Are Mclarens Mileage Sensitive ?
Discussion
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
Wow 43,000 miles in 2 1/2 years. Fair play to the owner (s) but seems way overpriced to others out there at sub 10k miles. Would of thought it would struggle to sell at £99,995 with that mileage unless £100k is the bottom line for any MP4 12C.
Not looking to buy it I must add but just perusing the ads doing some research with a 12C spider or 650S spider in mind for the new year.
Other half has tired of the scud, as I knew she would, fed up with everyone gawping at us in the Lambo, thinks the F355 wiffs of old man ????? so now SHE wants something more classy.
Guess that leaves me with Aston Martin DBS or a McLaren as the options
Slickhillsy said:
ALREADY????? But I thought it was a sure fire thing this time next year Rodney all Scud owners will be milwionaires and a keeper? 
We bought in about the same time and I think the Scud is epicly brilliant and in my mind a keeper...
No plans to sell the Scud ! That's my toy and TBH I prefer she doesn't come out in it as she is a nervous NerrisWe bought in about the same time and I think the Scud is epicly brilliant and in my mind a keeper...
Ok its me footing the bill but always happy to go along with her suggestion of any car additions as opposed to kids or kitchens
Jules360 said:
I seem to recall you mentioning once or twice that the Lambo was a 4th car. The 355 is one, what are the other 2 ? Can she not make do with them ?
Got 5 bl00dy cars now and stable has rapidly grown but don't really count the 2 daily drivers as they are not supercars like the Scud, F355 and Lambo. I prefer sports cars to GT's or Tourers but maybe a DBS would be different for a change.
Got to get garage extension completed first and 6 cars is the limit so need to choose wisely and one will have to go if/when I get into a speciale which is probably the ultimate goal hence why I haven't currently gone away from a 458 spider
With the first 650 S spiders appearing on the used car market at sub £200k now and the majority of 12C spiders at £150-£170k whats peoples general view on the price gap versus overall car ?
Personally I love the new P1 style front end and thought it was a bit bland on the 12C and only thing letting the car down visually. That, with the upgraded performance and standard carbon ceramic brakes makes me think the 650 S is the better buy although circa £40k more
Anyone had both and would share those thoughts ? Are 12C spiders likely to be rare in the future due to the limited production run ?
Personally I love the new P1 style front end and thought it was a bit bland on the 12C and only thing letting the car down visually. That, with the upgraded performance and standard carbon ceramic brakes makes me think the 650 S is the better buy although circa £40k more
Anyone had both and would share those thoughts ? Are 12C spiders likely to be rare in the future due to the limited production run ?
Ballistic said:
A trader recently offered me that 43k car for a figure substantially less than what it's being advertised for.
Its a hell of a lot of performance for under £100k regardless of mileage. I would imagine these things are really well engineered given Ron Dennis's obsession with perfection.Having read and watched some reviews on the 650S spider tonight it seems its worth spending the extra dough given the seemingly massive improvements over the 12C.
Anyone know what sort of deals can be had on delivery mileage cars or brand new ones ?
TP321 said:
A 650S Spider will be slightly better than a 12C Spider, but not enough to justify the £40k price difference, especially when you consider that the 650S has an awful lot of depreciating to do. As for any 12C coupe for £110k - that's surely a no brainer.
Steve Sutcliffes Autocar 650S review suggested it was well worth the £40k price differential. Especially if you compare it with say a 458 being twice the price of a F430.People don't view the 650S as a new model as its the same overall shape, engine etc as 12 C but apparently 25% of the parts are new.
Yes there is depreciation to go on a new 650S but that will have a knock on effect to 12C so I think the gap of £40k will be maintained on the whole because if it got to £20k it would be a no brainer anyway
TP321 said:
Disagree. The 2012 12C coupe has reached its bottom. Even a 2013 12C Spyder at £160k has more depreciation to come - it will not be £40k more than a 2012 12C Coupe in a year or two down the line - £20k maybe. As for the 650S, its just in most peoples mind a facelifted 12C. In a few years time, the new P13 will be out, as will a super dooper 650R (Racing). This will all impact on the price of the current £220k price of a 650S. Remember and be warned that 12C coupes were once £210k.......
You can't honestly believe a 2012 12C has not got anymore depreciation to come if everything else above it, 12 C spider,650s coupe & spider continue to depreciate and then the the new P13 hits the whole McLaren market.The 12 C isn't going to appreciate and be collectable like a limited edition Ferrari. I think it may find its base price like early gallardos but I don't think that is now or £120k. Reckon it will be late £80 early £90k car in 3 years
TP321 said:
A 2004 Gallardo is £60k. Thats an ancient car, with a manual gearbox. The 12C is an F22-Raptor in comparison!! Yes it will depreciate, but not by £10kpa from NOW on. But assuming that you are right, and that in 3 years time a 2012 Coupe is £90k, what do you think a 650S will be worth?? My guess is £110-120k - so there you have it - £100k depreciation on a 650S in 3 years time. Because in 3 years time, the differences between a 12C and a 650 will be irrelevant as the car world will have moved on massively.
Residual is driven by supply and demand and unfortunately that's the battle the McLaren brand has coupled with a weak dealer network for used car disposal.Its a very niche brand / product and being technology based the latest and best is always going to be the appeal and yesterdays car will suffer with big depreciation.
I think they are fantastic value for money, hence why considering used and if its a keeper the residual is irrelevant but its not the sort of car I would really want to own for a year or two as the gap between buying and selling through a dealer will be north of £20k for sure and I think you could even be lucky escaping with £30k loss in that period unless you have bought it right in the first place. Trade bids on the car are mental
mb1 said:
Totally right. Prices are driven by supply and demand. Well, try to find a 12C in a spec that meet your requirements and you will soon realise it is near impossible.
From a distance it looks like there are quite a few cars available but they are all very different in specs and colours.
So buyers (like me a couple of months ago) actually don't have that much choice and need to act fast to secure a car they like.
So cars can stay for quite while but they do go and dealers are usually patient, waiting for the right buyer.
The McLaren approved dealers are actually quite good at shifting cars. Independents struggle because they charge the same amount of money. Hence taking more time to shift their cars.
But we are now already in December and until March, the number of cars available will go up. And then dry up again to a minimum like every year.
The 12C is 99% the car that the 650S is. And to me has a more timeless design. In a few years from now, the ugly duckling face of the 650S (my son's words, not mine) will be outdated and only the 12C will be remembered as McLaren foray into Ferrari territory. And what an attempt !
I think P13 will help build the value of the 12C and 650S. It will be about 100k. But the 12C will be more desirable and better performance.
Getting close to 10k miles on mine. More then 1k mile per month at the moment. What a car
I think having an entry model P13 underpinning the 12C may help depending on how its positioned. A bit like the Porsche cayman v 911 they may have to engineer it down so as not to be to good and close to the 12 C.From a distance it looks like there are quite a few cars available but they are all very different in specs and colours.
So buyers (like me a couple of months ago) actually don't have that much choice and need to act fast to secure a car they like.
So cars can stay for quite while but they do go and dealers are usually patient, waiting for the right buyer.
The McLaren approved dealers are actually quite good at shifting cars. Independents struggle because they charge the same amount of money. Hence taking more time to shift their cars.
But we are now already in December and until March, the number of cars available will go up. And then dry up again to a minimum like every year.
The 12C is 99% the car that the 650S is. And to me has a more timeless design. In a few years from now, the ugly duckling face of the 650S (my son's words, not mine) will be outdated and only the 12C will be remembered as McLaren foray into Ferrari territory. And what an attempt !
I think P13 will help build the value of the 12C and 650S. It will be about 100k. But the 12C will be more desirable and better performance.
Getting close to 10k miles on mine. More then 1k mile per month at the moment. What a car
Regards the 650S front end I absolutely love it and if its good enough for the P1 .......
I think the front end of the 12C is bland and very safe and only thing letting the car down visually IMHO but then again it may age better because of that.
Yes its a good first attempt into Ferrari territory and a fantastic car but somehow I can't get it out of my mind that its slightly flawed from the outset and never really lived up to the 458.
Watching back all the old experts comparisons on U tube unanimously votes for 458
LukeyLikey said:
12C is a fantastic car. I bought a heavily discounted new spider last November and have done 9,000 miles in it - almost all of them on long distance road trips to Scotland and Europe, with other exotics (Speciale, 458, F12, Aventador etc.) The 12C is probably the fastest point to point on road and is an absolutely remarkable car.
I think the difference between the 12C and 650 is very minimal, except for the ugly front end on the 650 (which is personal taste as mentioned before). Steve Sutcliffe spent the 'press life' of the12C telling us that other people thought it was a bit anodyne but not him - he couldn't decide which was better, the 12C or the 458 and said that both were brilliant. Then the 650 came out and he said 'far better than the 12C' but his publication still placed it behind the 458. Some things journalists say are nonsense and you have to read between the lines a bit.
A used 12C is unbeatable value, but I would personally stick to the Spider because the carbon tub gives a great reason to own the car in Spider form - it has a key advantage over other Spiders and as such, I reckon it will do quite well over the next few years. Not sure how long I will keep mine but it could be quite a while. My wife loves it, even with extremely hard driving.
As for the performance, it is barking mad! It takes a while to get to know the car and you need warm dry conditions to get the thing working really well, but when you get to that point, it is a brilliant experience.
After 9,000 fairly hard miles (although I always take care of my cars) it feels rock solid. Being exotic, a 12C will probably not fare as well as a Porsche in terms of being sensitive to mileage, but being british and fairly solid feeling, I think they will not be as sensitive as Ferraris.
Given what my car cost, I think it is still worth not far away from that figure, even after putting a decent amount of miles on. It is a 2014 late 12C, in decent colour spec and with nice options. About £150k is where I reckon it sits. In 2 years time (3 years old) with about 18k miles - I will slow down a bit and put mileage onto some of my other cars - I don't see it being less than about £125k, around half of list. Not terrible.
An early coupe at £100k with high miles or even £120k for a lower mileage car has to be about as good value as you can get in the used Supercar world right now. You will have an unbelievable car that can go quicker than most other cars and yet will give you a depreciation cost of not more than £5k per year I reckon.
Tell me what modern Supercar will be better value than that?
Yeah I can see a lot of sense in that but you must have had a great deal on the new car in the first place as used 18 mth spiders are between £150 and £165 now and you say at £150 you haven't lost a lot.I think the difference between the 12C and 650 is very minimal, except for the ugly front end on the 650 (which is personal taste as mentioned before). Steve Sutcliffe spent the 'press life' of the12C telling us that other people thought it was a bit anodyne but not him - he couldn't decide which was better, the 12C or the 458 and said that both were brilliant. Then the 650 came out and he said 'far better than the 12C' but his publication still placed it behind the 458. Some things journalists say are nonsense and you have to read between the lines a bit.
A used 12C is unbeatable value, but I would personally stick to the Spider because the carbon tub gives a great reason to own the car in Spider form - it has a key advantage over other Spiders and as such, I reckon it will do quite well over the next few years. Not sure how long I will keep mine but it could be quite a while. My wife loves it, even with extremely hard driving.
As for the performance, it is barking mad! It takes a while to get to know the car and you need warm dry conditions to get the thing working really well, but when you get to that point, it is a brilliant experience.
After 9,000 fairly hard miles (although I always take care of my cars) it feels rock solid. Being exotic, a 12C will probably not fare as well as a Porsche in terms of being sensitive to mileage, but being british and fairly solid feeling, I think they will not be as sensitive as Ferraris.
Given what my car cost, I think it is still worth not far away from that figure, even after putting a decent amount of miles on. It is a 2014 late 12C, in decent colour spec and with nice options. About £150k is where I reckon it sits. In 2 years time (3 years old) with about 18k miles - I will slow down a bit and put mileage onto some of my other cars - I don't see it being less than about £125k, around half of list. Not terrible.
An early coupe at £100k with high miles or even £120k for a lower mileage car has to be about as good value as you can get in the used Supercar world right now. You will have an unbelievable car that can go quicker than most other cars and yet will give you a depreciation cost of not more than £5k per year I reckon.
Tell me what modern Supercar will be better value than that?
Edited by LukeyLikey on Friday 28th November 18:49
Its the spider that is gradually growing on me rather than the coupe but being a Ferrari man and boy I kind of think that spending the extra £30k is always going to return the extra £30k or more on resale.
The McLaren is different and technically better on paper but all these reviews saying the 458 is better and more FUN coupled with depreciation concerns on the Mac is what puts me off.
Do you think that as the 12 C spider drops the equivalent 458 will and the gap be maintained. Not sure the Mac would be a keeper so don't want to take a bath over a short tenure if I get bored quickly
LukeyLikey said:
Hard to say, but you have a Scud, so a 12C is well worth a try - I have had Ferraris too and wouldn't really be without one. The 12C is a different experience to a 458 Spider and worth a go if you're keeping the Scud. On that basis, I don't think the difference in depreciation between the two will be material. Just a guess though. When that day eventually arrives, I don't think you will object if the cost is a bit extra because you wil have enjoyed the differences the McLaren has given to you.
You will surprised at the extra speed in a 12C - it is another level (in fact two other levels) compared to the Scud and the Lambo. If you can drive reasonably well, almost nothing will leave you on the road, including a 650, whereas you will be able to leave most cars behind.
The exclusivity and being different to Ferrari does appeal and maybe the compromise between sports cars and creature comforts for the missus. Just don't like taking a tonking on values as I do chop and change far too often. If it was going to be a keeper like my others it doesn't really matter so much but even still I'm not rich enough to be throwing money away with my stupid car obsession.You will surprised at the extra speed in a 12C - it is another level (in fact two other levels) compared to the Scud and the Lambo. If you can drive reasonably well, almost nothing will leave you on the road, including a 650, whereas you will be able to leave most cars behind.
Strangely enough she loves the 2 yellow ones advertised but I'm not so sure on that. I think a more subtle colour suits the McLaren and is better for resale
br d said:
Very interesting discussion.
I've been looking at the 650s, there are a few cars coming onto the used market now and some of them appear to have tanked a lot. Couple of cars that were 270ish new going for 200's.They possibly may have been press cars but that's a vertiginous drop in 6 months.
I think the whole "must have all the carbon options" thing will mean heavy losses in the first year or so. Mclaren options seem pricey compared to other marques.
Pretty sure the early cars are PRESS cars but even so sub £200k less a DEAL makes them seemingly good value versus 12 Spiders at £170k. In a few years time of low mileage the 8,000 in 1st year will be diluted and the gap to a late 12C may actually widen.I've been looking at the 650s, there are a few cars coming onto the used market now and some of them appear to have tanked a lot. Couple of cars that were 270ish new going for 200's.They possibly may have been press cars but that's a vertiginous drop in 6 months.
I think the whole "must have all the carbon options" thing will mean heavy losses in the first year or so. Mclaren options seem pricey compared to other marques.
That said you can get £40k off a new 650S with a list of £260k. Not sure what this is going to do to help 12C spider residuals
br d said:
I've seen this alluded to a few times now, how are people getting 40k off list? Just a cash offer of "This is what I'm willing to pay"? Has anyone here done this?
That's the deal I was offered on one only yesterday but at this stage I've declined. If that's how they do business and discount on a brand new model car I fear for the residual valueisaldiri said:
My understanding is you can drive a very hard deal on existing stock (which will include delivery mileage cars). Ordering from new to your spec I don't think that kind of deal is possible......yet.
would suggest a good drive in both before you decide unless you're already sold on the looks of the 650. The 650 is a facelifted 12c but it does feel quite different, or at least to me. Much more torque, considerably firmer ride and (rather more of an issue for me) the steering is much faster and imo too shifty with less feel. It is more in line with that of the 458 though.
Is it worth £50k more than a 18 month old 13 plate 12C spider with 7,000 miles ?would suggest a good drive in both before you decide unless you're already sold on the looks of the 650. The 650 is a facelifted 12c but it does feel quite different, or at least to me. Much more torque, considerably firmer ride and (rather more of an issue for me) the steering is much faster and imo too shifty with less feel. It is more in line with that of the 458 though.
LukeyLikey said:
Sat Nav and stereo perfect, really nice fit. Honestly, everything on my car is as it should be - very, very tight. Much more so than a 360, 430, even California (which was also good) and at the level of my 911.
I think the carbon tub is the main reason for it staying as tight as when I first got it.
Sounds to me like you need to drive a few to put your mind at rest but I don't think any reason not to buy one is down to its sturdiness. I think they will fare very well over the long term too.
Driving one tomorrow. Hopefully the weather will be ok to get the roof down as wellI think the carbon tub is the main reason for it staying as tight as when I first got it.
Sounds to me like you need to drive a few to put your mind at rest but I don't think any reason not to buy one is down to its sturdiness. I think they will fare very well over the long term too.
LukeyLikey said:
You won't be able to get the impression of speed that the car can deliver on a test drive but you should get the general idea. I test drove mine last November but the reality with warm roads/tyres is another thing altogether! Be aware that there is a two-stage throttle. For full power you have to push through a sort of 'notch' at the end of the travel. I doubt you will easily get all the torque down at the moment but you can try....!
Ok thanks, don't normally drive mad on public roads in my own car let alone a strange one that belongs to someone else. Drove one briefly 18 mths ago but whilst I knew it was lightening quick I didn't think it was involving or exciting enough and I missed the N/a V8 sound but they have grown on me a bit especially in spider form so I'm willing to give it another go.
Do you ever think you should of spent £30k more and gone for a 458 as everyone I ask within the trade says as good as the McLaren is it is not as much fun as the 458. I like my scud and performante as they are both fun in different ways whereas the 12C struck me as being so accomplished it was too good for its own good
LukeyLikey said:
No, very clear I didn't want a standard 458. I already had a CS in the garage for the n/a mid engined hit (since sold in favour of a Speciale) and a number of friends had 458s which made me think I ought to try something different. Just as well because they upgraded - Aventador, F12, Speciale etc. Felt the need to keep up and was pleased to find I could do at least that.
For a car to do long distance tours, along with my wife, it is brilliant. If you don't have an n/a car in the garage then maybe worth making a different choice, but since you do, I think the 12C really adds to your garage.
The 'normal mode' and massive torque make this car really usable on all sorts of roads.
My aim was to upgrade the Scuderia for a speciale in a couple years time probably if I can wait that long as I'm very impatient and get bored quickly with cars. For a car to do long distance tours, along with my wife, it is brilliant. If you don't have an n/a car in the garage then maybe worth making a different choice, but since you do, I think the 12C really adds to your garage.
The 'normal mode' and massive torque make this car really usable on all sorts of roads.
I specced up a new Speciale but the dealers convinced me to buy the Scuderia first as I had not previously had a striped out racer before. Hopefully the gap may have reduced between the 2 cars in a couple of years, who knows what Scuderia will do next year.
Having always had Ferrari's until the Lambo I've always thought they were the best thing since sliced bread but I think I'm a bit more open minded to alternative brands now and its nice for a change. If I do get a Speciale I think a 12C spider will be a better alternative than a 458 spider otherwise its all too similar. If I keep the Scud instead I'm more inclined to go 458 spider and have a stable of prancing horses.
I think the 12 C spider looks better and technically on paper is better but I just don't get all the reviews and knockers. Hope to make my own mind up by the end of this week all being well
Wow, I'm lost for words.....
Ok so you can all stop cheering now !
What a car(s). Drove both 12 C Spider and 650S. The 12C spider was better than I remember it from about a year ago just a little disappointed with the sound track from the sports exhaust although for a turbo car it wasn't bad just not a Ferrari V8 scream. Boy is it quick and refined
Then went out in the 650S and that's on another level again, a 12 C on steroids. A bit like the step from 458 to speciale but not as extreme as you retain the creature comforts but have to say it seemed quicker again.
Was about to sign up on a stock 650s spider car until I realised it didn't have the Meridian surround sound speaker upgrade £3080.
Gutted but I don't want to compromise on a brand new car of this price and the music is important to me in this particular car. Whilst it was part of the IRIS upgrade on 12C its separate on 650S and apparently very few people spec it. They had another car with it but unfortunately it was silver which did nothing for the car IMHO
Anyone with a 650S spider who can comment on the quality/loudness of the standard Meridian sound system as it seemed a bit tinny with no oomph and seemed to be only 2 door speakers as opposed to 9 or 11 with the upgrade which presumably has an amp as well
I think with the noise the car makes and with the roof down it will be hard to hear any music on the basic system ?
Ok so you can all stop cheering now !
What a car(s). Drove both 12 C Spider and 650S. The 12C spider was better than I remember it from about a year ago just a little disappointed with the sound track from the sports exhaust although for a turbo car it wasn't bad just not a Ferrari V8 scream. Boy is it quick and refined
Then went out in the 650S and that's on another level again, a 12 C on steroids. A bit like the step from 458 to speciale but not as extreme as you retain the creature comforts but have to say it seemed quicker again.
Was about to sign up on a stock 650s spider car until I realised it didn't have the Meridian surround sound speaker upgrade £3080.
Gutted but I don't want to compromise on a brand new car of this price and the music is important to me in this particular car. Whilst it was part of the IRIS upgrade on 12C its separate on 650S and apparently very few people spec it. They had another car with it but unfortunately it was silver which did nothing for the car IMHO
Anyone with a 650S spider who can comment on the quality/loudness of the standard Meridian sound system as it seemed a bit tinny with no oomph and seemed to be only 2 door speakers as opposed to 9 or 11 with the upgrade which presumably has an amp as well
I think with the noise the car makes and with the roof down it will be hard to hear any music on the basic system ?
TP321 said:
So you like it now??
It has grown on me in spider form and I have always thought it was incredible technology and amazing value for money. I think the 650S improvements make it more rewarding for sure and I would now say its at least equal to the exiting 458 if thats a fair comparison of old versus new model.Like for like 458 spider v 12C spider I still think the Ferrari is slightly better because of the noise but its generally £25k more expensive less free servicing ( worth say £10k )
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