R - first drive
Discussion
Just drove the R at Silverstone PEC. Wow oh wow. It's everything and more that I'd hoped. And that is also in spite of the fact that I had extremely high hopes. How can you not amongst all the hype and fervour of such a car.
Putting to one side the supply and finances, it's really just a very special car. A very special 911. To me it felt like a hybrid of old and new. For starters it's got a wonderful driving position as per all 997 and 991 that I have driven. You sit low and have good adjustment. The steering wheel can be nicely adjusted to right where it needs to be. I did have it maxed out both in reach and vertical though, but it was perfect for me. So it was nice and close to me and up against the dash/column with no further scope. You can still see the dials clearly though and have good visibility out over the wheel too. The pedals are absolutely spot on for heel and toe. You might as well remove the fuse for the sport button and the Rev match feature, they are that good. Some recent Porsches have had a very firm brake pedal that sits too high relative to the throttle, making it awkward to heel and toe in normal driving conditions. This was never an issue under hard driving as you could use sufficient brake pressure to mitigate the slight misplacement of the pedals. But in the R, it's not an issue at all and heel and toe was totally intuitive from the off, at all speeds.
This car had the low mass flywheel. It's just like the 997s not surprisingly. It's less noisy and chuntery though than a 3.8 RS or 4.0 RS. It's not something that I would have paid too much attention to had the instructor not pointed it out, it just felt and sounded like the old cars. The gearbox felt really stiff and notchty when we were sat in the paddock chatting. But on the move it comes alive. I've read reviews that it's not as sweet as the Caymans, I would disagree. At speed it felt wonderful and you just slotted through the gears. It also seemed to have a slightly shorter throw, but marginally more mechanical. If that's the manual for the next GT3 then we don't have any worries there.
I didn't drive it for very long to be honest as there is only so much to discover with an instructor sat next to you. I always like to be on my own with a new car at first, but Porsche owned that one so its their rules! Still I probably did 15 laps of their two circuits and although I didn't really know where I was going I knew it enough to press on a bit and get a feel for the balance. Compared to the latest RS' etc you're just aware of the lack of grip - but in such a great way. It's obviously softer and it feels more fluid on the move. There's a nice compliance to the car. But it also has this 458 trait of feeling like its up on its tippy toes. That car is sublime to drive from a handling perspective. Just so much fun. This is the same - it wants to change direction. We had a little bit of drizzle on our run and I was aware of the fact that I could feel the front tyres sliding and the rear wanting to slide to. This was even before the track got damp. It felt really alive. But feeling the fronts slide and scrabble for grip was pretty special as I can't remember having that so clearly telegraphed back to me through the steering wheel of a modern car. Does it even have the electric rack? If it does they've cracked it. People harp on and on about feel, you can sound like a bigot but then you remember it's nice when you've got some, I must say. For me in a car like that with so much feel, it just urges me on to drive faster and faster. Always a good time to park up someone else's brand new car that's on the first day of extended demo work - especially as it was drizzling. That said it speaks volumes that even in the damp (ish) you just have bags of confidence thanks to the feedback you get. You just want to start edging up to the limit even after a lap or two. And over it for that matter. That's the difference with the 991 RS. The R feels smaller and more wieldy. It feels like a 90s car by comparison, in terms of weight and size. Apart from the ridiculous amount of poke it's got anyway. It sort of shrinks about you like the old cars. The 991 RS does feel a big car, especially so after having driven the R. It just feels like a big car for a 911 full stop. But driving the RS at Combe a week or two ago, I can say I loved it but for different reasons. I was blown away by its performance for a road car. The grip, the speed. But it felt big and it felt like I wanted to drive it somewhere with more run off to get to know its limits. I know it's got a great balance and is very friendly on the limit but the speeds are huge and so is the grip level, so I would say it takes more time to get used to. The R the limits are lower and you're at the limit more easily, that's what we want for road cars. But because it also feels smaller and lighter it's like a Caterham by comparison, where as the RS is like a race car. So the R is rewarding all the time whereas with the RS it's very rewarding but with less opportunity to access it's greatness. I guess it's the mechanical grip of the R playing out over the aero dominant grip of the RS. I've always doubted the levels of aero on the RS but the R feels so different it must have a big impact on the feel of the car. As I say the front and the rear want to slide, goading you on and just making you want to immerse yourself in the driving moment. With the RS you just go as fast as you can and on the standard set up you run out of front end first. In the high speed it just wants to understeer. But the limits are so high on the RS that it can feel a bit dull - on the road anyway, you also have to be going much quicker and harder to get to the point where it's involving. And that is the beauty of the R, even at parking speeds I was happy in it. God it felt good to be really driving something, that was built to be driven. Tell you what, we are lucky with this Preuninger bloke, he really gets it. These cars are really where it's at in this era. I can't think of another car I would want over an R. I will keep the RS but it has made it slightly redundant. The R might be slower on track but it'd be more fun and even more adjustable/entertaining. It could then also take you back to town or to a meeting in real comfort without you needing to feel like a berk. I love my RS but I do feel silly in it sometimes, until I'm flat out anyway. So balls to it, I'm keeping them both. According to the other forums the RS is depreciating like a used condom anyway.
L
Putting to one side the supply and finances, it's really just a very special car. A very special 911. To me it felt like a hybrid of old and new. For starters it's got a wonderful driving position as per all 997 and 991 that I have driven. You sit low and have good adjustment. The steering wheel can be nicely adjusted to right where it needs to be. I did have it maxed out both in reach and vertical though, but it was perfect for me. So it was nice and close to me and up against the dash/column with no further scope. You can still see the dials clearly though and have good visibility out over the wheel too. The pedals are absolutely spot on for heel and toe. You might as well remove the fuse for the sport button and the Rev match feature, they are that good. Some recent Porsches have had a very firm brake pedal that sits too high relative to the throttle, making it awkward to heel and toe in normal driving conditions. This was never an issue under hard driving as you could use sufficient brake pressure to mitigate the slight misplacement of the pedals. But in the R, it's not an issue at all and heel and toe was totally intuitive from the off, at all speeds.
This car had the low mass flywheel. It's just like the 997s not surprisingly. It's less noisy and chuntery though than a 3.8 RS or 4.0 RS. It's not something that I would have paid too much attention to had the instructor not pointed it out, it just felt and sounded like the old cars. The gearbox felt really stiff and notchty when we were sat in the paddock chatting. But on the move it comes alive. I've read reviews that it's not as sweet as the Caymans, I would disagree. At speed it felt wonderful and you just slotted through the gears. It also seemed to have a slightly shorter throw, but marginally more mechanical. If that's the manual for the next GT3 then we don't have any worries there.
I didn't drive it for very long to be honest as there is only so much to discover with an instructor sat next to you. I always like to be on my own with a new car at first, but Porsche owned that one so its their rules! Still I probably did 15 laps of their two circuits and although I didn't really know where I was going I knew it enough to press on a bit and get a feel for the balance. Compared to the latest RS' etc you're just aware of the lack of grip - but in such a great way. It's obviously softer and it feels more fluid on the move. There's a nice compliance to the car. But it also has this 458 trait of feeling like its up on its tippy toes. That car is sublime to drive from a handling perspective. Just so much fun. This is the same - it wants to change direction. We had a little bit of drizzle on our run and I was aware of the fact that I could feel the front tyres sliding and the rear wanting to slide to. This was even before the track got damp. It felt really alive. But feeling the fronts slide and scrabble for grip was pretty special as I can't remember having that so clearly telegraphed back to me through the steering wheel of a modern car. Does it even have the electric rack? If it does they've cracked it. People harp on and on about feel, you can sound like a bigot but then you remember it's nice when you've got some, I must say. For me in a car like that with so much feel, it just urges me on to drive faster and faster. Always a good time to park up someone else's brand new car that's on the first day of extended demo work - especially as it was drizzling. That said it speaks volumes that even in the damp (ish) you just have bags of confidence thanks to the feedback you get. You just want to start edging up to the limit even after a lap or two. And over it for that matter. That's the difference with the 991 RS. The R feels smaller and more wieldy. It feels like a 90s car by comparison, in terms of weight and size. Apart from the ridiculous amount of poke it's got anyway. It sort of shrinks about you like the old cars. The 991 RS does feel a big car, especially so after having driven the R. It just feels like a big car for a 911 full stop. But driving the RS at Combe a week or two ago, I can say I loved it but for different reasons. I was blown away by its performance for a road car. The grip, the speed. But it felt big and it felt like I wanted to drive it somewhere with more run off to get to know its limits. I know it's got a great balance and is very friendly on the limit but the speeds are huge and so is the grip level, so I would say it takes more time to get used to. The R the limits are lower and you're at the limit more easily, that's what we want for road cars. But because it also feels smaller and lighter it's like a Caterham by comparison, where as the RS is like a race car. So the R is rewarding all the time whereas with the RS it's very rewarding but with less opportunity to access it's greatness. I guess it's the mechanical grip of the R playing out over the aero dominant grip of the RS. I've always doubted the levels of aero on the RS but the R feels so different it must have a big impact on the feel of the car. As I say the front and the rear want to slide, goading you on and just making you want to immerse yourself in the driving moment. With the RS you just go as fast as you can and on the standard set up you run out of front end first. In the high speed it just wants to understeer. But the limits are so high on the RS that it can feel a bit dull - on the road anyway, you also have to be going much quicker and harder to get to the point where it's involving. And that is the beauty of the R, even at parking speeds I was happy in it. God it felt good to be really driving something, that was built to be driven. Tell you what, we are lucky with this Preuninger bloke, he really gets it. These cars are really where it's at in this era. I can't think of another car I would want over an R. I will keep the RS but it has made it slightly redundant. The R might be slower on track but it'd be more fun and even more adjustable/entertaining. It could then also take you back to town or to a meeting in real comfort without you needing to feel like a berk. I love my RS but I do feel silly in it sometimes, until I'm flat out anyway. So balls to it, I'm keeping them both. According to the other forums the RS is depreciating like a used condom anyway.
L
Edited by pistolp on Friday 15th July 17:09
Edited by pistolp on Friday 15th July 17:09
The reviews are good. But I just think road testers test so many cars that sometimes it can all sound a bit samey. Also the R has been a victim of its supply situation, some will just look upon it with cynicism and perhaps understandably. But as a car it's wonderful. It really is. I miss it already. I'm having a son in Aug and then the R arrives in Sept, I'm excited by both and it's too close to call!
Just looked at you profile v8, that's a lovely GT3. Honestly it's the same DNA, really it's splitting hairs. Any 997 GT3 is head and shoulders better than all other road cars.
Footsoldier, you really did get lucky!
Just looked at you profile v8, that's a lovely GT3. Honestly it's the same DNA, really it's splitting hairs. Any 997 GT3 is head and shoulders better than all other road cars.
Footsoldier, you really did get lucky!
Hard call that. For me and for what I want in a car, it's the R over the 4.0. It's more modest looks appeal to me, my spec is plain silver with dark anthracite wheels. It also feels even more agile and alive than the 4.0, probably the rear wheel steering. But really I'd need to drive both back to back on the same road and on the same track. However, as it stands I've never been more excited by a car that I've had coming. I genuinely can't wait to thrash the tits off it and drive it everywhere. I don't drive my 4.0 that often, maybe it just feels a bit ostentatious and also it's evidently more track focused. The subtlety and suppleness of the R is just spot on for me. I'm especially looking forward to driving the R on track. The fact that it's got less grip just means more fun. The lap on YouTube of it going round Hockenheim (I think) and it's just so much looser than the RS. Looks cracking. Constant corrections needed. Not quick, but really fun.
I am absolutely speechless that it could be compared to a GTS powerpack or 991 powerpack, whichever. I had a 991 C2S and it just left me totally cold. It had virtually zero character on the road. No Porsche GT3/RS/R car is comparable to a mainstream Porsche, other than they share the same badge. That is the whole point.
I only drove it for half an hour (the R) or so but it was enough. The steering is bloody great. I felt it had more feedback (which is the important bit of steering) than the RS and GT4. As for the 4.0 to be really sure, I would need to drive that again but I can't as it an invest.........sorry. What was I saying. No really, its really splitting hairs on the steering feel across all three or four cars. Yes it doesn't have the Metzger, which for some will mean it will always be lacking compared to those that are propelled by such an engine. But I really felt that the engine was one of its draws not one of its negatives. The gearbox is also lovely, as is the GT4's. it actually felt a little shorter in throw than the GT4. GT4 seems to have a longer plain. Neither are a bad gearbox. Nor is one less good than the other.
People will always have their views and there seem to be loads more on here who now don't like because they aren't getting one and because it is annoying that its now hypothetically at least, way too expensive. That is a shame but I do understand. On that basis I really don't like McLaren F1's and 250 SWB. Both crap cars. And too expensive.
But as for the finer points of the driving experience, it is hard to give too much weight to peoples views. Everyone sees and feels things so differently. Some people just regurgitate other peoples views and experiences. Fine, but I don't give that too much credence. Then there is ability of relative novices (including myself) to accurately articulate what they feel and experience in a car when comparably (to professional road testers) they have so little experience with which to draw on. Conveying what a car actually feels like is extremely hard to do so with total conviction. It is an opinion, but it isn't necessarily right.
I guess the real question is in a world where you could actually buy these things, which would you have if they were all list price? I would have the R. And I am really not talking up the values. I couldn't give a monkeys what it is worth supposedly if I vacuum packed it and sent it off to someones front room for them to stroke at night.
I only drove it for half an hour (the R) or so but it was enough. The steering is bloody great. I felt it had more feedback (which is the important bit of steering) than the RS and GT4. As for the 4.0 to be really sure, I would need to drive that again but I can't as it an invest.........sorry. What was I saying. No really, its really splitting hairs on the steering feel across all three or four cars. Yes it doesn't have the Metzger, which for some will mean it will always be lacking compared to those that are propelled by such an engine. But I really felt that the engine was one of its draws not one of its negatives. The gearbox is also lovely, as is the GT4's. it actually felt a little shorter in throw than the GT4. GT4 seems to have a longer plain. Neither are a bad gearbox. Nor is one less good than the other.
People will always have their views and there seem to be loads more on here who now don't like because they aren't getting one and because it is annoying that its now hypothetically at least, way too expensive. That is a shame but I do understand. On that basis I really don't like McLaren F1's and 250 SWB. Both crap cars. And too expensive.
But as for the finer points of the driving experience, it is hard to give too much weight to peoples views. Everyone sees and feels things so differently. Some people just regurgitate other peoples views and experiences. Fine, but I don't give that too much credence. Then there is ability of relative novices (including myself) to accurately articulate what they feel and experience in a car when comparably (to professional road testers) they have so little experience with which to draw on. Conveying what a car actually feels like is extremely hard to do so with total conviction. It is an opinion, but it isn't necessarily right.
I guess the real question is in a world where you could actually buy these things, which would you have if they were all list price? I would have the R. And I am really not talking up the values. I couldn't give a monkeys what it is worth supposedly if I vacuum packed it and sent it off to someones front room for them to stroke at night.
WCZ thanks for the compliment.
Cmoose, fair enough. Perhaps speechless was a little over the top, but when reviewing a car I think it's entirely natural to revert to hyperbole. But look I don't want an argument or a two week long debate. My only objective on this forum is too add value (to the forum not the price!) and share my views. I've driven lots of cars, owned lots of cars and in my opinion I'm better placed than most to comment on the driving side. Lord knows I've invested the time and money in making myself able to do so. People can knock it if they like, but honestly I just want to keep it simple and comment only on my personal experiences.
I still think the comparison of a GTS and R is a little blunt at best. The GTS and C2s are pitched at such a wide audience that it's no suprise they disappoint the more discerning buyers. But each to his own.
Cmoose, fair enough. Perhaps speechless was a little over the top, but when reviewing a car I think it's entirely natural to revert to hyperbole. But look I don't want an argument or a two week long debate. My only objective on this forum is too add value (to the forum not the price!) and share my views. I've driven lots of cars, owned lots of cars and in my opinion I'm better placed than most to comment on the driving side. Lord knows I've invested the time and money in making myself able to do so. People can knock it if they like, but honestly I just want to keep it simple and comment only on my personal experiences.
I still think the comparison of a GTS and R is a little blunt at best. The GTS and C2s are pitched at such a wide audience that it's no suprise they disappoint the more discerning buyers. But each to his own.
It was never seen as an investment (and still is not). But I can understand where you're coming from because those little differences to the standard model make it a much more focused car and that's why I enjoy it so much.
Could not agree more. What makes the car special is all the care and attention to detail and special components that work together to create a special package. But its precisely that which people are saying is contrived 'parts bin' and 'marketing' etc. For 134k it is an amazing and frankly exhilarating driving experience. For 400k it might be a bit disappointing. But not if you have more money than you know what to do with.
Could not agree more. What makes the car special is all the care and attention to detail and special components that work together to create a special package. But its precisely that which people are saying is contrived 'parts bin' and 'marketing' etc. For 134k it is an amazing and frankly exhilarating driving experience. For 400k it might be a bit disappointing. But not if you have more money than you know what to do with.
Hi Sam All - yes in all honesty. I was very lucky to get one I think, so had it come to it I would have paid 50k or so over for the right spec. But no more. I still feel that all this will end in tears and a fireball of torn up finance agreements. I'm just not into paying massive money for cars. 150-200k is just about workable, beyond that and I ask myself do I need to spend so much to enjoy driving? That's about my limit. If I had to spend over that to get my fix I'd just have a Caterham, looks rubbish but is the best driving experience bar none.
Re the price of the GT3.2 and R, I agree. It's a relatively small premium and worth every penny. Makes me laugh to think the 675LT is knocking on 300k with s big spec, even before a premium. The GT3 will be track biased and that'll jeopardise it for me. I've already said what I like about the R. It's not been designed for ultimate grip and it's better for it. But rest assured, the next GT3 will be an extremely attractive package too. I think the 997.2 GT3 and 991 GT3 are drop dead gorgeous. But the new 991.2 will ultimately succumb to appeasing the track rats. It's no bad thing, it'll just be different - which Is sort of the point!
Would I have a manual. That wouldn't be an easy call. When I don't have a choice it's so easy!
Re the price of the GT3.2 and R, I agree. It's a relatively small premium and worth every penny. Makes me laugh to think the 675LT is knocking on 300k with s big spec, even before a premium. The GT3 will be track biased and that'll jeopardise it for me. I've already said what I like about the R. It's not been designed for ultimate grip and it's better for it. But rest assured, the next GT3 will be an extremely attractive package too. I think the 997.2 GT3 and 991 GT3 are drop dead gorgeous. But the new 991.2 will ultimately succumb to appeasing the track rats. It's no bad thing, it'll just be different - which Is sort of the point!
Would I have a manual. That wouldn't be an easy call. When I don't have a choice it's so easy!
Edited by pistolp on Tuesday 19th July 22:20
Edited by pistolp on Tuesday 19th July 22:28
WCZ said:
you had an F50 at one point though, right?
must have paid 200k+ for that
Yes but that was 5y ago when I felt they weren't expensive. Paid 375k, turns out I was right. Now they're 1m+ and I just feel they've risen too fast too quickly to be sustainable. And with interest rates at historical lows. etc. must have paid 200k+ for that
Some people probably wont use their R's and some people probably will sell them for a big profit. Naff all anyone of us can do about it.
WCZ said:
no doubt, what did you think of the 50?
Stunning but way too big and too top endy for the road. Also felt huge as a LHD drive. Just a bit awkward in the UK. Mine also had a dodgy shift, can't remember where it wasn't right but coming down the box was very tricky in a couple of gears. It wasn't supposed to be like that and probably would have cost 30k to sort! In short it made a sensational noise and there was real theatre to the whole thing. It literally shook and vibrated due to the engine. It's bolted to the chassis. Made me feel like a kid to be honest, which is kind of what Ferraris are supposed to do. But at today's money they don't make any sense to me at all. Or maybe I mean I can't afford them anymore? I would have one over another F40.
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