Discussion
I've got a plan for the old 944 and as this part of the forum is a bit dead thought I'd keep a bit of a journal here.
This is my 1981 Porsche 944. It's the first RHD made and at present is prepared for historic rallying. It's a fantastic little car; light, fast, reliable, well made etc.
The current problem is that it's the only fun classic I own and it's an incredibly hostile environment for anything but balls out rallying. In addition I've also now started getting into track racing as well as rallying so I want something I can enjoy on the track, on the road and on the gravel - not an easy task really. It needs to remain road registered to qualify for some of the MSA road rallies I do.
The car is totally stripped inside, even the glue was removed. Lexan windows, roof skin stripped back to nothing, half cage, Cobra carbon buckets, OMP harnesses, Momo Corse steering wheel, Brantz rally tripmeter and stopwatches. This means it is very light but also very noisy - wind and tyre noise, gearbox, exhaust, you hear it all - a real assault on the senses.
I want to use the car for a number of things - events wise the Tour Auto (France) and Tour Britannia (UK) both stand out - they include a mix of track racing, closed stage rallying and road rallying.
The plan is to do a bit of what I'm calling 'RSRing' on it. The plan is:
1) Tidy up the wiring, relocate Brantz rally kit to a mount in the glovebox, give a more stock appearance to dash area.
2) Trim the transmission tunnel with a lightweight sound deadning and cover with a light open-weave carpet a la Singer.
3) The same to the boot/rear deck to try and cut down on NVR and boominess.
4) Upgrade front springs to give a 1.5-2'' drop, re-index rear torsion bars to match so there is zero rake. Keep the new Bilstein B6 dampers already on.
5) Replace both front wings with composite copies - the originals have taken a real beating to date and I could do with evening up the balance after all the weight has come out of the back with the strip.
6) 2 wheel sets: winter/rally set (already have these - 15'' Cookie Cutters in gold with Yoko W.Drive tyres). I've just bought the others - a set of 15'' Teledials which I'll run 205/50/15 888s on once they've been reconditioned and finished in the same gold as the Cookie Cutters.
7) Reinstall the normal 3 point seatbelts - these will be removed for racing and rallying but will encourage me to use it more I think.
The changes to the suspension will be key. In it's current form it is extremely lively on track with a centre of gravity way too high. However, clearance issues still have to be managed with the rallying part. Front springs with a small drop but much stiffer rebound rates should do the trick along with the torsion bar changes. One other alternative is to change it to fully adjustable coilovers front and back but that is pretty expensive and I'd not have huge faith in them being able to take the kind of grief I can throw at the Bilsteins.
That's about it for now I think - lots to crack on with including some remedial engine work. The car is blowing a little smoke on full throttle when very hot. I've managed to pick up a rare OEM oil catch can so will fit that and change the oil to a slightly heavier grade than the 10w40 Petronas fully synthetic that I've been using up until now.
Will keep this thread updated as things start happening. As I've been writing this I've had a message to say the Teledials have arrived so need to get those over to Magic Michael for blasting asap.
This is my 1981 Porsche 944. It's the first RHD made and at present is prepared for historic rallying. It's a fantastic little car; light, fast, reliable, well made etc.
The current problem is that it's the only fun classic I own and it's an incredibly hostile environment for anything but balls out rallying. In addition I've also now started getting into track racing as well as rallying so I want something I can enjoy on the track, on the road and on the gravel - not an easy task really. It needs to remain road registered to qualify for some of the MSA road rallies I do.
The car is totally stripped inside, even the glue was removed. Lexan windows, roof skin stripped back to nothing, half cage, Cobra carbon buckets, OMP harnesses, Momo Corse steering wheel, Brantz rally tripmeter and stopwatches. This means it is very light but also very noisy - wind and tyre noise, gearbox, exhaust, you hear it all - a real assault on the senses.
I want to use the car for a number of things - events wise the Tour Auto (France) and Tour Britannia (UK) both stand out - they include a mix of track racing, closed stage rallying and road rallying.
The plan is to do a bit of what I'm calling 'RSRing' on it. The plan is:
1) Tidy up the wiring, relocate Brantz rally kit to a mount in the glovebox, give a more stock appearance to dash area.
2) Trim the transmission tunnel with a lightweight sound deadning and cover with a light open-weave carpet a la Singer.
3) The same to the boot/rear deck to try and cut down on NVR and boominess.
4) Upgrade front springs to give a 1.5-2'' drop, re-index rear torsion bars to match so there is zero rake. Keep the new Bilstein B6 dampers already on.
5) Replace both front wings with composite copies - the originals have taken a real beating to date and I could do with evening up the balance after all the weight has come out of the back with the strip.
6) 2 wheel sets: winter/rally set (already have these - 15'' Cookie Cutters in gold with Yoko W.Drive tyres). I've just bought the others - a set of 15'' Teledials which I'll run 205/50/15 888s on once they've been reconditioned and finished in the same gold as the Cookie Cutters.
7) Reinstall the normal 3 point seatbelts - these will be removed for racing and rallying but will encourage me to use it more I think.
The changes to the suspension will be key. In it's current form it is extremely lively on track with a centre of gravity way too high. However, clearance issues still have to be managed with the rallying part. Front springs with a small drop but much stiffer rebound rates should do the trick along with the torsion bar changes. One other alternative is to change it to fully adjustable coilovers front and back but that is pretty expensive and I'd not have huge faith in them being able to take the kind of grief I can throw at the Bilsteins.
That's about it for now I think - lots to crack on with including some remedial engine work. The car is blowing a little smoke on full throttle when very hot. I've managed to pick up a rare OEM oil catch can so will fit that and change the oil to a slightly heavier grade than the 10w40 Petronas fully synthetic that I've been using up until now.
Will keep this thread updated as things start happening. As I've been writing this I've had a message to say the Teledials have arrived so need to get those over to Magic Michael for blasting asap.
Precisely what Michael (who looks after the car) said re the suspension. However, gravel will be by far the lowest priority for the kind of events I'm interested in. Realistically the ideal mix will be 50% track, 20% road, 20% road rallying, 10% gravel.
It'll be impossible to be perfect over all disciplines but for the sake of being able to use 100% throttle for track and road rallying in return for 75% throttle on gravel seems sensible.
Also - cash at a premium at the moment
It'll be impossible to be perfect over all disciplines but for the sake of being able to use 100% throttle for track and road rallying in return for 75% throttle on gravel seems sensible.
Also - cash at a premium at the moment
Thanks for all the comments, gents.
Specifically re the cage: this is a tricky one. The reason I went for a half cage rather than full was to do with ease of getting in and out. As many people here know I do a lot of work with Mission Motorsport and my MM navigator would struggle with a full cage.
That said you really can't argue with the overall safety aspects. Fortunately the way the car/seats is set up means it isn't quite the deathtrap it could be. The seats are very low and very far back (I'm massive) - both driver and navigator's heads are directly underneath or very slightly behind the roof bar.
All that said if the car is to be entered into the events with race elements it isn't a choice. The car has a current MSA/FIA technical passport for historic road rallying (cage choice open) but I'll need to change that to do Tour Auto for example.
The 'new' race wheels arrived the other day. These will go off to Michael (Talkwrench above, give him a call if you need any work doing!) for blasting and finishing in the same gold as the ATS Cookie Cutters in some of the pics above. 205/50/15 R888 tyres to go on.
I've also got the new discs and pads to go on, plus the speedo cable needs replacing.
Specifically re the cage: this is a tricky one. The reason I went for a half cage rather than full was to do with ease of getting in and out. As many people here know I do a lot of work with Mission Motorsport and my MM navigator would struggle with a full cage.
That said you really can't argue with the overall safety aspects. Fortunately the way the car/seats is set up means it isn't quite the deathtrap it could be. The seats are very low and very far back (I'm massive) - both driver and navigator's heads are directly underneath or very slightly behind the roof bar.
All that said if the car is to be entered into the events with race elements it isn't a choice. The car has a current MSA/FIA technical passport for historic road rallying (cage choice open) but I'll need to change that to do Tour Auto for example.
The 'new' race wheels arrived the other day. These will go off to Michael (Talkwrench above, give him a call if you need any work doing!) for blasting and finishing in the same gold as the ATS Cookie Cutters in some of the pics above. 205/50/15 R888 tyres to go on.
I've also got the new discs and pads to go on, plus the speedo cable needs replacing.
edh said:
Have you considered it might be cheaper in the long run to have two 944's? 
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C549712
The thought has occurred to me!http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C549712
However, there just aren't many (possibly any) 1981 manufactured cars about. The reason I bought mine is that it is a November 1981 build, that means it can be a true Class 3 historic rally car.
There is a new Class 4 (build date from Jan 1 1982 to Dec 31 1985) but Class 4 cars can only win their own class, not overall honours.
If I did buy another it would have to be a LHD
Interesting stuff, thanks.
The only OEM carpet I want is the boot/deck. The seats are on aluminium fillets through the floor so won't be carpeting under there. I have plain black mats in the front which are velcro on and do t budge.
I'll trim over the transmission tunnel myself with a thin carpet or fabric I think
The only OEM carpet I want is the boot/deck. The seats are on aluminium fillets through the floor so won't be carpeting under there. I have plain black mats in the front which are velcro on and do t budge.
I'll trim over the transmission tunnel myself with a thin carpet or fabric I think
andy97 said:
A couple of random thoughts,
Can a 944 really win overall on things like Tour Britannia? You know better than what you are up against but I'd have thought that the 911 hordes and MK 2 Escorts etc etc would prevail.
Can the suspension be changed to coil over rears and still remain in homologated spec for those sorts of events? Indeed, what is the scope for mods in these sort of events, ie can you fit something like Augment Automotive's ECU, can and fuel pressure regulator?
The 220 944 Turbo was homologated for competition (the only 944 that was, I think) and might be a great base car for a Class 4 Historic car if you can find one and afford to prep it.
Why Is LHD important
Have you thought about a 928 for a Tour Britania/ race/ track car and keeping the 944 for the road and road rallies. There's a few 928 prepped for pre 81 completion.
Does the actual car have to have been built pre Dec 1981 or is it just the model, ie could you buy the 1983 car in the link above and still enter it in Class 3 as it would be in the same spec as a 1981 car
Good questions. Can a 944 really win overall on things like Tour Britannia? You know better than what you are up against but I'd have thought that the 911 hordes and MK 2 Escorts etc etc would prevail.
Can the suspension be changed to coil over rears and still remain in homologated spec for those sorts of events? Indeed, what is the scope for mods in these sort of events, ie can you fit something like Augment Automotive's ECU, can and fuel pressure regulator?
The 220 944 Turbo was homologated for competition (the only 944 that was, I think) and might be a great base car for a Class 4 Historic car if you can find one and afford to prep it.
Why Is LHD important
Have you thought about a 928 for a Tour Britania/ race/ track car and keeping the 944 for the road and road rallies. There's a few 928 prepped for pre 81 completion.
Does the actual car have to have been built pre Dec 1981 or is it just the model, ie could you buy the 1983 car in the link above and still enter it in Class 3 as it would be in the same spec as a 1981 car
On performance, yes. On all of these kinds of events the winning is 75% from the navigator's seat, 25% from the driver. You do still need a turn of pace but it's not quite as high a priority as you'd think. That said the 944 iis a quick little car. During LeJog 2013 I managed the 2nd fastest of 71 cars up the Rest & Be Thankful hillclimb. The other 70 cars included Porsche 911s, Alpine A110s, Astons, Gordinis, early BMWs, Mini Coopers etc. The quickest car (beat me by 1 second) was a Mk1 Golf GTi with a very handy driver.
Suspension needs to remain as originally fitted. It can be upgraded but not changed. In my case the 944 has a torsion bar rear suspension setup. I could re-index them for a drop but not replace with coilovers. Adding a spring to the damper (as a coilover unit) would be sailing close to the MSA wind. May pass, may not.
944T would be a great car but I've no real interest in Class 4. It would be a hell of a lot of fun but those cars are prohibited from winning an event outright. Class 4 can only win honours in class at best.
LHD as Simon says, there just aren't any RHD ones left.
Dates: the individual car itself needs to have been manufactured on or before Dec31 1981 for MSA/FIA rally regs.
Yep, an excellent idea. They have form on the Monte too.
I came perilously close to buying a Carrera GT just before Christmas. French LHD car that had been off the road for 14 years. Sadly stored badly and it nearly broke in half when pulled out of the outbuilding. Shame as I had an agreed €18k to buy it.
Owner has broken it for spares and already sold most of it to German buyers.
As for 931, will give that some thought.
I came perilously close to buying a Carrera GT just before Christmas. French LHD car that had been off the road for 14 years. Sadly stored badly and it nearly broke in half when pulled out of the outbuilding. Shame as I had an agreed €18k to buy it.
Owner has broken it for spares and already sold most of it to German buyers.
As for 931, will give that some thought.
Not had chance to do much recently but that's about to change. My wife's Golf has gone pop so am lending her my E39 for a bit and will use the 944 as daily wheels for a month or so. That should galvanise me into action as it'll be so f
king uncomfortable!
Some small progress though, wheel based.
I bought a set of early deep dish 15'' Teledials and they've been blasted by Talkwrench and are ready for paint.
I also managed to pick up a set of matching proper metal centre caps. They were in st state so I gave them some love in the garage. Really chuffed at how much detail I've managed to keep.
This is the winter rally set of Cookie Cutters. The Teledials above will be finished in exactly the same paint and I'll do the centrecaps in some spare Porsche Montego Black to match the body colour. Well swank!
More to come shortly. As I'll be using the car I'll need to sort a few things. The passenger footwell is currently full of Pagid discs, pads and bits so they need to go on. The speedo cable needs replacing and the oil catch can installing. Busy busy.
king uncomfortable!Some small progress though, wheel based.
I bought a set of early deep dish 15'' Teledials and they've been blasted by Talkwrench and are ready for paint.
I also managed to pick up a set of matching proper metal centre caps. They were in s
t state so I gave them some love in the garage. Really chuffed at how much detail I've managed to keep.This is the winter rally set of Cookie Cutters. The Teledials above will be finished in exactly the same paint and I'll do the centrecaps in some spare Porsche Montego Black to match the body colour. Well swank!
More to come shortly. As I'll be using the car I'll need to sort a few things. The passenger footwell is currently full of Pagid discs, pads and bits so they need to go on. The speedo cable needs replacing and the oil catch can installing. Busy busy.
I'll be selling a set of 4 early offset Cookie Cutters shortly. They were a bit of an experiment as they were media blasted and then clearcoated over the bare metal. I think they look ace. They're the ones in the very first photo on this thread.
Currently on 205/55/15 Vredstein Sportracs.
Currently on 205/55/15 Vredstein Sportracs.
Well my wife's kiddy wagon ist kaput after 160,000 miles from new (Mk4 Golf TDi 150, cam gone) so she's been using my E39 as the daily bus. This means for the last 3 weeks I've drafted the 944 into daily use as my commuter.
It's far from ideal, the noise is mental, the heater and demister is absolute cack, it doesn't have door handles and can't be locked due to the Lexan window sliders.... but I'm loving it. Done 700 miles now and it is the perfect way to start and end the day.
It's also given me the impetus to start sorting it out as detailed in this thread.
It's had new front discs and pads last week which has sorted the terrible wobble under braking. I've never replaced the discs since I bought it 3 years ago and they've managed about 6000 rally miles (plus another 10k of general honing) so I can't complain really.
I've given the interior a proper bottoming for the first time since LeJog. So much crap left in there after 4 days hard going. Much nicer place to sit now.
It also needed a new top hose after it split. Quite an easy job when you work out you spend 30 seconds removing the AFM and Robert's your mother's brother.
For Christmas I asked wifey for a few little swank bits from Highgate House and they're all on now. Gone full JPS and love it. A few more bits to sort out like spraying up the radiator mesh in matching gold etc but that'll be enough of the Queer Eye for the Straight Porsche.
There are now a few jobs lined up which need attending to as soon as some cash comes in at work that I'm expecting. Rear wheel bearings need replacing, some new dampers and bushes for the rear, speedo cable replacing. Also need to invest in some decent new top mounts as we're just not happy with what's on and it's proving nigh on impossible to get the geo set up correctly despite paying over £200 to RPM to try with what's already there.
At the same time I think I'll buy a set of slight drop front springs and ask Michael to re-index the rear. The sort of rallying I'm now doing doesn't need miles of ground clearance. a 1'' drop from stock combined with some decent skid plating should be bang on.
Lastly will be dealing with the dash. At present it is very, erm, functional. I want to get back to a cleaner look. The general idea will be to relocate the Brantz to the glovebox on a fixed mount and make the glovebox lid removable. I only need it when competing so should work out ok.
That's about it for now, more to come over the next few weeks as cash & time allow.
It's far from ideal, the noise is mental, the heater and demister is absolute cack, it doesn't have door handles and can't be locked due to the Lexan window sliders.... but I'm loving it. Done 700 miles now and it is the perfect way to start and end the day.
It's also given me the impetus to start sorting it out as detailed in this thread.
It's had new front discs and pads last week which has sorted the terrible wobble under braking. I've never replaced the discs since I bought it 3 years ago and they've managed about 6000 rally miles (plus another 10k of general honing) so I can't complain really.
I've given the interior a proper bottoming for the first time since LeJog. So much crap left in there after 4 days hard going. Much nicer place to sit now.
It also needed a new top hose after it split. Quite an easy job when you work out you spend 30 seconds removing the AFM and Robert's your mother's brother.
For Christmas I asked wifey for a few little swank bits from Highgate House and they're all on now. Gone full JPS and love it. A few more bits to sort out like spraying up the radiator mesh in matching gold etc but that'll be enough of the Queer Eye for the Straight Porsche.
There are now a few jobs lined up which need attending to as soon as some cash comes in at work that I'm expecting. Rear wheel bearings need replacing, some new dampers and bushes for the rear, speedo cable replacing. Also need to invest in some decent new top mounts as we're just not happy with what's on and it's proving nigh on impossible to get the geo set up correctly despite paying over £200 to RPM to try with what's already there.
At the same time I think I'll buy a set of slight drop front springs and ask Michael to re-index the rear. The sort of rallying I'm now doing doesn't need miles of ground clearance. a 1'' drop from stock combined with some decent skid plating should be bang on.
Lastly will be dealing with the dash. At present it is very, erm, functional. I want to get back to a cleaner look. The general idea will be to relocate the Brantz to the glovebox on a fixed mount and make the glovebox lid removable. I only need it when competing so should work out ok.
That's about it for now, more to come over the next few weeks as cash & time allow.
Gotcha. Thought you meant these
http://www.donbarrow.co.uk/halda_haldas_tripmeters...
One day I'll have one and a Heuer Monte Carlo twin set.
http://www.donbarrow.co.uk/halda_haldas_tripmeters...
One day I'll have one and a Heuer Monte Carlo twin set.
GC8 said:
Ive got a Monte Carlo. Brand new, old stock. I keep it in a safe and it hasn't ever actually been inside a car... 
I've long-since stopped trying to get an original Halda as they're so expensive. A Brantz Retrotrip will have to suffice...
Simon, what a waste, needs to be peppered in gravel and spit from a navigator's mouth. Get it out there!I've long-since stopped trying to get an original Halda as they're so expensive. A Brantz Retrotrip will have to suffice...
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