Forghieri speaks on the Glickenhaus car
Discussion
Because I questioned whether Ferrari would have used the method found on the Glickenhaus/Piper 0003 chassis to deal with the issue of fitting the P4 engine to a P3 chassis, I wrote to Ing. Mauro Forghieri, who joined Ferrari in January, 1960 having just graduated at the University of Bologna in Mechanical Engineering and was the Chief Technical Director at Ferrari's Race Department from October, 1961 to 1984. As well as all the Formula 1 cars and other Prototypes from this period, he designed the 330 P3, 412P, 330 P3/4 (0846) and 330 P4. I included photos from Jim Glickenhaus's 0846 pdf document and asked whether or not the engine mountings were his work. Ing. Forghieri was kind enough to look over the photos and respond. I have his permission in writing to post his information, which has been independently authenticated on another web site, as follows:
"Dear Mr.Robertson
I will say what I remember of so old days.In 1966 we design the 330 P3-0846. This car take part at the 12 h of Sebring number 27 drivers Parkes Bondurant. I like to make clear that P3 and P4 are from aerodinamic point of view very close.The draft was done by the technical bureau of Ferrari racing DPT. MR Drogo had nothing to do with the cars of Ferrari racing departement. The 330 P3 spyder was modified at the end of 1966 in a new P4 with the new 3 valve engine,curved intakes with injection,new Ferrari gearbox, minor modifications to the chassis with 2400 wheelbase.The modest wheelbase was thanks to the good aereodinamic stability developed at the aereodinamic wind tunnel in Stutgart.
This prototipe was the test car for private test(first in Ferrari History) in Daytona December 1966. The 0846.P4 spyder was used in the following races 1967:
Daytona 24 h winner Amon-Bandini n.23
Targa Florio Vaccarella -Scarfiotti
Le Mans 67 Amon-Vaccarella
Amon was hit by a flying wheel and the car caught fire and was badly damaged. The car was discarted by Ferrari and the chassis was destroyed. The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount. Your chassis is a P3 arranged by some body to accept the P4 engine and the correct wheelbase 2400.
I hope to have been of some help.
Kind regards
Mauro Forghieri"
From this response, we have learned that:
1. According to Mauro Forghieri, chassis 0846 was discarded to the Ferrari scrap yard after Le Mans '67.
2. Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis.
3. According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications.
4. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is not the original 0846.
5. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is probably another P3 chassis, modified to accept a P4 engine.
Of course, #5 creates another question: Which one and why? However, in corresponding with Ing. Forghieri I did not mention that the Glickenhaus chassis was a replica originally commissioned by David Piper. He only has photographs of the engine mountings so it is understandable why he concluded that it is probably another P3 chassis and not that of a replica of a P3/P4 that the chassis actually is.
"Dear Mr.Robertson
I will say what I remember of so old days.In 1966 we design the 330 P3-0846. This car take part at the 12 h of Sebring number 27 drivers Parkes Bondurant. I like to make clear that P3 and P4 are from aerodinamic point of view very close.The draft was done by the technical bureau of Ferrari racing DPT. MR Drogo had nothing to do with the cars of Ferrari racing departement. The 330 P3 spyder was modified at the end of 1966 in a new P4 with the new 3 valve engine,curved intakes with injection,new Ferrari gearbox, minor modifications to the chassis with 2400 wheelbase.The modest wheelbase was thanks to the good aereodinamic stability developed at the aereodinamic wind tunnel in Stutgart.
This prototipe was the test car for private test(first in Ferrari History) in Daytona December 1966. The 0846.P4 spyder was used in the following races 1967:
Daytona 24 h winner Amon-Bandini n.23
Targa Florio Vaccarella -Scarfiotti
Le Mans 67 Amon-Vaccarella
Amon was hit by a flying wheel and the car caught fire and was badly damaged. The car was discarted by Ferrari and the chassis was destroyed. The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount. Your chassis is a P3 arranged by some body to accept the P4 engine and the correct wheelbase 2400.
I hope to have been of some help.
Kind regards
Mauro Forghieri"
From this response, we have learned that:
1. According to Mauro Forghieri, chassis 0846 was discarded to the Ferrari scrap yard after Le Mans '67.
2. Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis.
3. According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications.
4. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is not the original 0846.
5. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is probably another P3 chassis, modified to accept a P4 engine.
Of course, #5 creates another question: Which one and why? However, in corresponding with Ing. Forghieri I did not mention that the Glickenhaus chassis was a replica originally commissioned by David Piper. He only has photographs of the engine mountings so it is understandable why he concluded that it is probably another P3 chassis and not that of a replica of a P3/P4 that the chassis actually is.
Edited by Elex on Friday 15th May 06:10
![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/5f0QgNb7.png[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/DGZKd440" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/DGZKd440.png[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/cSeMoxEl" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/cSeMoxEl.png)
BelfastBoy said:
Elex can confirm but there's a hugely informative document online about the Glickenhaus car here, including loads of photos:
http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/project...
Much of the information contained in the Glickenhaus 0846 document has been disproved. I'm afraid it's full of misquotation, misinformation and misinterpretation. http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/project...
Along with a minor weld on the RHS and a slightly different diameter tube on the LHS, the engine mountings are the main feature that Mr Glickenhaus claimed identified his chassis as the original 0846. Unfortunately Ferrari would never have used the method used on the Glickenhaus chassis to mount the P4 engine to a P3 chassis as its rigidity is compromised by the use of bolt on adaptors. The genuine 0846 had new and geometrically correct tubing at the rear of the chassis to accept the different positioning of the engine mountings of the P4 engine. The engine mountings would have been placed at the central point of the meeting of the multiple tubes of the chassis for maximum torsional rigidity, NOT OFFSET by the use of bolt on adaptors as they are on the Glickenhaus chassis, where the rigidity is compromised.
The below statement from Ing. Forghieri, who actually designed and oversaw the build of P3/4 0846, is absolute proof that the Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 chassis is NOT the original 0846 that won Daytona in 1967.
"The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."
Although it is a fabulous recreation, as far as I and many other informed people are concerned, this is the final nail in the coffin to the claim that Glickenhaus/Piper chassis #0003 is Ferrari #0846.
Edited by Elex on Friday 20th June 02:12
Even after Ing. Forghieri's email regarding the engine mountings of Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 chassis proving it is not the original 0846 that won Daytona, here is Mr Glickenhaus himself still claiming it is. He has some truly fabulous genuine cars including one of my all time favourites, Ferrari 412P 0854. Why and how he continues to claim this replica chassis is the original 0846 is just beyond me.
See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6qpq7hyQlY&fe...
See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6qpq7hyQlY&fe...
Edited by Elex on Friday 27th June 00:05
Napolis said:
Chris wasn't hit by a flying wheel.
Ferrari in writing has confirmed in writing several times to several different people that 0846's chassis was not destroyed but was scrapped.
Piper has stated under penalty of law that "003" chassis was built to P4 blueprints given to him by Enzo Ferrari. It's good to see that MF is still able to recognize that it's not.
Talk to one of the guys who recently worked with MF regarding his current capabilities and memory on the 815 which he also designed many years ago. The word he used to me was "fiasco".
9/11 happened
Lady Gaga does not have a penis.
Ferrari has continuously published in their sole descression on a website copyrighted solely by them for over 12 years that I have owned 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 since July 2000.
You claimed that the engine mountings on your chassis identified it as the original 330 P3/4 #0846 whereas in fact what they do, by the way they have been executed, is identify it as a replica, which is how it was described by David Piper, and how you bought it from him. Ferrari in writing has confirmed in writing several times to several different people that 0846's chassis was not destroyed but was scrapped.
Piper has stated under penalty of law that "003" chassis was built to P4 blueprints given to him by Enzo Ferrari. It's good to see that MF is still able to recognize that it's not.
Talk to one of the guys who recently worked with MF regarding his current capabilities and memory on the 815 which he also designed many years ago. The word he used to me was "fiasco".
9/11 happened
Lady Gaga does not have a penis.
Ferrari has continuously published in their sole descression on a website copyrighted solely by them for over 12 years that I have owned 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 since July 2000.
Ferrari would never have used the method to bolt a P4 engine to a P3 chassis as has been done on your car in a million years. The engine mountings on your chassis compromise the rigidity of the structure.
Please show some respect instead of disrespect for Ing. Forghieri. It's time to concede that your chassis is NOT the original 330 P3/4 0846 that won the 1967 Daytona 24 Hours race. There would be no shame in that. You do have some truly wonderful cars.
Edited by Elex on Tuesday 1st July 22:05
Napolis said:
Ferrari has continuously published in their sole descression on a website copyrighted solely by them for over 12 years that I have owned 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 since July 2000.
Ferrari have published nothing. This has been discussed on FerrarChat. They may have placed the info that YOU sent them for your entertainment only on a private part of the Ferrari site, but we only have your word for this anyway. You would be the only one who would see that information and nobody else as access is password protected. Ferrari most definitely have not "published" meaning they have made the information available to the public/populus that you own Ferrari P3/4 0846. Please let us know where it has been published. The only person who has published that you own Ferrari P3/4 0846 is YOU, Jim Glickenhaus. What Ferrari actually did was tell you to use your best endeavors to make the press aware that your car is NOT the original 0846 but you defied them and did the complete opposite and told everybody that your car IS the original 0846. Well, it's not and Ing. Forghieri's statement proves it.
Edited by Elex on Monday 7th July 22:12
Napolis said:
This troll has been banned from Ferrari Chat and his threads have been deleted from Ferrari Life.
He posts things that he himself in writing admits aren't true.
"Ferrari have published nothing."
The document on p45c.com,years ago made public the email Ferrari sent me explaining the procedures they were using to investigate whether or not to publish on their Web site clearly bearing the sole copyright Ferrari S.p.A., in their sole descression, noting that they had to be very careful as my car was a special case, the clear fact that I am the owner of Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 and have been since 2000. The page that Ferrari Published that fact after following the procedure Ferrari outlined in their email to me was posted on Ferrari Chat years ago. This troll recently posted on another web page that "my word" is the only proof of that, clearly purposefully stating something that he knows is untrue and he has previously publically acknowledged by very clearly posting, referencing that specific email to me from Ferrari "Who am I to argue with Ferrari."
His reckless disregard for the truth is once again Memorialized.
As for MF.
Chris wasn't hit by a flying wheel.
Period Photos of MM's clearly show that what MF claims Ferrari would never do Ferrari in fact did on other cars where they changed engine dimensions.
MF "chassis was destroyed"
Not true as Ferrari Clearly stated in the following. This was before 2000 when I began the legal process that caused them to publish the fact that I am the current owner of Ferrari P 3/4 0846 and have been since 2000:
Ferrari's response through communications with Ferrari historian and Cavallino contributor Keith Bluemel was as follows:
"Burned at Le Mans 1967 - The car was returned to Maranello. Bodywork: Almost completely destroyed. Right side distribution system and fuel tank burned. Disassembled all the mechanical components and sent the chassis to customer service department for eventual use. There is nothing to say that the car has been sold and for Ferrari a car with the chassis number 0846 does not exist."
On Ferrari Chat years ago Nathan proved beyond the shadow on any doubt with a photo David provided him that David did not understand the difference between a P3 and a P4 chassis and that David's stating under penalty of law that the chassis he sold me was "P4 built using blueprints Enzo Ferrari" was not true.
Once again this troll goes on ignore so I will not be seeing anything he posts here and once again if anyone thinks anything he posts is deserving of an answer and has not been previously asked and answered many,many times let me know and I will respond.
Cheers
Wikipedia:
0846 the only P3/4 was originally built early in 1966 as a P3 by Ferrari. It was modified in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine and it's wheelbase was decreased P3 2412mm to P4 2400mm.[7] It retained its P3 nose and chassis and vestigial P3 engine mounts becoming a P 3/4. This vehicle was damaged in an accident at Le Mans and was discarded by Ferrari.[8] Recently, many components of the original P3/4 0846 including it's original P 3/4 chassis have resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast James Glickenhaus, a former movie director and stock exchange magnate. Although both he and David Piper (from whom he acquired the car) thought it one of three replica P4 chassis constructed with the blessing of Enzo Ferrari in the mid 70ies from Factory P4 Chassis Blueprints given to David Piper by Enzo Ferrari, a recent "Death Bed Statement" of Tom Meade's confirms that Tom Meade bought, Directly From Enzo Ferrari, in the early 70ies, Ferrari P 3/4 0846's original fire damaged chassis which had been put in the Ferrari Factory Scrap Yard after 0846's accident at Le Mans in 1967 and later sold 0846's original P 3/4 chassis to the original chassis maker who repaired and sold it, unbeknownst to David Piper, who thought the original chassis maker was making three new P4 Chassis from the original P4 chassis blueprints Enzo Ferrari gave to him. 0846's Original P3/4 Chassis is different from, and can not be made from P4 Blueprints. [9] Nearly all of the tube frame chassis and other components from the original wrecked P3/4 0846 are part the car owned by James Glickenhaus today.[10] This discovery has stirred debate. The Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 Chassis modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutineering marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. P3/4 0846 was road tested by Car and Driver magazine.[11]
Since 2002, Ferrari S.p.A. has continuously published the fact on their official web site Ferrari.com Copyrighted by Ferrari S.p.A,in the owners section, in Ferrari S.p.A's sole discretion, that Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper. The legal identity of this particular car that James Glickenhaus has owned since July 2000 as published by Ferrari S.p.A. on their copyrighted web site was established when James Glickenhaus informed Ferrari S.p.A. that he was registering this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 Chassis 0846 with US Motor Vehicle Authorities in 2000 and if Ferrari believed this was not true that they had the duty to act within a two year period which they did not. "The common law doctrine of estoppel by acquiescence is applied when one party gives legal notice to a second party of a fact or claim, and the second party fails to challenge or refute that claim within a reasonable time. The second party is said to have acquiesced to the claim, and is estopped from later challenging it, or making a counterclaim. The doctrine is similar to, and often applied with, estoppel by laches."
I am not a troll. Yes, I have been banned from FerrariChat because I questioned the authenticity of the Glickenhaus chassis being the original 0846. Mr Glickenhaus would not answer my questions regarding misquotations and misinterpretations he had made on FerrariChat and in his 0846 pdf document. Rather than answer my questions he decided not to post on FerrariChat any more. In an attempt to get him to return, some of the pro Glickenhaus moderators decided to ban me. The ban was not supported by the owner of the site, Rob Lay and a number of other moderators.He posts things that he himself in writing admits aren't true.
"Ferrari have published nothing."
The document on p45c.com,years ago made public the email Ferrari sent me explaining the procedures they were using to investigate whether or not to publish on their Web site clearly bearing the sole copyright Ferrari S.p.A., in their sole descression, noting that they had to be very careful as my car was a special case, the clear fact that I am the owner of Ferrari P 3/4 chassis 0846 and have been since 2000. The page that Ferrari Published that fact after following the procedure Ferrari outlined in their email to me was posted on Ferrari Chat years ago. This troll recently posted on another web page that "my word" is the only proof of that, clearly purposefully stating something that he knows is untrue and he has previously publically acknowledged by very clearly posting, referencing that specific email to me from Ferrari "Who am I to argue with Ferrari."
His reckless disregard for the truth is once again Memorialized.
As for MF.
Chris wasn't hit by a flying wheel.
Period Photos of MM's clearly show that what MF claims Ferrari would never do Ferrari in fact did on other cars where they changed engine dimensions.
MF "chassis was destroyed"
Not true as Ferrari Clearly stated in the following. This was before 2000 when I began the legal process that caused them to publish the fact that I am the current owner of Ferrari P 3/4 0846 and have been since 2000:
Ferrari's response through communications with Ferrari historian and Cavallino contributor Keith Bluemel was as follows:
"Burned at Le Mans 1967 - The car was returned to Maranello. Bodywork: Almost completely destroyed. Right side distribution system and fuel tank burned. Disassembled all the mechanical components and sent the chassis to customer service department for eventual use. There is nothing to say that the car has been sold and for Ferrari a car with the chassis number 0846 does not exist."
On Ferrari Chat years ago Nathan proved beyond the shadow on any doubt with a photo David provided him that David did not understand the difference between a P3 and a P4 chassis and that David's stating under penalty of law that the chassis he sold me was "P4 built using blueprints Enzo Ferrari" was not true.
Once again this troll goes on ignore so I will not be seeing anything he posts here and once again if anyone thinks anything he posts is deserving of an answer and has not been previously asked and answered many,many times let me know and I will respond.
Cheers
Wikipedia:
0846 the only P3/4 was originally built early in 1966 as a P3 by Ferrari. It was modified in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine and it's wheelbase was decreased P3 2412mm to P4 2400mm.[7] It retained its P3 nose and chassis and vestigial P3 engine mounts becoming a P 3/4. This vehicle was damaged in an accident at Le Mans and was discarded by Ferrari.[8] Recently, many components of the original P3/4 0846 including it's original P 3/4 chassis have resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast James Glickenhaus, a former movie director and stock exchange magnate. Although both he and David Piper (from whom he acquired the car) thought it one of three replica P4 chassis constructed with the blessing of Enzo Ferrari in the mid 70ies from Factory P4 Chassis Blueprints given to David Piper by Enzo Ferrari, a recent "Death Bed Statement" of Tom Meade's confirms that Tom Meade bought, Directly From Enzo Ferrari, in the early 70ies, Ferrari P 3/4 0846's original fire damaged chassis which had been put in the Ferrari Factory Scrap Yard after 0846's accident at Le Mans in 1967 and later sold 0846's original P 3/4 chassis to the original chassis maker who repaired and sold it, unbeknownst to David Piper, who thought the original chassis maker was making three new P4 Chassis from the original P4 chassis blueprints Enzo Ferrari gave to him. 0846's Original P3/4 Chassis is different from, and can not be made from P4 Blueprints. [9] Nearly all of the tube frame chassis and other components from the original wrecked P3/4 0846 are part the car owned by James Glickenhaus today.[10] This discovery has stirred debate. The Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 Chassis modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutineering marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. P3/4 0846 was road tested by Car and Driver magazine.[11]
Since 2002, Ferrari S.p.A. has continuously published the fact on their official web site Ferrari.com Copyrighted by Ferrari S.p.A,in the owners section, in Ferrari S.p.A's sole discretion, that Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper. The legal identity of this particular car that James Glickenhaus has owned since July 2000 as published by Ferrari S.p.A. on their copyrighted web site was established when James Glickenhaus informed Ferrari S.p.A. that he was registering this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 Chassis 0846 with US Motor Vehicle Authorities in 2000 and if Ferrari believed this was not true that they had the duty to act within a two year period which they did not. "The common law doctrine of estoppel by acquiescence is applied when one party gives legal notice to a second party of a fact or claim, and the second party fails to challenge or refute that claim within a reasonable time. The second party is said to have acquiesced to the claim, and is estopped from later challenging it, or making a counterclaim. The doctrine is similar to, and often applied with, estoppel by laches."
Edited by Napolis on Sunday 13th July 15:56
After leaving FerrariChat Mr Glickenhaus then started posting on the web site FerrariLife. They were glad to have him as a contributor. I then received the reply to my questions that I sent to Mauro Forghieri which proves the Glickenhaus chassis is not 0846. All I posted was exactly the same as I have done in the first post of this thread. I was immediately banned and my post was removed. FerrariLife are not interested in the truth. They would rather have Jim Glickenhaus as a contributor, with his misinformation, than somebody who posts the truth. They banned me for posting proof from Ing. Forghieri that the Glickenhaus chassis is not 0846.
My findings and beliefs regarding the engine mountings on the Glickenhaus chassis proving it is not the original 0846 were confirmed by my correspondence with Ing. Mauro Forghieri. The email to me from Ing. Forghieri has been authenticated by one of Mr Glickenhaus's supporters, Peter Skudder.
Informed readers with even basic knowledge of the history of Ferrari will know that Ing. Forghieri designed and oversaw the build of the original 0846. After Enzo Ferrari himself, Ing. Forghieri is the most important contributor to the success of Ferrari in its entire history.
The Glickenhaus 0846 pdf has been proved to be full of misinformation. Regarding the Wikipedia page on 0846, now who do you think wrote that?????
Edited by Elex on Sunday 13th July 21:40
Silent1 said:
Elex, what do you want to get out of this?
It's a pointless fight, it doesn't affect you in any material way yet you're coming across as massively involved in trying to prove some kind of fraud, you posted this topic twice trying to get jim to bite and congratulations you did, but apart from that what have you done except act like an angry monkey throwing poo at the wall?
Just move on, it's really not a big deal, at the end of the day it's an old car, not some panacea to the worlds ills that's being hidden away.
Let me tell you what I get out of this: I am passionate about the history of Ferrari and it sickens me that that history is being distorted by Mr Glickenhaus claiming that his replica is the original 0846. The link below by Road & Track is just one example where the Piper/Glickenhaus chassis is being stated as 0846 which is of course total BS. If I can inform people of the true facts then I admit to taking pleasure from that.It's a pointless fight, it doesn't affect you in any material way yet you're coming across as massively involved in trying to prove some kind of fraud, you posted this topic twice trying to get jim to bite and congratulations you did, but apart from that what have you done except act like an angry monkey throwing poo at the wall?
Just move on, it's really not a big deal, at the end of the day it's an old car, not some panacea to the worlds ills that's being hidden away.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-videos/ferrari-330...
Butter Face said:
Just seen Jim Glickenhaus on the Discovery channel, was it this car they said is 'the first road going Ferarri' that he owns??
The Glickenhaus car that he claims is the original 0846 is the one in the link below.How he has the gall to go up in front of the crowd at Daytona with this car and tell them it's the original 0846 that won the 24 Hours race there in 1967 beggars belief.
Note how he says that he had owned the car for 15 years yet he didn't buy the replica from David Piper until the year 2000 and this video was made at least 3 years ago. Also the original 0846 never raced at Spa and was never raced by Jackie Stewart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb99JKo08JU
dinkel said:
John Hindhaugh knows his stuff. Maybe ask him?
Mauro Forghieri is the highest authority on the Ferrari P cars. He designed and oversaw the build of all of them including P3/4 0846. There is no need to ask anyone else. The case should now be closed and the Glickenhaus car relegated to the Recreation & Non Period Rebodies section of FerrariChat forthwith.Napolis said:
Nice seeing some of you in Monterey. In response to MF I had a nice
exchange with him and in writing he confirmed "To be perfectly clear"
that his department sent damaged no longer needed chassis' to the scrap yard
and did NOT physically destroy them. This dovetails exactly with Tom Meade's clear statement that he bought the original chassis of 0846 from Enzo Ferrari from Ferrari's scrap yard as per the PDF. After being shown THE entire PDF MF also stated in writing that the P 3/4 chassis modifications currently on my car today could "Of course" been done by Ferrari.
Cross is a wonderful thing.
In his email to me, posted in its entirety in the first post of this thread, which has been verified as being authentic by one of your biggest supporters, Peter Skudder (PSk on FerrariChat), Mauro Forghieri said:exchange with him and in writing he confirmed "To be perfectly clear"
that his department sent damaged no longer needed chassis' to the scrap yard
and did NOT physically destroy them. This dovetails exactly with Tom Meade's clear statement that he bought the original chassis of 0846 from Enzo Ferrari from Ferrari's scrap yard as per the PDF. After being shown THE entire PDF MF also stated in writing that the P 3/4 chassis modifications currently on my car today could "Of course" been done by Ferrari.
Cross is a wonderful thing.
"Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."
So please post the FULL written statement/exchange in its entirety with no omissions from Mauro Forghieri to yourself. Thank you.
Edited by Elex on Friday 22 August 22:28
In the interest of full disclosure to eliminate the risk of misinterpretation, statements being misunderstood and taken out of context, below is the entire content of my email with no omissions that that Ing. Forghieri responded to:
"FAO: Ing. Mauro Forghieri.
From: Steven Robertson.
Dear Ing. Forghieri,
Re: Ferrari 330 P3/4 #0846.
I hope you don’t mind me contacting you. I am a huge fan of your work and hold you in the highest possible esteem. The Ferrari Prototypes you designed are pure works of art and the most beautiful cars ever made. I would be extremely grateful if you would be kind enough to answer a question regarding Ferrari 330 P3/4 #0846.
When it was transformed from P3 specification to P4 specification for the 1967 racing season, were the P3 tipo 216B engine mounting chassis tubes removed and replaced with new chassis tubes to match the new positioning of the P4 tipo 237 engine mountings leaving only one set of engine mountings for the P4 or were additional engine mountings added to the existing P3 chassis tubes so that the frame had 2 sets of mountings for P3 and P4 engines?
Please see the attached pictures of the engine mountings of a chassis that claims to be P3/4 #0846. The way the P4 engine mountings have been added does not look like your work as the engine mountings are not in the optimum position for maximum rigidity of the chassis. I may be totally wrong as I am not an engineer so maybe the way the mountings are placed is actually satisfactory.
Would you please be kind enough to let me know if the chassis in the pictures is that of Ferrari 330 P3/4 0846? I would be extremely grateful for your assistance, Ing. Forghieri. I thank you very much for your kind attention and hope very much that you will be able to assist and look forward very much to your reply.
Thank you again.
With kind regards,
Yours sincerely,
Steven Robertson.
3 Attached Images"
Below is Ing. Forghieri's response:
"Dear Mr.Robertson
I will say what I remember of so old days.In 1966 we design the 330 P3-0846. This car take part at the 12 h of Sebring number 27 drivers Parkes Bondurant. I like to make clear that P3 and P4 are from aerodinamic point of view very close.The draft was done by the technical bureau of Ferrari racing DPT. MR Drogo had nothing to do with the cars of Ferrari racing departement. The 330 P3 spyder was modified at the end of 1966 in a new P4 with the new 3 valve engine,curved intakes with injection,new Ferrari gearbox, minor modifications to the chassis with 2400 wheelbase.The modest wheelbase was thanks to the good aereodinamic stability developed at the aereodinamic wind tunnel in Stutgart.
This prototipe was the test car for private test(first in Ferrari History) in Daytona December 1966. The 0846.P4 spyder was used in the following races 1967:
Daytona 24 h winner Amon-Bandini n.23
Targa Florio Vaccarella -Scarfiotti
Le Mans 67 Amon-Vaccarella
Amon was hit by a flying wheel and the car caught fire and was badly damaged. The car was discarted by Ferrari and the chassis was destroyed. The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount. Your chassis is a P3 arranged by some body to accept the P4 engine and the correct wheelbase 2400.
I hope to have been of some help.
Kind regards
Mauro Forghieri"
Also in the interest of full disclosure to eliminate the risk of misinterpretation, statements being misunderstood and taken out of context, please would Mr Glickenhaus post the full content of the exchanges of messages with no omissions between himself and Ing. Forghieri. Thank you in advance.
"FAO: Ing. Mauro Forghieri.
From: Steven Robertson.
Dear Ing. Forghieri,
Re: Ferrari 330 P3/4 #0846.
I hope you don’t mind me contacting you. I am a huge fan of your work and hold you in the highest possible esteem. The Ferrari Prototypes you designed are pure works of art and the most beautiful cars ever made. I would be extremely grateful if you would be kind enough to answer a question regarding Ferrari 330 P3/4 #0846.
When it was transformed from P3 specification to P4 specification for the 1967 racing season, were the P3 tipo 216B engine mounting chassis tubes removed and replaced with new chassis tubes to match the new positioning of the P4 tipo 237 engine mountings leaving only one set of engine mountings for the P4 or were additional engine mountings added to the existing P3 chassis tubes so that the frame had 2 sets of mountings for P3 and P4 engines?
Please see the attached pictures of the engine mountings of a chassis that claims to be P3/4 #0846. The way the P4 engine mountings have been added does not look like your work as the engine mountings are not in the optimum position for maximum rigidity of the chassis. I may be totally wrong as I am not an engineer so maybe the way the mountings are placed is actually satisfactory.
Would you please be kind enough to let me know if the chassis in the pictures is that of Ferrari 330 P3/4 0846? I would be extremely grateful for your assistance, Ing. Forghieri. I thank you very much for your kind attention and hope very much that you will be able to assist and look forward very much to your reply.
Thank you again.
With kind regards,
Yours sincerely,
Steven Robertson.
3 Attached Images"
Below is Ing. Forghieri's response:
"Dear Mr.Robertson
I will say what I remember of so old days.In 1966 we design the 330 P3-0846. This car take part at the 12 h of Sebring number 27 drivers Parkes Bondurant. I like to make clear that P3 and P4 are from aerodinamic point of view very close.The draft was done by the technical bureau of Ferrari racing DPT. MR Drogo had nothing to do with the cars of Ferrari racing departement. The 330 P3 spyder was modified at the end of 1966 in a new P4 with the new 3 valve engine,curved intakes with injection,new Ferrari gearbox, minor modifications to the chassis with 2400 wheelbase.The modest wheelbase was thanks to the good aereodinamic stability developed at the aereodinamic wind tunnel in Stutgart.
This prototipe was the test car for private test(first in Ferrari History) in Daytona December 1966. The 0846.P4 spyder was used in the following races 1967:
Daytona 24 h winner Amon-Bandini n.23
Targa Florio Vaccarella -Scarfiotti
Le Mans 67 Amon-Vaccarella
Amon was hit by a flying wheel and the car caught fire and was badly damaged. The car was discarted by Ferrari and the chassis was destroyed. The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount. Your chassis is a P3 arranged by some body to accept the P4 engine and the correct wheelbase 2400.
I hope to have been of some help.
Kind regards
Mauro Forghieri"
Also in the interest of full disclosure to eliminate the risk of misinterpretation, statements being misunderstood and taken out of context, please would Mr Glickenhaus post the full content of the exchanges of messages with no omissions between himself and Ing. Forghieri. Thank you in advance.
Edited by Elex on Sunday 24th August 23:51
I will ask again:
In the interest of full disclosure to eliminate the risk of misinterpretation, statements being misunderstood and taken out of context, please would Mr Glickenhaus post the full content of the exchanges of messages with no omissions between himself and Ing. Forghieri. Thank you in advance.
In the interest of full disclosure to eliminate the risk of misinterpretation, statements being misunderstood and taken out of context, please would Mr Glickenhaus post the full content of the exchanges of messages with no omissions between himself and Ing. Forghieri. Thank you in advance.
Elex said:
I will ask again:
In the interest of full disclosure to eliminate the risk of misinterpretation, statements being misunderstood and taken out of context, please would Mr Glickenhaus post the full content of the exchanges of messages with no omissions between himself and Ing. Forghieri. Thank you in advance.
....and what did Ing. Forghieri say about the following below from my original post???????? You must have asked for his comments on that as you did my other comments.In the interest of full disclosure to eliminate the risk of misinterpretation, statements being misunderstood and taken out of context, please would Mr Glickenhaus post the full content of the exchanges of messages with no omissions between himself and Ing. Forghieri. Thank you in advance.
"According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is not the original 0846."
Edited by Elex on Tuesday 26th August 06:00
Napolis said:
"According to Mauro Forghieri, chassis 0846 was destroyed after Le Mans '67."
Steve Robertson
>Dear Mr Glickenhaus
I will try to clarify my statement regarding the subiect matter.
It appears that the greatest point of misunderstanding lies in the use of
the words
'scrapped' and 'destroied'.Because I did not,at the time of my answering
Mr Robertson inquiry, have a clear picture of the contention,I failed to
differentiate
between the two words,and may have used them as synoinoms.
Now let me clearly state that,when pieces (or even a whole chassis)where
discarded from our dpt, we did not engage in any activity intended to
phisically destroy it:we merely sent it to the scrap yard,and were no
longer concerned to what happened to it.
Because we are talking of long time ago,when Ferrari memorabilia trading
was not
as developed as it is to day,nobody had much interest in the eventual
destination of wrecks.
Mauro Forghieri
"Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis.
According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications."
Steve Robertson
I cannot of course rule out
that thos
modifications have been carried out elsewhere,perhaps even by another
Ferrari departement.
In the hope to have been of some helps
Have my best
Mauro Forghieri
MF saying that the wrecked 0846 chassis was sent to the scrap yard and not destroyed by his department does not mean that it was not subsequently destroyed in the scrap yard. It merely means that chassis 0846's provable whereabouts ended in the Ferrari scrap yard.Steve Robertson
>Dear Mr Glickenhaus
I will try to clarify my statement regarding the subiect matter.
It appears that the greatest point of misunderstanding lies in the use of
the words
'scrapped' and 'destroied'.Because I did not,at the time of my answering
Mr Robertson inquiry, have a clear picture of the contention,I failed to
differentiate
between the two words,and may have used them as synoinoms.
Now let me clearly state that,when pieces (or even a whole chassis)where
discarded from our dpt, we did not engage in any activity intended to
phisically destroy it:we merely sent it to the scrap yard,and were no
longer concerned to what happened to it.
Because we are talking of long time ago,when Ferrari memorabilia trading
was not
as developed as it is to day,nobody had much interest in the eventual
destination of wrecks.
Mauro Forghieri
"Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis.
According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications."
Steve Robertson
I cannot of course rule out
that thos
modifications have been carried out elsewhere,perhaps even by another
Ferrari departement.
In the hope to have been of some helps
Have my best
Mauro Forghieri
As MF has said that he cannot rule out that the modifications to the Glickenhaus chassis could have been performed elsewhere, perhaps even by another Ferrari department, this means that it could or "perhaps" be an authentic Ferrari chassis, BUT it does mean that it is NOT 0846 as MF again confirms here, as well as in his email to me in the first post in this thread, that he did not perform the modifications to the Glickenhaus chassis.
It is documented in many places, including Mauro Forghieri's recent book "Forghieri on Ferrari 1947 to the present" that 0846 being transformed from 330 P3 to 330 P3/4, the "prototype P4" for the 1967 season and its modifications were very much the work of Mauro Forghieri and his department and NOT another Ferrari department. Ing. Forghieri was given carte blanche by Enzo Ferrari to build a "superlative Ferrari" after losing the championship in 1966.
In conclusion, Mr Glickenhaus has provided more proof from Ing. Forghieri that his chassis is NOT the original Ferrari 0846 that won Daytona in 1967 etc.
Edited by Elex on Wednesday 18th February 10:10
Napolis said:
"But let's look at Forghieri's statement. His initial statement was a pretty unambiguous assertion. However as more facts emerged, he started to "walk back" his original statement. (This is PRECISELY the point of cross examination--to flush out details and contradictions.) And as still more facts emerged, he basically recanted his original statement. Or if you prefer, he shot his own statement so full of holes that it would not hold water.
And then there is his correspondence with Jim.
So, 'if this is the best you got' as a good country lawyer says, then you are sure on thin ice.
At best MF is a weak witness. The reality is that his statements end up in favor of Jim."
Dave Ferrari Chat
"I personally banned miurasv.
Disagreeing with Jim is fine and not believing this car is the chassis of the raced 0846 is fine (notice that others with opposing opinions haven't been moderated?). Having a different opinion to those that believe the story of 0846's rediscovery is not why miurasv was banned. He was a relentless attack dog rehashing previously answered issues on 0846. Long after Jim left the thread, he continued to "call him out", then Jim temporarily stopped posting on this forum and miurasv followed him elsewhere to "call him out" there as well as continuing to do it here. In my judgement, the motivation was not to find the truth, but rather to make his bones as "the man who took down 0846 as a fraud", and others were also prepared to use him as an conduit for questions to attack the car and/or Jim. That he was harassing Jim no matter where Jim might go to avoid him was painfully obvious. While famous folk with famous cars will attract a lot of attention and discussion, a line must be drawn to prevent harassment. FerrariChat.com is not the only online venue to take this position on miurasv and these activities of his were stopped on other sites too.
If that's not enough justification for you, here's some more:
He was spamming our site with the entire inventories of dealers that he didn't work for in order to try to impress them for a job (he was even spamming the Facebook pages of these dealers with images of cars they were not selling), and he then shilled directly on the forum for a dealer that was passing him links to cars. Much of his spam was removed by our moderator team, including me. He didn't take up sponsorship as a professional broker but presented adverts on the forum as one (some still in FerrariAds, some removed from elsewhere on the forum) and profile was essentially one big advertisement for his commercial services - have a look: miurasv. I personally exchanged messages with him over a few months, trying to nudge him in the right direction, but obviously that strategy was unsuccessful. So much of what he did on this site was not for the joy of cars but for personal gain.
The ending story of miurasv was: agenda agenda agenda - he was toxic to this forum and our membership, constantly looking for ways to circumvent sponsorship rules and promote either himself, dealers he was loosely associated with, or dealers he wanted to be associated with. He irritated a great many people across the forum, huge numbers had him on their ignore lists, and quite a few privately expressed appreciation when he was finally shown the door.
Those who know me should also know that I am amongst the first to apologise hat in hand when I realise I've made a mistake, but that ban is not an error. The long overdue ban of miurasv was an appropriate action for many reasons, is justified half a dozen times over, and I will not apologise for it or overturn it.
Sincerely Andrew FerrariChat"
The the entire 0846 thread is still on Ferrari Chat MF's quoted words under cross examination speak for themselves.
There is libelous content in Andrew's (Neurobeaker) post above. I have been contacted by a very highly regarded lawyer and advised to take legal action against him so I will not comment on it here.And then there is his correspondence with Jim.
So, 'if this is the best you got' as a good country lawyer says, then you are sure on thin ice.
At best MF is a weak witness. The reality is that his statements end up in favor of Jim."
Dave Ferrari Chat
"I personally banned miurasv.
Disagreeing with Jim is fine and not believing this car is the chassis of the raced 0846 is fine (notice that others with opposing opinions haven't been moderated?). Having a different opinion to those that believe the story of 0846's rediscovery is not why miurasv was banned. He was a relentless attack dog rehashing previously answered issues on 0846. Long after Jim left the thread, he continued to "call him out", then Jim temporarily stopped posting on this forum and miurasv followed him elsewhere to "call him out" there as well as continuing to do it here. In my judgement, the motivation was not to find the truth, but rather to make his bones as "the man who took down 0846 as a fraud", and others were also prepared to use him as an conduit for questions to attack the car and/or Jim. That he was harassing Jim no matter where Jim might go to avoid him was painfully obvious. While famous folk with famous cars will attract a lot of attention and discussion, a line must be drawn to prevent harassment. FerrariChat.com is not the only online venue to take this position on miurasv and these activities of his were stopped on other sites too.
If that's not enough justification for you, here's some more:
He was spamming our site with the entire inventories of dealers that he didn't work for in order to try to impress them for a job (he was even spamming the Facebook pages of these dealers with images of cars they were not selling), and he then shilled directly on the forum for a dealer that was passing him links to cars. Much of his spam was removed by our moderator team, including me. He didn't take up sponsorship as a professional broker but presented adverts on the forum as one (some still in FerrariAds, some removed from elsewhere on the forum) and profile was essentially one big advertisement for his commercial services - have a look: miurasv. I personally exchanged messages with him over a few months, trying to nudge him in the right direction, but obviously that strategy was unsuccessful. So much of what he did on this site was not for the joy of cars but for personal gain.
The ending story of miurasv was: agenda agenda agenda - he was toxic to this forum and our membership, constantly looking for ways to circumvent sponsorship rules and promote either himself, dealers he was loosely associated with, or dealers he wanted to be associated with. He irritated a great many people across the forum, huge numbers had him on their ignore lists, and quite a few privately expressed appreciation when he was finally shown the door.
Those who know me should also know that I am amongst the first to apologise hat in hand when I realise I've made a mistake, but that ban is not an error. The long overdue ban of miurasv was an appropriate action for many reasons, is justified half a dozen times over, and I will not apologise for it or overturn it.
Sincerely Andrew FerrariChat"
The the entire 0846 thread is still on Ferrari Chat MF's quoted words under cross examination speak for themselves.
The information alleged to be by Ing. Forghieri that Mr Glickenhaus has posted has not been authenticated. It should be totally disregarded. Even if correct the dialogue between Mr Glickenhaus and Ing. Forghieri has not been posted in its entirety therefore the posted quotes can take on entirely different and incorrect meanings. They do not end up in favour of Jim at all. If correct, the posted quotes only prove that Ing. Forghieri did not carry out the modifications on the Glickenhaus chassis thus proving that it is not 0846. Mr Glickenhaus has been asked to post the full written exchange between him and Ing. Forghieri with no omissions on numerous occasions but he has yet again failed to do so.
That Ing. Forghieri's department did not destroy the chassis of the original 0846 does not mean that it was not destroyed in the Ferrari scrap yard or elsewhere at a later date. It means that its provable whereabouts ends there. Fact.
Edited by Elex on Wednesday 18th March 08:39
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