Discussion
Was just about to post this on a readers car thread when actually it makes more sense here.
Having just browsed apple news app just look at this Electric Vehicle news it pulled up for me:
Toyota have just appointed an R&D team for battery technology to enable them to produce EV vehicles. They aim for a BEV car in 2020.
Porsche are aiming for 20,000 annual sales for EV vehicles in the same year.
VW have scrapped their diesel program for the US and it's new plan is big on EVs. By 2025 they plan on being the world market leader for EVs.
Daimler have announced $11bn investment in EVs
Mini will have an EV by 2019
Even Maserati are getting in on it... new EV supercar in 2020.
Volvo are expecting to produce and sell EVs tuned by Polestar
This just goes on and on.
Looking at this, EVs are the not too distant reality for everyone. Not just people like us who like and are curious about new things. Heck even Maserati and Polestar want in!
Toyota, ahead of the curve with the introduction of Hybrids (the better route to have taken than going diesel) and steadfastly refusing to back battery vehicles (Hybrids and Hydrogen so far) have now caved and set up their own R&D team for battery tech and they aim for a full BEV for 2020.
The ones to watch are clearly VW and Daimler, the latter especially. Their pockets are ludicrously deep and they've already popped out a purely EV 26T rigid demo truck that works before the thought even left Elon Musk's lips. Tesla may have stolen a march on the traditional auto-makers but I do think the likes of VW and Daimler will quite quickly catch and eclipse them. Daimler and VW already make superbly engineered vehicles; powertrain aside, they are ahead of Tesla.
I think Porsches claims for 20k vehicles (mostly its E-mission as well) is probably a bit wishful though! How many top flight Model S has Tesla sold so far?
All in, I think we're in for an exciting 4-5 years.
Having just browsed apple news app just look at this Electric Vehicle news it pulled up for me:
Toyota have just appointed an R&D team for battery technology to enable them to produce EV vehicles. They aim for a BEV car in 2020.
Porsche are aiming for 20,000 annual sales for EV vehicles in the same year.
VW have scrapped their diesel program for the US and it's new plan is big on EVs. By 2025 they plan on being the world market leader for EVs.
Daimler have announced $11bn investment in EVs
Mini will have an EV by 2019
Even Maserati are getting in on it... new EV supercar in 2020.
Volvo are expecting to produce and sell EVs tuned by Polestar
This just goes on and on.
Looking at this, EVs are the not too distant reality for everyone. Not just people like us who like and are curious about new things. Heck even Maserati and Polestar want in!
Toyota, ahead of the curve with the introduction of Hybrids (the better route to have taken than going diesel) and steadfastly refusing to back battery vehicles (Hybrids and Hydrogen so far) have now caved and set up their own R&D team for battery tech and they aim for a full BEV for 2020.
The ones to watch are clearly VW and Daimler, the latter especially. Their pockets are ludicrously deep and they've already popped out a purely EV 26T rigid demo truck that works before the thought even left Elon Musk's lips. Tesla may have stolen a march on the traditional auto-makers but I do think the likes of VW and Daimler will quite quickly catch and eclipse them. Daimler and VW already make superbly engineered vehicles; powertrain aside, they are ahead of Tesla.
I think Porsches claims for 20k vehicles (mostly its E-mission as well) is probably a bit wishful though! How many top flight Model S has Tesla sold so far?
All in, I think we're in for an exciting 4-5 years.
AW10 said:
It will indeed be interesting to watch this play out. I'm not an EV owner but having driven an i3 and an i8 I can see their attraction. But a few comments...
the car makers are aren't doing this out of altruism - they're doing it to boost their average fuel economy figures so as not to get thumped by various authorities
batteries have come a long way but still need further development to get more range. somewhere I saw a comparison of energy volumes for the latest batteries and the same volume of petrol - needless to say petrol has far more energy per unit volume than any current battery
the public charging infrastructure is lagging behind and shows little signs of moving forward at the same rate as the EVs themselves. also, as batteries grow in capacity higher rate chargers will be needed more and more.
I see what you mean. But IMO EVs are actually better products... at least from a refinement and ease of use viewpoint. Many people of course came to EVs because their abilities fitted their use as a second car, they had great tax incentives and at the time many options for free charging. It was cheap motoring. That won't last and we're seeing that already; lease deals are higher and EcoTricity et al are now charging for public charge point use. But whilst some have bailed back to ICE cars because that is what worked out cheaper for them. Many who came for the cheap motoring have stayed for the refinement, the ease of driving, the not going to the petrol station, drivability, performance etc. In many respects (not all), they are better vehicles.the car makers are aren't doing this out of altruism - they're doing it to boost their average fuel economy figures so as not to get thumped by various authorities
batteries have come a long way but still need further development to get more range. somewhere I saw a comparison of energy volumes for the latest batteries and the same volume of petrol - needless to say petrol has far more energy per unit volume than any current battery
the public charging infrastructure is lagging behind and shows little signs of moving forward at the same rate as the EVs themselves. also, as batteries grow in capacity higher rate chargers will be needed more and more.
A litre of petrol holds about 35 MJ of energy...its ridiculously energy dense and you are right, batteries don't come close. Though a tesla might... lets see, 100 kWh pack, so 100 kW for 1 hour = 100 kJ/s for 3600 seconds, thats 360 MJ. Of course you only need 10 litre of fuel to match that and of course 10 litres takes up a much smaller space than the pack in the Tesla.
But you also have to consider, of that 35 MJ probably 20 or more of it is being binned in terms of waste heat and noise. Which is such a shame. 100 years + of engineering development on the ICE and we still chuck away the lions share of the energy stored in the fuel.
Secondly, pack density isn't that much of a problem. Yes it takes up a large space but without needing a complete powertrain, exhaust system etc the space is there to use. Lighter is of course better and as pack size reduces (they reckon 2045 before they hit the same energy density as fuel) cars will become more efficient and there'll be more room inside for people too.
I do not think that Automakers are following this because they think it'll keep the authorities off their back and them in ICEs. I think the writing is on the wall for the ICE in many applications and I think the Automakers know it. ICE will however remain the prime mover in many heavy duty applications though
Just as aside, this quote:
"The overall industry is now shifting its electrification focus towards EVs," stated Yasuyuki Yoshinaga, CEO of Fuji Heavy Industries, which manufacturers Subarus. "We are in the age where we cannot just go on launching EVs only as regulation compliance cars."
They realise now, these things are not just a tool for fleet emissions gaming. I think the Japanese have been a bit slow, but they'll catch up. As I say even Toyota has changed its tune, having been steadfastedly against outright EVs. Perhaps they feel like they're having their hands forced. Correct technology or not, it's got momentum enough to have big OEMs getting their wallets out,
A fuel cells big issue is transient demand. They suck at it, and the buck/boost converters used to keep the voltages nice when doing so soak up a nice bit of energy.
I think we'll move beyond the lithium battery into something with great energy density. Perhaps even get to the point sometime in the distant future were you literally wang a chocolate bar size fuel pellet in a hatch and drive around for 3 months. How cool would that be!
"The overall industry is now shifting its electrification focus towards EVs," stated Yasuyuki Yoshinaga, CEO of Fuji Heavy Industries, which manufacturers Subarus. "We are in the age where we cannot just go on launching EVs only as regulation compliance cars."
They realise now, these things are not just a tool for fleet emissions gaming. I think the Japanese have been a bit slow, but they'll catch up. As I say even Toyota has changed its tune, having been steadfastedly against outright EVs. Perhaps they feel like they're having their hands forced. Correct technology or not, it's got momentum enough to have big OEMs getting their wallets out,
A fuel cells big issue is transient demand. They suck at it, and the buck/boost converters used to keep the voltages nice when doing so soak up a nice bit of energy.
I think we'll move beyond the lithium battery into something with great energy density. Perhaps even get to the point sometime in the distant future were you literally wang a chocolate bar size fuel pellet in a hatch and drive around for 3 months. How cool would that be!
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Monday 28th November 20:28
Have to agree and they don't need a lot of the traditional automotive engineering trades either. They can produce a drive train without them as it's all electronics and electrical items, stuff they've been making for us for a long time now. I still think the Europeans will have the upper hand on vehicle dynamics though.
Max_Torque said:
And just as i was saying the words "critical mass", lookie here:
BMW-Daimler-Ford-VAG_create_CCS_netowrk
;-)
Yep spotted that today. I am currently applying for a job for a company that is involved with EV transport. Given what they do, and given what seems to be an looming critical mass..... I best be asking them if they plan on still being relevant in a few years because it seems the things they want to help achieve are going to happen regardless. BMW-Daimler-Ford-VAG_create_CCS_netowrk
;-)
It never crossed my mind, but I read a piece on an EV review and the reviewer mentioned that it was a bit of a travesty that makers were allowed to enter the market with their own charging method. We've got CCS, ChaDeMo and for some reason Renault decided AC was the way to go.
Hopefully, charging standardisation is brought about swiftly.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 30th November 14:16
mickthemechanic said:
Trucks are a problem when it comes to Hybrid/Electric especially long haul stuff. I think trucks will be diesel for a good while yet.
Yep, last I saw some Roadmaps from research bodies they had heavy duty diesel still being the prime mover of big stuff right out to 2070. A bit Diesel engine is a seriously flexible and powerful bit of kit. That Nikola truck thing has 1000 hp and about 2700 Nm of torque. Ok in power terms that probably bests a lot of 13-16 litre truck engines, but they don't need power, they need torque and 2700 Nm isn't anything to write home about. Our Merceds euro 6 13 litre engine had 2500 Nm on tap. They are ridiculously strong! A 42t HGV on the M1 pretty much needs all its torque just maintaining speeds on gradients. On a test we were sat at full load for a fair while going up a hill. I think a battery pack would get rinsed in short order. And there is so much kinetic energy to recapture on the downhill they can't actually use it all as it arrives to charge the batteries... they have to dump some of it into some big resistors. Have a look at Mercedes ETruck, it's a 26T rigid with a huge battery HVAC module on one side and what I think is a big module to deal with recouperation of energy (including those resistors to dump the energy into).
https://goo.gl/images/LSWMo1
I think that should work for a light goods delivery vehicle or a bin truck for example.
Well
Things are escalating fairly quickly in battery land. Check this out:
The Next Web: Samsung sets out to blow up the electric vehicle market with powerful new battery. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwupeZlzM
Samsung subsidiary SDI reckons they have a battery tech, that will be ready for use in vehicles by 2021, that will give 500km range and take a charge in 20 minutes. And it's light weight to boot. Part of their success is being able to drastically reduce internal cell resistance.
Whilst I am here. Another exciting bit of news for the ICE:
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Mazda-s-...
Seems Mazda are further along than I thought with Skyactiv 2 and sounds like they have managed to crack HCCI combustion for practical road use (I bet it still only does it at certain speed-load points, but if that includes motorway cruise then great!).
Last I read about Mazda and Skyactiv 2 they were aiming to push the current 14:1 compression in their 1st gen engine up to a diesel like 18:1!!!
To be honest Mazda makes downsizing look pretty boring and conventional. It's great that they're taking a different approach.
Things are escalating fairly quickly in battery land. Check this out:
The Next Web: Samsung sets out to blow up the electric vehicle market with powerful new battery. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwupeZlzM
Samsung subsidiary SDI reckons they have a battery tech, that will be ready for use in vehicles by 2021, that will give 500km range and take a charge in 20 minutes. And it's light weight to boot. Part of their success is being able to drastically reduce internal cell resistance.
Whilst I am here. Another exciting bit of news for the ICE:
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Mazda-s-...
Seems Mazda are further along than I thought with Skyactiv 2 and sounds like they have managed to crack HCCI combustion for practical road use (I bet it still only does it at certain speed-load points, but if that includes motorway cruise then great!).
Last I read about Mazda and Skyactiv 2 they were aiming to push the current 14:1 compression in their 1st gen engine up to a diesel like 18:1!!!
To be honest Mazda makes downsizing look pretty boring and conventional. It's great that they're taking a different approach.
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