996 C4S purchase

[Phil-68]

Hi all,
This is my first post, sort of! (I used to be on here a few years back but hadn't been on here for a while so have lost my log in details).

After having been without a Porsche for a couple of years due to serious illness, we are now in the market for a 996 C4S. I've been looking online mainly, but will start going to look at cars as they become available. I have actually seen one for sale at a small garage in Birmingham, but I didn't get a good "vibe" from the place. I'm thinking of going via one of the many Porsche Independent specialists. There is one car that looks interesting to us, but it's about 130 miles away. Now I certainly don't mind travelling, but after asking the dealer some questions, I'm a little put off by the fact that it's had 8 owners. It's a MY 2002. Should this concern me? It has full history, decent mileage and is in great condition apparently, but being the 9th owner doesn't sit comfortably with me. I'm not in a great rush to get one, but I'm also wondering how often they come on the market (I haven't been monitoring this as we've only just decided to go for the 996 - we were going to go for a 997 on a PCP from an OPC, but the deals are poor).

I'm trying to compile a list of reputable dealers to contact, I'm not fussed about location as I will happily travel if needed. I'm in the Midlands so nowhere is going to be a ridiculous distance!

I have some other questions regarding the vehicle itself if that's ok.
I am not sure about manual or tiptronic. Our Cayman had PDK which was fantastic, but I don't mind manual cars and I'm also thinking ahead a little regarding resale. I guess if the perfect C4S becomes available and it ticks all our boxes, but was tiptronic, I'd probably go for it, but I just wanted to get some opinion on this.

Colour I am sure about, it has to be silver or grey with black interior. Optional extras - again I'm not sure, but I appreciate I'm just going to have to go with whatever it has, when I find a suitable vehicle. (Condition, mileage, history are more important). However, are there any "must haves" on a car like this? I would prefer heated seats, park assist and sports exhaust, but I realise I may not get any of those.

The couple of salesmen I have spoken to so far have all been very dismissive of the IMS and other engine issues, and were keen to tell me that 996 C4S values are increasing rapidly!?

Thanks for reading and sorry for a long first post, but I just wanted to get a bit of advice and opinion off fellow enthusiasts.

Phil

[Phil-68]

Thanks for the reply INWB.

Interesting what you say about people not keen to sell them, never thought of that. One dealer I spoke to today said they get them in all the time, but I'm not so sure. Had to laugh about your comment about the Bose!! When we were discussing whether to travel to London to look at the car I mentioned, my wife said she liked that it'd got Bose, but I'm not as keen. I'd rather listen to the engine. If I could choose my options I'd have a sports exhaust first, but then again I've never heard a 996 so maybe it's good enough without it? We hired a 997 S Gen 2 a few years ago for a weekend (that's what converted us to the brand) and that sounded awesome, a lot better than our Cayman.

I would love to take you up on your offer to have a look, (and hopefully a listen!) to your car if that's still ok. That is very kind of you. I was thinking of going along to some club evenings, and I'm definitely going to Porsches on the Prom. Looking forward to actually seeing some in the flesh, without salesman hassle!

Our budget is approx £25,000, so you were spot on.

I'm in Tamworth, so not too far away.

[Phil-68]

Thanks Lord....,

I've not seen a Seal Grey one yet but I've always liked that colour. I think if I go and look at one in that colour I'll be forgetting silver ones!

I've been googling exhausts incase I can't get one with PSE, and there seem to be a few options, so it's not imperative to get one with it on.

Is it still necessary to get an inspection done if buying from one of the bigger independents, as they do a load of checks and provide a warranty?

IMS - I can't live with that uncertainty so I'll either buy one with it done or get it done straight away after purchase. We intend to keep this car for a long time so it makes sense.

Thanks, Phil

[Phil-68]

Will do, it won't let me just yet though as I'm a "new" member and it won't let me email/PM for the first 24 hours!?
I've got a feeling I'm going to be looking for one with a sports exhaust now!!

[Phil-68]

griffter said:

The salesmen played down the known issues and emphasised the increasing value. That doesn't surprise me. Read up on the ims issue. There are no definitive answers but there is a school of thought that leaving well enough alone after 10-15 years is a viable option. Also beware that ims isn't the only potent problem on the 3.6.

But on to brighter things, you have a good idea of what you want and are realistic about the need to compromise on options so I'm sure you'll find plenty to look at. I was very spec specific ( I didn't want a C4S) and ended up with seal grey with a sports exhaust. Aftermarket options are available if that's your thing, but the pse does it well.

Good luck.

Thanks Grifter.

[Phil-68]

Shaoxter said:

If you like PDK you probably won't like Tiptronic...

I wouldn't bother with a PSE unless it's had a new one fitted recently. A 14 year old stock PSE will most likely be splitting at the seams or the vacuum pipes seized or both. I got a Carnewal GT exhaust for 1k euros fitted including all new clamps and bolts (had to drive to Belgium but made a trip of it). There are also stainless steel options and Gundo hack as mentioned.

Here's a vid of my exhaust noise (around 1:35 and 3:45)
https://youtu.be/-swIeiZKZO4

If the car you're interested in is at a well known specialist in Mill Hill then I'd be happy to have a nose around for you as I'm only 10-15 mins away...

Interesting! thanks for that. I see your point about an old exhaust.

just watched your video. All i can say is WOW . Seriously, that sounds awesome. Where was that filmed? I'll be off to Belgium me thinks! (Travelling doesn't bother me, I cycled to Belgium and then on to Switzerland last year, but that's another story, so I can easily manage it in a 911).


I think you're right about Tiptronic, I'll find it a bit lethargic after the PDK. Wife's company car is a 5 Series touring and that's got an 8 speed auto which is fantastic, so going back to a 5 speed auto would feel a bit strange. Think I'll stick (pun not intended!!) to manual.

The car we were interested in was near Guildford, but thank you so much for your very kind offer.

[Phil-68]

Shaoxter said:

At the Nurburgring

Here's another vid from inside the car. The great thing about the exhaust is that it doesn't drone, it only gets loud on high load and/or high revs so it's as good as a switchable PSE IMO.

You can also kind of see how the Tip gearbox behaves if you watch the gear lights on the instrument cluster, I was changing gear manually with the buttons.
https://youtu.be/BYak4S2JakY

Excellent stuff! Sounds great. I like your interior colour, and the seat backs look ace, are they standard?

[Phil-68]

Thanks for the info.

I've looked at a couple of cars and they haven't been great to be honest, they were both non-specialist garages and both had 3+ years gaps in between services, as well as other questionable issues.

I'm off to look at a Private sale later. If I like the car, what is the best way forward with a private purchase? Is it customary to leave a small deposit "subject to satisfactory inspection"? If so, what sort of deposit would suffice and would I get this back if the inspection brings up a lot of issues?

Thanks, Phil

[Phil-68]

INWB said:

I ...Not sure where you are in the midlands but if you want to come and take a look at mine as a benchmark feel free. I'm just north of Leicester.

Great to meet you and your nice car today, has definitely made our minds up....we want a C4S manual! (We went to look at a 997.1 afterwards but it was well dodgy!)
Thanks again

[Phil-68]

Fl0pp3r said:

I would recommend buying from specialist Indy's such as Paragon, RPM Technik, JZM or 911V as this will minimise your risk of encountering issues with the car. But if you do go private, ensure you get it inspected by a reputable body such as Peter Morgan or your nearest Indy as this will give you peace of mind and potentially save you a bundle if the engine exhibits signs of bore scoring or imminent IMS bearing failure - real but manageable risks on the M96 engine.

I wouldn't sweat the number of owners overly - Porsches are quite often owned by people as an aspirational thing and they may not be in a position to fund lomgterm, so ownership can be quite naturally short. 8 owners in 13 yrs (2002 model you quote) is not unusual imho.

I would defo want a manual over a tip if I were looking for the best C4S i could find, both for engagement and future value.

As far as colours go, whatever floats your boat! But do avoid the more dubious interior colours you may encounter - these will make future resale a nightmare!!

Best of luck with your search mate!

Thanks!

We've not gone for the car we viewed as a private sale. Without going into any detail, to be fair to the seller who was a top bloke and has it advertised on here, it wasn't the one for us.

We are actually getting very frustrated with the whole thing now. We've seen a few dodgy cars (the private sale not one of them I must add).

I haven't actually viewed one at a Porsche Specialist yet, so I'm hoping when we do go to see the car we have our eye on, it will be a good one.

I asked the dealer some questions, which they have replied to. I also asked about bore scoring and whether they would check for this before purchase. This was the reply I got back....

The bore scoring isn’t an issue on the 996 C4S, it’s something we have only heard of on 997 3.8 engines specifically 2005-2008 models so I’m not sure where the scoring question comes from.



Now I'm no expert, but I reckon a lot of you lot are!! So was I wrong to ask them this, and are they right? Seems a little disrespectful saying "not sure where the scoring question comes from" to me, if as I am led to believe the C4S is susceptible to bore scoring???

[Phil-68]

Thanks. Although it mainly talks about the 997, the 996 does get mentioned.

I'm not overly worried about it though, just a bit annoyed that they could be so dismissive.

Peter Morgan has some interesting reading on his Q&A section of his website too.

[Phil-68]

Diablos-666 said:

Here's another link

http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=66500

I think you're right to be concerned and at least ask the question. Good luck.

Thanks again, I don't feel so silly questioning it now!

[Phil-68]

Budflicker said:

Hi Phil,

Although the 3.8 S engine in the 997 is much more prone to bore scoring it does still happen on the 996 although much less frequently I'm told which I understand is the same for the non S 3.6 Carrea 997 which has pretty much the same block as the 996.

Have you spoken to Tom at 911V yet? I recently bought mine from there which was in my diary of a C4S owner thread and the service from Them was fantastic.

Stick with the search, they are a great car and well worth the effort finding a good one, that being said I got lucky spotting mine within 5 minutes of the ad going on pistonheads.

Yes I've emailed 911V and they are keeping a look out for me.

We had a bit of a wobble yesterday and had second thoughts about the whole purchase, but I think we just need to find a good one....

Or maybe just order a new 718 Boxster which we've just been to see unveiled at Wolverhampton's new OPC!!

[Phil-68]

Urban said:

Hi Phil-68. We are thinking of selling our 59k mile 2002 996 C4S manual, black with cream leather.
Don't want to upset forum rules but you can pm me
Nick

Edited by Urban on Monday 25th April 22:23

Thanks Nick,
We prefer silver or grey but I'll give you a shout if we can't find anything.

Phil

[Phil-68]

Budflicker said:

That's budget creep at its very best....

Only joking!!! Couldn't handle all that depreciation for a start!

[Phil-68]

ARTiSAN1066 said:

I've been lucky to have had several Porsche's in the past and decided it was time for another 911. Initially I was looking for a 996 C4S as I've always loved the shape and suspect it'll def be a classic ... especially as the prices are rising fast. Having not purchased a Porsche for a while I can't believe the approach adopted by many dealers. Due to the well documented IMS and bore scoring issues I decided to go for a 996 Turbo instead. However this then raises the over rev issue.

Having looked at various cars there's a lot of 'unsuitable' cars out there promising to be the holy grail so I wish you luck in your search but can understand why its a battle to find the right car. I suspect owners are hanging onto the good 996 C4S/Turbo's and watching the prices rise. Its tempting to give up the search and get a buy to let property ... although it wouldn't be so much fun as another 911. Good luck .....

Our main reason for getting one is to enjoy it, and enjoy driving it. Never had a minimal or non depreciating car before so that'd just be a very nice bonus, but I'm certainly not going to restrict its use to protect future value!

We are pretty handy at DIY having just fitted a new kitchen ourselves, so property developing is something we could do and have in fact seriously considered, but as you say, it's nowhere near as much fun!

[Phil-68]

Update on our search for a C4S -

Drove a 5 1/2 hour round trip yesterday....

On arrival we discovered that the front bumper, both doors, rear wings and rear bumper, together with the cills had all been resprayed. We were a little concerned but not overly until we noticed (after our test drive and as we were just contemplating purchasing it) that the passenger side wasn't done very well at all, you could see an unevenness in it, a sort of ripple effect, and a lack of deep shine. Also, all 4 alloys were not in a good state, although to be fair they did say they'd sort these. The interior was in excellent condition though and it drove nice. Originally we had been a little put off by the fact it had had 8 previous owners, but we thought that if it was spot on in every other way it could be the one. We did love the overall look of it though and my wife was a lot happier with the C4S after driving it, however we couldn't really be comfortable with the poor respray job. Do you think we are being too fussy, or are there any C4S's out there still that haven't had nearly all the bodywork resprayed?

We are quite down about it all once again. If we aren't going to be able to find a decent one then we'll have to think about something else, or nothing at all. Having had new or nearly new cars for the last few years, it's difficult trying to buy an old one. Maybe one will turn up that will change our minds, but I'm not that confident.

Edited by Phil-68 on Thursday 28th April 14:31

[Phil-68]

Shaoxter said:

....Just remember to ask all the questions before taking a 5.5 hour round trip, otherwise it will be quite disheartening having investing all that time. Only go and view the ones that tick all your boxes and which you actually intend to buy, not just viewing cars for the sake of it...

We did!!!

I had numerous email conversations with them prior to the viewing, and I also called them. They assured me that the car was "spot on" other than 1 or 2 stone chips on the front. They told me the front bumper had been done but that was not a problem. We went with the definite intention of purchasing the car. I went to work at 0300 yesterday and drove 2 and a half hours there when I finished work, and my wife had a day off work to come with me, that's how confident we were that this could be the one. We were excited on the journey there, but now we're very despondent.

[Phil-68]

harleywilma said:

est to try and find one with low owners
and except a car with some stone chips but as original paint as possible,It will be a huge task as these things are stone chip magnets and thats why so many are painted and not unusual to see many front bumpers resprayed,It is possible and I would rather see original patina of age and originality than a fluffed up car.Good luck mate..

Yep, agree with that, cheers

[Phil-68]

Budflicker said:

Hang in there, there are good ones out there; here are some pics of mine to keep your interest up.

Wow, that looks beautiful. Is that at 911 Virgin's premises? And was that how they'd got it ready for viewing/sale?