GT4 or modded Cayman R

[J-P]

Tough call this.

Spec of the CR is pretty much bang on what I'd ask for in a car (manual, NA, flat 6, mid engined, RWD, hydraulic steering, proper hand brake, buckets, PSE, sports suspension, etc etc) but I think it lacks a bit of poke and I'd like more feel.

My name is down for the new GT4 and it should be pretty epic but it will cost the thick end of £75k with toys I'd have thought.

Whereas I could keep the CR, spend £7k on a Stage 4 Cargraphics upgrade which would take the power up to 360-380BHP and then get a 3 way adjustable Exe TC suspension for £10k, which would hopefully get more feel. This would probably get me a car that is just about ideal for me but cost me a lot less (I'm not planning on selling if I upgrade so don't need to factor in the additional depreciation of a modded car).

Thoughts?

[J-P]

Richie200 said:

GT4 spec unknown therefore difficult to gauge what route to take. Modding a Porsche will never see a financial return on investment (I find this rather strange as you will be improving the car but the wider market doesn't seem to appreciate this). I would wait until GT4 spec is officially released before making any decisions.

True but I'm not bothered by the financial return on investment and some things for the GT4 are known; for example, it will have EPAS and it will have e-handbrake and I still need to find another £30-£35k to get into a GT4, so not exactly pocket change either.

[J-P]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yes - I'm thinking that it's massively unlikely that the GT4 will have suspension that is anywhere near as good as a top end after market outfit like EXE TC. The problem with the 996, is that I can't stand the interior, it'd be something that I'd put up with to have a 996 GT3RS but they're out of reach for me now sadly and a 964 or 993 is just too old for my liking as my one car to use for track days etc. so I'd rather keep mine and spec it up than get something else and spec that up.

[J-P]

sootyvrs said:

J-P said:

I still need to find another £30-£35k to get into a GT4, so not exactly pocket change either.

I guess this is the million dollar question if the GT4 will be work the additional outlay!?

The CR is already a very focused driving machine and more than enough for the public roads... I suspect you probably won't be able to drive the GT4 (when it comes out) any faster without taking serious risk... so the question perhaps is how often will you take it on track where I'm sure the performance advantage with become apparent?

I'm sure the GT4 will be one heck of a machine when it arrives and probably hailed one of the greatest drivers cars currently available but subjectively, I wonder if it can provide more fun than the CR? I suspect it will be a close call and there maybe some arguement to say on this occasion "less" is perhaps "more"...

I'm convinced the GT4 will be utterly awesome. The high performance car division of Porsche don't really do clangers, so I'm sure it'll be brilliant. What I'm struggling with, is will it be worth £35k more than my CR? And if I'm prepared to spend £20k on mods to the CR, then which car would actually be better? Either car would be used almost exclusively for track days and weekend blatts, ironically, I could afford to do way more track days if I keep the CR as I'd have saved so much cash.

The other issue is although I really like the CR, I don't love it and it's hard to put a finger on why, so I'd hope the mods would transform the way I feel about the car too!

[J-P]

juansolo said:

Tow bar on the M and get a Caterham

It's sooo tempting but it would hardly ever get used in reality. The thing with the CR or GT4 is that you can still use them for shopping, driving to the station, driving long distances etc. Mrs. Will still get in it, if we're going out. With a Caterham it'd be just me all the time and track days only.

[J-P]

IMIA said:

As others have said wait to see the GT4 spec sheet then decide. The renderings I've seen of the GT4 look totally amazing. In terms of the Cayman R is it really in need of that sort of fettling? I understood the R to be sublime out of the box? Not sure i'd drop that sort of money modifying it and this is coming from someone who's spent not far of a Cayman R modifying one of my old bangers!

I'll definitely wait to see what the spec of the GT4 is like. The way it looks already has me thinking "want". If Porsche choose to equip it with double wishbones (as they did with the front end of the new Cayenne???), dry sump the NA engine, offer a manual and LSD, I don't think I'll be able to resist!

CR is a great car and when I'm driving it, I really enjoy and I suspect that if I do sell it, I'll really miss it a lot. But for me, it could be quicker and I'd like it to have more feel. Also, I do like the convenience of some of the mod cons, like phone prep, nav and iPod music library (even if I don't use them much).

[J-P]

fioran0 said:

J-P

If you are serious about weighing this up you need to talk to John at BGB Motorsports.
They ran the caymans in Rolex and do a bunch of cool stuff with Caymans at all levels of mods, including 3.8 transplants.
They will be able to make you aware of just what is possible and back it up with actual metrics on what effects etc are based on what they are doing, seeing and logging.

This thread may suffice if you just want to talk it around but at the end of the day there's no one can give you any actual advice that's more substantial than anything pulled out of their a$$.
Your time will be better served talking with them and letting you properly evaluate at least one side of the equation with respect to what you can do and how it will work for you to then enable the GT4 route to be compared.

Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 4th January 00:54

Thanks, Neil. I am serious about this, keeping the R would mean a lot more track time. I'll give John a call in the week and find out what's possible and get a view on costs.

[J-P]

Trev450 said:

OP - I'm following this with interest and would be grateful if you could post up your findings.

Will do Trev.

[J-P]

fioran0 said:

Sounds good. Obviously they aren't a practical option for doing the work given location but John is usually very helpful and should really be able to get you thinking. As I said, he will actually be able to tell you what an outcome will be for whatever is input based on what they are actually doing and have done.

Just to add some extra fuel; It would be interesting to know just what can be achieved using a 981 as a base instead of a 987 taking a similar approach as another comparison.
IF the R is at a premium just now then looking at the bigger picture one wonders whether swapping out the R for a 981 which will then be modded offers an approach as cost effective but with better outcomes. The work, particularly on the engine side may be cheaper using the 981 opening up some options.

Reading your post about creature comforts. Keep in mind its perfectly possible to take the car where you like from a driving and mechanical perspective while leaving the interior pretty much stock. The track or race safety/practical stuff doesn't need to be included if its not something thats wanted.

Not a BGB car but similar in scope to what they do and with a 3.8 etc..

Look awesome. I've contacted John by email already, so I'll see what he says. I'd probably get the car and chassis very close to track spec but yes I'd keep the interior more or less as is. Not too worried about carpets, sound deadening etc, but like convenience of Nav and phone module - Mrs always calls me on my way to and from track days and Nav looks tidy and enables me to get to and from tracks I've never been to before. I'll think on what you've said on 981 platform, although there are some things I don't like such as the EPAS and eHandbrake. I do like the gear positioning more though but getting a 981 to spec and then spending some cash on making it awesome is likely to be more expensive in my view. With the CR I'll keep the oily bits, so if it does ever become a sought after collector's item, then it can be reverted to stock and sold at any time if needs be. Likelihood is though, that if I mod, then I'll just keep it forever.

[J-P]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Moose I'd seen that SVP car. I may even have contacted them around a year ago or so. Yes I think this is the kind of thing I'd like to do to the R but I really want the ExeTC suspension as I think that they would build dampers with the best balance for ride and handling, as builders of championship winning rally car dampers and if you're going to mod the car anyway, may as well go for it! I'd also seen that you can get a bigger oil pan for the CR, which I was considering too but it's £2k, which seemed like a lot!

[J-P]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It's a good shout. I'll give them a buzz in the morning and see where we get to. Thanks Moose

[J-P]

fioran0 said:

Two comments.
It was my understanding that KW haven't offered custom valving on their V3 dampers for a while now. If you now want custom options you need to plump for the competition stuff which they will do in valving appropriate for a spring rate you like. The V3 type stuff can still be rebuilt by KW but nothing more. You are fixed with the spring rates they have allocated to the package.

I have covered this before but the limiting factor with respect to modern Porsche suspension is that there is only a small amount of travel available. Run huge amounts of droop and you can start to do really clever things with suspension. Just look at the WRC stuff for an example of what can be done when you have a large travel range. Its incredible from an engineering perspective.
Anyone coming at suspension options on modern Porsche sports cars are limited by the same lack of travel as everyone else. By bumping up the ride height there can be some opportunity to gain extra travel but thats not without significant compromise either.
The other aspect of the suspension set up, and its particularly relevant to the Boxster and Cayman because it runs struts at the rear also, is that as soon as the lower control arm moves past horizontal you lose camber. You don't need to get that low in terms of ride height for this to happen, nor do you need much suspension compression for it to happen.
So now you have limited suspension movement, plus for the box/cayman a compression limitation with respect to camber loss working to limit what you can do on the car.
Its simple to work around if you want maximum performance. Once you require comfort and improvements in control it gets tricky very quickly since theres little in the way of scope for differing approaches. Your spring is what its all about after all. The damper just controls the spring.

Neil - the ExeTC system suggests using a softer spring with their dampers as the tyre remains in better contact with the road. I'd have thought that this would have the added benefit of improving the ride comfort as well as sharpening up the handling. Is this correct?

[J-P]

juansolo said:

J-P said:

juansolo said:

Tow bar on the M and get a Caterham

It's sooo tempting but it would hardly ever get used in reality. The thing with the CR or GT4 is that you can still use them for shopping, driving to the station, driving long distances etc. Mrs. Will still get in it, if we're going out. With a Caterham it'd be just me all the time and track days only.

Not suggesting you sell the CR, just don't modify it Spend the money instead on a Caterham. I guarantee you'll never look back.

Ah I see what you mean - don't think an extra car will get past the steering committee.

[J-P]

I'd love a Caterham, I really would but I can't justify one. I'd never use it enough. If Caterham track days are in my future, it will be rentals through bookatrack.

Spoke with Dom at SVP this afternoon. I have a test drive of their car booked for 19th January, which I'm looking forward to. Dom is very confident that I'll find it pretty mind blowing.

[J-P]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Sounds good to me!

[J-P]

Thanks for the above, Neil. All very interesting and leads me to the conclusion that I definitely need expert help in this area.

On a separate note SVP is thinking about being able to have a brake bias box.

What is brake bias? I won't be racing the car but wondered whether or not it would add to the experience? Does it mean changing the braking force applied to each axle? If so, does that mean you need to amend for every corner?

Thanks

[J-P]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That's exactly what I want to do with mine, Moose and is exactly what I feel is wrong with the current set-up. I'm also thinking about getting gyrodiscs over the std items.

[J-P]

fioran0 said:

Have you got the GT3 master cylinder fitted yet?
This would be the first port of call on the cayman if it were me. The larger MC will reduce pedal travel and require more effort which is definitely a good thing in its case.

No I've got, better pads, brake fluid, GT3 brake ducts, as well as braided hose. GT3 MC is definitely the next thing on the list from braking perspective, I'll prioritise it if it's going to improve brake pedal feel (which to be honest is one of the few things about the car that I really don't like).

[J-P]

bcr5784 said:

J-P said:

Thanks for the above, Neil. All very interesting and leads me to the conclusion that I definitely need expert help in this area.

On a separate note SVP is thinking about being able to have a brake bias box.

What is brake bias? I won't be racing the car but wondered whether or not it would add to the experience? Does it mean changing the braking force applied to each axle? If so, does that mean you need to amend for every corner?

Thanks

Like others have said, it's about changing distribution of braking between the front and rear. It's extremely desirable when racing - you need to bias braking to the rear in the wet and the front in the dry. BUT with ABS this is not needed, and so its value is much reduced. It is probably a waste of time (with ABS) UNLESS you need to use trail braking to get turn in AND you can't get the degree of turn in you are trying to get. I think it almost certain that you won't need it since you are asking the question - and if you do you won't be asking the question!

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 6th January 19:34

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 6th January 19:39

That's interesting. At Snetterton a couple of years ago, the CR was great apart from the hairpin, where I did need to trail brake and the car still under steered. It really annoyed me actually, is this something that brake bias could have helped with?

[J-P]

bcr5784 said:

J-P said:

That's interesting. At Snetterton a couple of years ago, the CR was great apart from the hairpin, where I did need to trail brake and the car still under steered. It really annoyed me actually, is this something that brake bias could have helped with?

In theory, possibly - but there may be other factors at work.

Might need to try a car with it and see if it makes any difference. Cheers