UK 951 Race Cars - Where are they?
Discussion
After much deliberation I've decided I'm building my 951 to run in CSCC Future Classics; it's going to be a reasonably sensible spec and I'm keeping the car road legal. I'm not out to win, just to be reasonably competitive and most importantly to have fun racing against other cool cars.
Over the last few months I've been doing a ton of reading up on other 944/951 club cars and also Cup cars, but all the info on the web relates to cars overseas and it seems that hardly anyone (possibly no one at present in club circuit racing) races 951's in the UK. Yet the yanks are mad for it, using them from everything from production classes right through to full on GT endurance racers. There seem to be a few being used in Europe too, including a few Cup still being used in anger. So clearly they offer a great package for racing at a club level. On one hand the lack of UK race cars has been bugging me, but on the other hand it just encourages me even more to build mine.
Whilst the costs to build and run a 951 are going to be a bit more than an S2 (which there are many of at club events), a 951 should be a competitive and reliable car to run in the 3-4l classes, as long as the tune/boost is kept to a sensible level (300ish bhp much like a cup car) and the cooling system is good. Maybe everyone has gone for 911's instead, but the costs of doing that now are prohibitive to say the least.
So where are they all folks?
Over the last few months I've been doing a ton of reading up on other 944/951 club cars and also Cup cars, but all the info on the web relates to cars overseas and it seems that hardly anyone (possibly no one at present in club circuit racing) races 951's in the UK. Yet the yanks are mad for it, using them from everything from production classes right through to full on GT endurance racers. There seem to be a few being used in Europe too, including a few Cup still being used in anger. So clearly they offer a great package for racing at a club level. On one hand the lack of UK race cars has been bugging me, but on the other hand it just encourages me even more to build mine.
Whilst the costs to build and run a 951 are going to be a bit more than an S2 (which there are many of at club events), a 951 should be a competitive and reliable car to run in the 3-4l classes, as long as the tune/boost is kept to a sensible level (300ish bhp much like a cup car) and the cooling system is good. Maybe everyone has gone for 911's instead, but the costs of doing that now are prohibitive to say the least.
So where are they all folks?
I thought you might be along to answer this one Andy. Interesting, so there must have been quite a few at one point then, probably before they were really considered to be classics. There must be a few hiding in the woodwork somewhere!
I guess ultimately an E36 M3 provides the same level of performance more cost effectively, so I guess many have gone for those instead. A thought that has crossed my mind, but I'd sooner race a 944. Plus I only plan on doing a couple of events a year so it should keep the costs manageable and it something major breaks, I'll just park it up until I've fixed it. Really I can't think of another classic car I'd sooner race that I can afford! Plus it's good to be different and I figure that being as Porsche built a factory 951 racer, as interest in them gathers they should be a very credible classic racer in the future. I'm thinking long term with this car, which isn't like me at all when it comes to cars!
Engine management is something I've considered and in the medium term I plan to go for an Augment or VEMS setup, coupled with a tweaked K26. I also plan on fitting a larger oil cooler over the winter.
You're right though, I reckon if you threw enough money at a 951 you could build a very serious bit of kit indeed. Although the old 951 vs 928 debate will rumble on until someone does it (my pockets certainly aren't deep enough to build a car to compete with the fast 928s!).
I guess ultimately an E36 M3 provides the same level of performance more cost effectively, so I guess many have gone for those instead. A thought that has crossed my mind, but I'd sooner race a 944. Plus I only plan on doing a couple of events a year so it should keep the costs manageable and it something major breaks, I'll just park it up until I've fixed it. Really I can't think of another classic car I'd sooner race that I can afford! Plus it's good to be different and I figure that being as Porsche built a factory 951 racer, as interest in them gathers they should be a very credible classic racer in the future. I'm thinking long term with this car, which isn't like me at all when it comes to cars!
Engine management is something I've considered and in the medium term I plan to go for an Augment or VEMS setup, coupled with a tweaked K26. I also plan on fitting a larger oil cooler over the winter.
You're right though, I reckon if you threw enough money at a 951 you could build a very serious bit of kit indeed. Although the old 951 vs 928 debate will rumble on until someone does it (my pockets certainly aren't deep enough to build a car to compete with the fast 928s!).
Cheburator mk2 said:
We run one in CSCC until it went thru its headgasket at Brands earlier this year...
Ours runs a K26/K27 hybrid, different throttle body, steel dry liners, Woessner pistons, Lindsay racing dual port waste gate, ported head, 800cc injectors, 3bar fpr, Bosch 044 pump and a 3" exhaust.
We also went with Augment. The system is brilliant, Tom has been very helpful, however his guy who mapped it was frankly rubbish, which ultimately led to the blown gasket. Anyhow, she is all buttoned up with a new Cometic and ready for a proper mapping session at Torque Developments.
Things we love - ours has the biggest, baddest Custom Cages installed. As a matter of fact, the whole of the UK steel production in 2010 was used for the pipes. It still has steel panels, yet it comes at 1220kg with the driver. The chassis is astounding, especially for a car developed in the 1970s. It is cheap to run and in the right hands - Mark Koeberle won the Future Classics as a novice in 2010 - very fast.
Things we hate - the engine is frankly s
t. 8:1 compression and a 8v head make for utterly mundane experience when off boost. The lack of ABS (ours is a 1985 car) and the st brakes (unless you bag a Turbo S) - we fitted rebuilt 928GT calipers at the front. Not much else.
The 944T was homologated by Porsche, and is eligible for things like the Youngtimer. In years to come, it will only become more sought after.
Why aren't we at the front of the pack in CSCC? Err, talent deficiency, lack of seat time and last but not least teething problems with the brakes - a booster went boom at Snetterton, original early Turbo front calipers seized at Brands at Race 1 and then ultimately the headgasket blew up.
Hopefully this time we will make our Turdo run better and actually do it justice....
http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk/944-turbo-race-...
That's useful info, thanks. Mine is also an early offset car so am too stuck with naff brakes, although I'd sooner do without ABS so that doesn't bother me. Finding spare wheels is a huge PITA though! I'm going to fully duct the front brakes so I'm hoping this will help keep them usable for the full 40mins.Ours runs a K26/K27 hybrid, different throttle body, steel dry liners, Woessner pistons, Lindsay racing dual port waste gate, ported head, 800cc injectors, 3bar fpr, Bosch 044 pump and a 3" exhaust.
We also went with Augment. The system is brilliant, Tom has been very helpful, however his guy who mapped it was frankly rubbish, which ultimately led to the blown gasket. Anyhow, she is all buttoned up with a new Cometic and ready for a proper mapping session at Torque Developments.
Things we love - ours has the biggest, baddest Custom Cages installed. As a matter of fact, the whole of the UK steel production in 2010 was used for the pipes. It still has steel panels, yet it comes at 1220kg with the driver. The chassis is astounding, especially for a car developed in the 1970s. It is cheap to run and in the right hands - Mark Koeberle won the Future Classics as a novice in 2010 - very fast.
Things we hate - the engine is frankly s
t. 8:1 compression and a 8v head make for utterly mundane experience when off boost. The lack of ABS (ours is a 1985 car) and the st brakes (unless you bag a Turbo S) - we fitted rebuilt 928GT calipers at the front. Not much else. The 944T was homologated by Porsche, and is eligible for things like the Youngtimer. In years to come, it will only become more sought after.
Why aren't we at the front of the pack in CSCC? Err, talent deficiency, lack of seat time and last but not least teething problems with the brakes - a booster went boom at Snetterton, original early Turbo front calipers seized at Brands at Race 1 and then ultimately the headgasket blew up.
Hopefully this time we will make our Turdo run better and actually do it justice....
http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk/944-turbo-race-...
I was at the Brands round too, although I was racing in TinTops on the Sunday so missed most of the racing on Saturday which is probably why I didn't clock your 951...
That's useful feedback on Augment, when I get round to that I plan on using Wayne Scofield for mapping at Ninemeister as they're only an hour up the road and he work wonders with my Pug 106 Rallye hillclimb car.
Having already driven mine on track a fair bit already (including tight sprint courses) I wouldn't call the engine's s
t personally, but you do have to manage the boost; I'm not much of a left foot braker but a bootful well before the apex usually does the trick. Although on tighter courses you need to be quick with your right foot to regulate the torque! Going AFM-less and possibly an S2 final drive will help with this though... That's a good weight though, does the shell still have all its underseal?
I didn't know you were on here Martin... If I'm honest your Cup has been a bit of an inspiration for me deciding to go racing in mine. Cup cars are out of my league, on the rare occasion they actually come up for sale that is! But it really wouldn't take too much effort to build a 'nearly' cup car for sensible money. And that's kind of my plan really.
Cheburator thanks for the info Re. brakes, that's really useful to know. That doesn't sound too much effort, but to start off I'll stick with the stock brakes as I've just fitted new rotors and the PFC pads aren't that old either. Once they're goosed though...
It seems there's a few around at least! Although there would be a lot more around if the PCGBC hadn't gone sour.
Cheburator thanks for the info Re. brakes, that's really useful to know. That doesn't sound too much effort, but to start off I'll stick with the stock brakes as I've just fitted new rotors and the PFC pads aren't that old either. Once they're goosed though...
It seems there's a few around at least! Although there would be a lot more around if the PCGBC hadn't gone sour.
MarkKo said:
Just spotted this thread!
The car that i had built for 2010 Future classics was quite simple really not massively exotic at all.
It was a 88 silver rose,i took it to Promax to have the engine refreshed,it was fully serviced and had a MBC and their chips added to run about 1.0 bar boost.It then went to EMC at Birmingham where it was lightened with plastic front wings,nose and bonnet.Underseal stayed in place it was just a road shell.
The door trims replaced with carbon fibre sheet type,electric windows and central locking stayed in place!
Interior removed, safety- devices cage fitted,Cobra race seats and six points fitted and usual race stuff like fire extinguisher etc and a GAZ coilover kit.The car was painted inside and out in a fetching shade of Maritime blue and was totally road legal cup car sort of look a like,i had just started at club racing and didnt have a clue,i just drove it to its first test day...!.By the end of the year i had swapped from a standard exhaust to a Fabspeed 3 inch,greddy EBC,a LR intercooler and went from its standard forged road wheels to 17 inch cup 1s.It was quite competitive in Future classics and won outright at Spa and Mallory park (it did a 53.3 second lap) on Tr888s and road-able suspension,i kept it in a low state of tune and standard turbo for reliabilty it had zero DNFs with me.
Great car and experience.I reluctantly sold it to fund another car- racing in the PCGB championships in a 968 in which i did 4 seasons.Good times!
Thanks for all the info chaps and Mark that's really good to hear! After I posted this up I was half expecting everyone to talk me out of this with horror stories of unreliability etc., but the opposite has happened and I have even more enthusiasm now. Mark your old car sounds pretty much what I'm aiming for. I'm already a reasonable way in on the tuning and updating side with the car (Lindsey chips, DPW, circa 1bar boost, top end rebuild, coilovers, new bushes and arms, new fuel lines) and the car is already pretty impressive on track.The car that i had built for 2010 Future classics was quite simple really not massively exotic at all.
It was a 88 silver rose,i took it to Promax to have the engine refreshed,it was fully serviced and had a MBC and their chips added to run about 1.0 bar boost.It then went to EMC at Birmingham where it was lightened with plastic front wings,nose and bonnet.Underseal stayed in place it was just a road shell.
The door trims replaced with carbon fibre sheet type,electric windows and central locking stayed in place!
Interior removed, safety- devices cage fitted,Cobra race seats and six points fitted and usual race stuff like fire extinguisher etc and a GAZ coilover kit.The car was painted inside and out in a fetching shade of Maritime blue and was totally road legal cup car sort of look a like,i had just started at club racing and didnt have a clue,i just drove it to its first test day...!.By the end of the year i had swapped from a standard exhaust to a Fabspeed 3 inch,greddy EBC,a LR intercooler and went from its standard forged road wheels to 17 inch cup 1s.It was quite competitive in Future classics and won outright at Spa and Mallory park (it did a 53.3 second lap) on Tr888s and road-able suspension,i kept it in a low state of tune and standard turbo for reliabilty it had zero DNFs with me.
Great car and experience.I reluctantly sold it to fund another car- racing in the PCGB championships in a 968 in which i did 4 seasons.Good times!
My plan is to save a decent chunk of cash over the winter before getting down to business in the spring, so hopefully I'll manage to get one or two events in next year. I have it all mapped out in my head so when I get chance I'll list down everything I have in mind.
Well just to update this I'm pleased to say my build is happening: there's a broad build plan, parts are being acquired and the car is off the road with it's front end removed as I've started work on a few things.
I'm currently fitting a larger oil cooler, removing PAS (the rack is currently in pieces on my work bench as I'm doing it the proper cup-car way), I've chopped much of the IC inlet end tank off and I'm fabricating a new tank, I'm replacing the rad and fitting a lighter jap alternator (I've already ditched the AC). I've also acquired a pair of rebuilt 996T 'monoblock' calipers and have decided to convert the hubs to late offset as the hubs and spindles are stronger and the availability of wheels is much more straight forwards. In fact a set of 996 17" 'twist' wheels arrived this week
there's a lot better choice of 17 tyres too and they're a lot cheaper. I plan on using 993 Carrera discs which will bolt straight up to the later hubs and I'll fab up my own caliper mounts. I'm after a set of late offset hubs and spindles if anyone knows of any going spare...
Other plans at this time also include fitting a Garrett T3/T4e 50-trim turbo in place of the old K26/6, which should be a decent match for the 2.5 and I'll probably VEMS and of course higher flow and more modern injectors. I'll lift the motor to fit the turbo as I'll need to fab up a new crossover pipe, so I'll also renew the big-end shells, reinforce the oil pickup, fit baffles and fit a lighter flywheel/clutch. FIA cage, 4.25l extinguisher and a decent seat will also be going in.
Lots to be getting on with!!!
I'm currently fitting a larger oil cooler, removing PAS (the rack is currently in pieces on my work bench as I'm doing it the proper cup-car way), I've chopped much of the IC inlet end tank off and I'm fabricating a new tank, I'm replacing the rad and fitting a lighter jap alternator (I've already ditched the AC). I've also acquired a pair of rebuilt 996T 'monoblock' calipers and have decided to convert the hubs to late offset as the hubs and spindles are stronger and the availability of wheels is much more straight forwards. In fact a set of 996 17" 'twist' wheels arrived this week
there's a lot better choice of 17 tyres too and they're a lot cheaper. I plan on using 993 Carrera discs which will bolt straight up to the later hubs and I'll fab up my own caliper mounts. I'm after a set of late offset hubs and spindles if anyone knows of any going spare...Other plans at this time also include fitting a Garrett T3/T4e 50-trim turbo in place of the old K26/6, which should be a decent match for the 2.5 and I'll probably VEMS and of course higher flow and more modern injectors. I'll lift the motor to fit the turbo as I'll need to fab up a new crossover pipe, so I'll also renew the big-end shells, reinforce the oil pickup, fit baffles and fit a lighter flywheel/clutch. FIA cage, 4.25l extinguisher and a decent seat will also be going in.
Lots to be getting on with!!!
eldavo said:
I'm very tempted by VEMS from a cost effectiveness point of view over the Augment system so will be eagerly awaiting the results. I want the end tank mod doing on my intercooler too (but again, the company offering this service in the UK seems very expensive) so if you fancy doing another or can share the details so I can get it done locally then that would be awesome !
One of the biggest factors for me choosing VEMS over Augment is price, but also the features Peep is able to offer. It's a well established system but seems not to be very popular over here which I presume to be due to the popularity of Megasquirt... And although it's not as popular as Megasquirt, it's still reasonably well supported and is fully open source. Augment looks great, but what happens with regards to support if something happens to them?.. I'm mid way through doing my end tank so I'll let you know how it goes. My time is limited, but I may be up for doing another one or two. I've been meaning to get a project thread going on tipec and/or pccgb so keep an eye on there
So I've created a Facebook page as it's the easiest way to post updates. Search for Dick Harman Motorsport and like the page if you want to follow what I'm up to. This is not a chequebook built car, I will be doing as much of the work as possible (I'm a engineer so I live for this stuff) so I hope it will be an interesting read.
R
R
Obviously I'll keep people updated on the VEMS side of things as and when I get round to management, which is now likely to be later in the year if not next winter.
I popped along to EMC over the Xmas break to take a look at ravon's (Mark's old) car and it was very nice and has clearly has an awful lot of money thrown at it recently! It's ready to go, but the spec doesn't quite accord with my plans so I'm pressing on with my build. It was good to go any view another Turbo racer though, they also had a US 951 racer someone has imported (anyone on here?). Although some aspects of that car were more of a lesson in how not to it, as EMC are correcting a few issues/mods apparently picked up in its time in the US. Let's just say a certain US-based 951 tuner's parts catalogue had been thrown at it...
Off to Autosport next weekend to chat to more companies regarding roll cages and to check out a load of other bits I have in mind for the build.
I popped along to EMC over the Xmas break to take a look at ravon's (Mark's old) car and it was very nice and has clearly has an awful lot of money thrown at it recently! It's ready to go, but the spec doesn't quite accord with my plans so I'm pressing on with my build. It was good to go any view another Turbo racer though, they also had a US 951 racer someone has imported (anyone on here?). Although some aspects of that car were more of a lesson in how not to it, as EMC are correcting a few issues/mods apparently picked up in its time in the US. Let's just say a certain US-based 951 tuner's parts catalogue had been thrown at it...
Off to Autosport next weekend to chat to more companies regarding roll cages and to check out a load of other bits I have in mind for the build.
NJH said:
Use EMC to install the Custom Cages solution weld in multipoint. I think that has to be the best cage these days for a 944/968.
I agree having seen their work and the cage in question, as it seems like its the only cage that fully ties into the front turrets and has fully triangulated A-pillars. Kevin pointed out to me the limitations of the alternative offerings and some of the front end damage he'd seen and the potential risks of not going all the way to the front of the car. However I don't think it's the right solution for me as the car will be kept road legal and must retain a certain level of 'comfort', but I haven't fully ruled them out yet and clearly they are good at what they do. There are some other factors thrown into the equation that I'm not prepared to write on a public forum.I'm building the car along the lines of a 'historic' car and some level of trim will be retained, which can't be with the Custom Cages FIA install- I also hillclimb and I'm trying to keep the car legal for Class 1c as the car would be completely outgunned in 2c (hillclimb mod-prod cars are very different to circuit cars when you look at them in detail, plus I don't have the budget for slicks as well as 1B tyres); any cage that ties in to the suspension mounting points isn't legal for roadgoing and nor would I be able to retain much trim.
That's not to say I'm resorting to fitting a 'toy' cage, but I have a brief that other installs seem to satisfy whilst providing a good level of safety. Bear in mind that I'm not preparing this car to compete week-in week-out, I'm building it with fun in mind and it has to be versatile. I fully understand this also means it will be compromised in some areas...
Cheburator mk2 said:
Jeez! Not seen that one before, how say's the 944 sounds boring eh!.. Obviously that's a very well developed car, but no doubt so are the modern GT spec cars it's racing. Very impressive.Quick update on my build: the car is currently at Nickson Motorsport for a bespoke roll cage install. I should get it back in a few weeks time
Shame, it looks like a good buy for the money but I guess most people buying a ready prepped car just want to buy something they can jump in and go so the engine work probably puts them off... Still I'm sure you could easily make your price back on breaking it and still keep some of the nice bits back for use on another car.
Look forward to seeing the 951!
Look forward to seeing the 951!
I guess racing is very much about taking the rough with the smooth! Or at least it is for me... Sounds like as you say, some more seat time will help.
If it still has a stock turbo final drive the gearing isn't right for tighter circuits in my experience, so that may explain why you didn't feel the gearing was right. Way down the priority list on mine I would like to change the crown-wheel and pinion. But right now it would be nice just to have a working car!
I'm certainly not going to make Donnington sadly, but I'm flirting with the idea of entering the Open at Oulton just as a shake-down. That's if it's ready!!
If it still has a stock turbo final drive the gearing isn't right for tighter circuits in my experience, so that may explain why you didn't feel the gearing was right. Way down the priority list on mine I would like to change the crown-wheel and pinion. But right now it would be nice just to have a working car!
I'm certainly not going to make Donnington sadly, but I'm flirting with the idea of entering the Open at Oulton just as a shake-down. That's if it's ready!!
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