 3 are great cars but each has its 'forte'
whatever you choose it will need some SCD exercise
Regards
Tim
All fully valid points & make perfect sense. Is a tough decision as the virtues of all 3 are very different but all are exceptional performers, however daily use is a key factor & as you say of the 3 the Turbo S kind of stands out.
Zanderman said:
I am in a similar (ish) situation. I currently have a 991 C2S and love it but I would like something a little more 'special'. I am looking at 991 TurboS, McLaren 12C and a Ferrari California. A this point I have no idea what I will do but I will go and spend some time in each and see what feels like the right thing to do.
In the end I think a purchase of this nature needs to driven by what the heart wants, if you try and over think it and do the 'sensible' thing you will end up being dissapointed in some way (dissapointed being a relative term of course!) and they are all expensive mistakes to make. I have read your thread in the McLaren section and it strikes me you already know what you really want to do.
What's become clear is at this price point I'm finding it harder to commit. McL is the closest to a Supercar & it looks stunning, but as a daily driver I'm really not sure it could cope & £600 check ups every time I track it is a bit rich. The R8 sounded sublime but again although lower running costs could it offer up the overall experience of the Porsche?In the end I think a purchase of this nature needs to driven by what the heart wants, if you try and over think it and do the 'sensible' thing you will end up being dissapointed in some way (dissapointed being a relative term of course!) and they are all expensive mistakes to make. I have read your thread in the McLaren section and it strikes me you already know what you really want to do.
Bottom line is I'm close to choosing the Turbo S but still hesitant as the other 2 were also epic at what they did.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Simply the fit & finish of the Porsche was considerably better than the McL. Panel gaps & ill fitting plastic trim were noticeable, not bad but not great. The IRIS system isn't anywhere near as good as the new PCM & the standard music system is a 4 speaker setup. These are not bad points but could lessen the enjoyment of a 250mile commute on the M6/A14 fortnightly. The £600 track day tax also doesn't offer up confidence in the product being as strong as one would like.These are just small things that together could quickly remove the initial ownership glow.
Tony 1234 said:
Plus the servicing and yearly warranty costs at 4 years old, a Turbo S is a fraction of the running cost of a 570S IMO
To be honest it's unlikely i'd be keeping this car out of warranty so wouldn't be an issue, however you're correct that the servicing costs for the 570S are somewhat higher than the Turbo S as a simple 1st service (fluids only) is £1500 so i'd hate to think what a main service would cost. Also the nearest dealer to me is 50 miles away so somewhat of a ball ache for transport & more so if it needs to go in 8-10 times a year for this Tack day pre & post service.Was close to a decision on the 570S being the choice for me but in the cold light of day & with some consideration of a sensible nature it's now in 3rd place. Bottom line is this wouldn't be a 3rd car, it would be my daily driver & i really don't think the 570S is as well suited to that job as i'd hoped. Weekend hooliganism & track days it excels but regular long commutes & usage around 15k miles per annum perhaps not.
s2000db said:
Wise decision, I drove a 570S very recently, and while it would make a great track toy (why not buy a track car though??).
It was woefully short of refinement and everyday comfort items to make it a daily driver.. On top of that, the brakes are very wooden feeling with no modulation. Wouldn't swap my Turbo S for it if 95% of your driving is road based.. Unless you crave the attention of course ... Lol
That's my thinking. It was woefully short of refinement and everyday comfort items to make it a daily driver.. On top of that, the brakes are very wooden feeling with no modulation. Wouldn't swap my Turbo S for it if 95% of your driving is road based.. Unless you crave the attention of course ... Lol
As a slight aside, we bought a track snotter last week (Clio 172 Cup Sport) for what appears to be a bargain, so for the odd UK event we'll use & abuse that. For the more prestigious circuits (see longer tracks) & our annual European track hoon i'd use the (whatever i decide) Sports Car.
OldBob said:
W8 - hope this helps you to decide
Signed off for wrap yesterday, pick up Sat
and go for Carbon Bucket seats
Makes Kim Kardashian look normal.
That looks stunning. What colour is that, is it the standard Yellow paint option? What colour wrap are you having?
I'd choose the 18way (might be 14 way) Sports Plus seats as i'll have a few long commutes so the comfort is important & the Sports + seats are both comfortable & very grippy when pushing on. Any other options on that car?
Signed off for wrap yesterday, pick up Sat
and go for Carbon Bucket seats
Makes Kim Kardashian look normal.
That looks stunning. What colour is that, is it the standard Yellow paint option? What colour wrap are you having?
I'd choose the 18way (might be 14 way) Sports Plus seats as i'll have a few long commutes so the comfort is important & the Sports + seats are both comfortable & very grippy when pushing on. Any other options on that car?
Edited by OldBob on Thursday 21st April 12:55
Edited by OldBob on Thursday 21st April 13:00
ChrisH370 said:
Well W8, that's a a turnaround after your Millbrook 570S test drive where you seemed convinced apart from the long commute aspect.
Quick and capable that the McLaren is, the ownership propersition and quality for a road car is nothing like Porsche.
When will you be ordering?
That's the thing Chris. When I took it foe a test drive with the dealer a couple of months ago it didn't float my boat other than the stunning looks. At Millbrook it was epic but that's not the kind of driving i'd be doing 75% of the time. Also noticed the build quality on them wasn't as one would hope from such a high value car. Panel gaps were evident & the trim external & internal were out of line on a few cars. Also the interior is Spartan so would need a spec to lift it & that pushes the price up very quickly. Turbo S I can spec with just £1200 worth of options & have everything i'd need, however the V10+ would require over £10k in options so this starts to paint a picture of the Porsche being the best overall choice.Quick and capable that the McLaren is, the ownership propersition and quality for a road car is nothing like Porsche.
When will you be ordering?
OldBob said:
"What colour is that, is it the standard Yellow paint option?"
Yep
"What colour wrap are you having?"
Clear Xpel - fitted at and by the Porsche dealer. Full front, sills and rear haunches.
"Any other options on that car?"
Sports design mirrors - with gloss black lowers
Gloss Black: Intakes, washer nipples
Black surrounded LED headlights
Leather on dash and console - no Carbon bits interior other than Sports Bucket Seats
Model deletion and "Porsche" in Gloss Black
Tinted side and rear glass
Smoking pack (covered 12V socket in console
Headrest crests
Footwell Net
Yellow belts
Wheel colour is now gloss black inner as std (used to be grey)
All up only 2,200 of options.
Other than the gloss black painted bits & crests, i've followed pretty much the same spec but with Speed Limit display, Homelink & the Heated Wheel (as that adds the Multifunction aspect), also selected heated seats as they an FOC option & floor mats.Yep
"What colour wrap are you having?"
Clear Xpel - fitted at and by the Porsche dealer. Full front, sills and rear haunches.
"Any other options on that car?"
Sports design mirrors - with gloss black lowers
Gloss Black: Intakes, washer nipples
Black surrounded LED headlights
Leather on dash and console - no Carbon bits interior other than Sports Bucket Seats
Model deletion and "Porsche" in Gloss Black
Tinted side and rear glass
Smoking pack (covered 12V socket in console
Headrest crests
Footwell Net
Yellow belts
Wheel colour is now gloss black inner as std (used to be grey)
All up only 2,200 of options.
Phooey said:
Great vid but a little unfair on the R8 & Turbo S as only the Lambo was on track rubber. I'd be pretty confident that with the same tyres or at least a similar compound the Audi & Porsche would have been as quick as the Lambo if not quicker. Was it only me that thought the Lambo lap looked the most untidy?AndrewD said:
As I posted elsewhere I decided on a gen 2 R8 V10 Plus rather than a 991.2 Turbo S, as much as I like Porsches.
The R8 is a fantastic daily driver. Relatively discrete but every journey becomes a bit more special. It makes a much much better noise than the Turbo, dare I say it the Turbo would get a bit boring after a while. Will probably get a Turbo at some point though.
Is a stunning car & the colour i'd have chosen.The R8 is a fantastic daily driver. Relatively discrete but every journey becomes a bit more special. It makes a much much better noise than the Turbo, dare I say it the Turbo would get a bit boring after a while. Will probably get a Turbo at some point though.
NickOrangeCars said:
The 570S is a wonderful car but that story is completely wrong, on the McLaren Forum (on FB) we have members who have P1's, P1 GTR's and probably about 10 675LT's and some are serious pro-drivers - and most of them have driven the 570S - and yes it's good but outright performance is still slower than 650 + 675, it doesn't have a) the power b) or the traction - its 70+BHP down on the 675 and doesn't have anywhere near the Aero.
The 675 is lapping most tracks multiple seconds faster than the GT3 RS (and I have seen multiple videos to prove)
That all said - for 570S has much more usable power on the road, 650/675 are not possibly to use even at 80% of potential on the road, the 570 was designed with less rubber and a setup that lets you have fun on the road.
I've no doubt that may/could be the case & as stated was only referencing a Pro driver who'd driven them both extensively at Sepang. Perhaps he couldn't get on with the 675 but i went out with him in a 570S & he certainly appeared to know how to drive that & in his words he said other drivers at Sepang came to the same conclusion. I did of course take it with a pinch of salt & although he was freelance, i was attending a 570S event so he was hardly likely to say they're cr@p.The 675 is lapping most tracks multiple seconds faster than the GT3 RS (and I have seen multiple videos to prove)
That all said - for 570S has much more usable power on the road, 650/675 are not possibly to use even at 80% of potential on the road, the 570 was designed with less rubber and a setup that lets you have fun on the road.
Anyhow, i guess this topic can now close as i'm no longer undecided & placed my order today for:
Porsche 991 Gen 2 Turbo S
Sapphire Blue with Black interior (may change this to Agate Grey)
Is currently an 11mth lead time so delivery expected March 1st 17.
Options are as follows but went at it with tight fists.
LED main headlights in black including PDSL+
Privacy Glass rear & rear side windows
Speed Limit Display
HomeLink
Heated Multifunction steering wheel
Adaptive Sports Seats Plus (18-way electric)
Seat Heating
Smoking Package (gives you a cover over a small storage cubby hole & an extra 12v outlet)
Floor Mats
Passenger footwell storage net
That's it. Was tempted by other options but the standard car is extremely well spec'd.
Porsche 991 Gen 2 Turbo S
Sapphire Blue with Black interior (may change this to Agate Grey)
Is currently an 11mth lead time so delivery expected March 1st 17.
Options are as follows but went at it with tight fists.
LED main headlights in black including PDSL+
Privacy Glass rear & rear side windows
Speed Limit Display
HomeLink
Heated Multifunction steering wheel
Adaptive Sports Seats Plus (18-way electric)
Seat Heating
Smoking Package (gives you a cover over a small storage cubby hole & an extra 12v outlet)
Floor Mats
Passenger footwell storage net
That's it. Was tempted by other options but the standard car is extremely well spec'd.
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