Ford S-Max, diesel vs. petrol - talk to me
Discussion
Any S-Max owners on here? Looking for general advice on them from 2007-2009ish in Zetec or Titanium spec. I'm put off the diesel DPF/DMF/Fuel pump/Injector issues that plague modern engines, and I've heard word on the street is the 2.0 TDCi is pretty unreliable. Anyone have any pearls of wisdom to prove the rumours wrong on these or the 1.8TDCi?
I'm also assuming the diesel bubble is about to burst in general (environmental pressure), so I'm leaning more towards petrols as this'll be a keeper for a good few years, and likely the 2.0 Duratec lump. Only issue is I keep reading lots of buyers guides saying it's awful, gutless, souless etc. The 2.5T is the one that jumps out at me, obviously, but I know it'll be thirsty (reckon the book figures of 30mpg average are optimistic!) The 2.0 is rated at 35mpg, but being that it'll no doubt be gutless, will it end up getting closer and closer to the 2.5 Volvo lump once you take into account mashing your foot down to keep it going. There's only £20 a year in tax difference between them, and the 2.5T is no more to purchase, even though you're getting more for your money.
The petrols also tend to be lower mileage for the money, too.
Plenty of buyers guides out there, but no real-world opinions that I can find, other than the people who leave reviews for Tripadvisor, and I don't really trust them to be level-headed! I'm treading carefully about it all because we have a ratty old Xsara Picasso HDi which just keeps on going and going, doing 45mpg all the way. It's getting long in the tooth now though, and the S-Max won't be soul-destroying to drive, so I feel it's time for a change. My only concern is how s
te would I feel going from a ratty old car worth 3 pence which, aside from the odd small niggle, just gets on with the job, or a newer car I've spunked a few thousand on which throws its toys fairly often? I've read plenty of mixed reliability reviews on the S-Max.
Any thoughts?
I'm also assuming the diesel bubble is about to burst in general (environmental pressure), so I'm leaning more towards petrols as this'll be a keeper for a good few years, and likely the 2.0 Duratec lump. Only issue is I keep reading lots of buyers guides saying it's awful, gutless, souless etc. The 2.5T is the one that jumps out at me, obviously, but I know it'll be thirsty (reckon the book figures of 30mpg average are optimistic!) The 2.0 is rated at 35mpg, but being that it'll no doubt be gutless, will it end up getting closer and closer to the 2.5 Volvo lump once you take into account mashing your foot down to keep it going. There's only £20 a year in tax difference between them, and the 2.5T is no more to purchase, even though you're getting more for your money.
The petrols also tend to be lower mileage for the money, too.
Plenty of buyers guides out there, but no real-world opinions that I can find, other than the people who leave reviews for Tripadvisor, and I don't really trust them to be level-headed! I'm treading carefully about it all because we have a ratty old Xsara Picasso HDi which just keeps on going and going, doing 45mpg all the way. It's getting long in the tooth now though, and the S-Max won't be soul-destroying to drive, so I feel it's time for a change. My only concern is how s
te would I feel going from a ratty old car worth 3 pence which, aside from the odd small niggle, just gets on with the job, or a newer car I've spunked a few thousand on which throws its toys fairly often? I've read plenty of mixed reliability reviews on the S-Max.Any thoughts?
Cheers guys.
The 2.5T is the obvious one I want (we do around 6000miles a year) but it's still quite a kick in the nuts going from a 2.0HDI doing 45mpg to a 2.5 petrol doing 20mpg! Especially as I won't be driving it as much as the wife.
Can find very little on the 2.0 petrol though. If people were queuing to tell me they did 35-40mpg, I'd be delighted. My worry is in the real world, they won't be much better than the 2.5T, and that brings a whole lot more for the money.
Diesel-wise, I know the 1.8TDCi is a bit of a lemon in terms of performance, refinement etc, but I'd heard it was actually more reliable than the PSA lump. I've had a few friends with versions of the 2.0 and 2.2HDI/TDCi engines, and they've had trouble.
My heart says 2.5T all day long, but we had a Mondeo ST200 a few years back and the main reason we sold it was because of the fuel economy!
The 2.5T is the obvious one I want (we do around 6000miles a year) but it's still quite a kick in the nuts going from a 2.0HDI doing 45mpg to a 2.5 petrol doing 20mpg! Especially as I won't be driving it as much as the wife.
Can find very little on the 2.0 petrol though. If people were queuing to tell me they did 35-40mpg, I'd be delighted. My worry is in the real world, they won't be much better than the 2.5T, and that brings a whole lot more for the money.
Diesel-wise, I know the 1.8TDCi is a bit of a lemon in terms of performance, refinement etc, but I'd heard it was actually more reliable than the PSA lump. I've had a few friends with versions of the 2.0 and 2.2HDI/TDCi engines, and they've had trouble.
My heart says 2.5T all day long, but we had a Mondeo ST200 a few years back and the main reason we sold it was because of the fuel economy!
BoostMonkey said:
2.0TDCi in the S-Max mix driving 40mpg (tops) 6,000 miles is £762 a year (112p ltr)
2.5 5cyl Turbo in S-Max mix driving 26 mpg (easily) 6,000 miles is £1089 a year (104p ltr)
So a differance of £327 to drive the petrol, which honestly for how good the engine is, is nothing!
Just be aware the liners do have a habit of going on the 2.5, but there are ways to easily prevent this.
When you put it like that.......2.5 5cyl Turbo in S-Max mix driving 26 mpg (easily) 6,000 miles is £1089 a year (104p ltr)
So a differance of £327 to drive the petrol, which honestly for how good the engine is, is nothing!
Just be aware the liners do have a habit of going on the 2.5, but there are ways to easily prevent this.
£327 will be saved when the day comes that I don't have to change the DMF
Makes the difference between the 2.0 and the 2.5 look even smaller, too. Not heard of the liner issue though, could you elaborate?
Ok, update time:
I discounted the diesels early on, as research I'd conducted (plus some of my own experiences) showed that the 1.8TDCi Ford lump was actually worse than the 2.0HDi in our ratty old Picasso! The 2.0TDCi seems to be much better to drive, but I was concerned with reliability issues (the engine in the Picasso is an older generation of HDi, which are pretty tough - these later PSA units I'm not so sure about!) Basically took some of the advice here with some of the advice elsewhere and decided that the extra cost of a petrol in fuel and tax was more than outweighed by the additional cost to buy a diesel (about £2k more, spec for spec whether comparing with 2.0 or 2.5T) and one potential mechanical failure, of which either the 1.8 or 2.0 could easily spring.
The S-Max has an owners club (really), and it's literally ram-packed with info. Possibly the most detailed of all owner's forums I've seen, but then the old Mondeo one used to be when we had our ST200. Loads of guys on there also suggested the petrols, being that our mileage was going to be so low. They also admitted that Ford's fuel figures are optimistic, with the diesels often struggling to better 40mpg. So a petrol it was, and I also knew it had to be a Titanium model. Ideally a late-07 model, but I'd take each car on its merits.
Between 2.0 and 2.5T, I never actually made a decision. I just decided that I'd worry more about condition/value for money and the engine is what it is. The 2.5T would obviously be the nicer one; faster, more character, better soundtrack and the fact that the top of the range models always just feel.....better, in some way anyway! On the flip side, the 2.0 would be more simple, very slightly cheaper to tax (£20 a year) and very slightly cheaper to run (most guys average 30mpg in a 2.0, versus 25mpg in the 2.5T.....pittance, in the real world).
And then on Friday, boom! A red S-Max 2.5T Titanium pops up. It's cheap, and though it's 160miles away, I know a guy who runs a used car place in that town. I ring him, and it turns out he knows the guy running the place it was for sale at. Manage to get him to agree to a trade sale (ker-ching!) and I hired a Chevrolet Spark to get me there yesterday (cheaper than the train, but my back paid for it last night!).
Brought it home to my wife's complete surprise (it's a 30th birthday present) and haven't regretted a thing:
What did I learn about the S-Max over the 160 miles home? I learned it's not just hype. I was worried it would all be a load of fuss over nothing, having agreed to buy it blind, and having paid for it without even driving it (I also worried it would be a dog, but sometimes you just have to take a chance)! But there was nothing to worry about, it's awesome. Genuinely, awesome, in my opinion anyway. It handles and grips like a nearly 2tonne car has no earthly right to. I wouldn't call it fast, but it gathers pace very easily, with zero drama or fuss. In fact when I first drove it hard, I immediately just thought it felt sluggish, but it has very tall gears and very long legs. You don't get pinned back in your seat, but the speedo whips round to 90 pretty quickly! I didn't realise how quick I was going until I saw the A4 behind me disappear coming out of the M6 toll booths. It's kind of funny the fastest car we have in the house is probably the family wagon!
The ride? Good. The performance? Good (if not earth-shattering. The noise? Good. The handling? Excellent. The interior space? Good. Build quality? Good. Comfort? Good. Exterior looks? Good. And it did 32mpg on the way home at around 75mph.
It's hard to believe the company who gave us the mk5 Escort has given us this. I'm truly stunned, the S-Max is actually a perfect car!
I discounted the diesels early on, as research I'd conducted (plus some of my own experiences) showed that the 1.8TDCi Ford lump was actually worse than the 2.0HDi in our ratty old Picasso! The 2.0TDCi seems to be much better to drive, but I was concerned with reliability issues (the engine in the Picasso is an older generation of HDi, which are pretty tough - these later PSA units I'm not so sure about!) Basically took some of the advice here with some of the advice elsewhere and decided that the extra cost of a petrol in fuel and tax was more than outweighed by the additional cost to buy a diesel (about £2k more, spec for spec whether comparing with 2.0 or 2.5T) and one potential mechanical failure, of which either the 1.8 or 2.0 could easily spring.
The S-Max has an owners club (really), and it's literally ram-packed with info. Possibly the most detailed of all owner's forums I've seen, but then the old Mondeo one used to be when we had our ST200. Loads of guys on there also suggested the petrols, being that our mileage was going to be so low. They also admitted that Ford's fuel figures are optimistic, with the diesels often struggling to better 40mpg. So a petrol it was, and I also knew it had to be a Titanium model. Ideally a late-07 model, but I'd take each car on its merits.
Between 2.0 and 2.5T, I never actually made a decision. I just decided that I'd worry more about condition/value for money and the engine is what it is. The 2.5T would obviously be the nicer one; faster, more character, better soundtrack and the fact that the top of the range models always just feel.....better, in some way anyway! On the flip side, the 2.0 would be more simple, very slightly cheaper to tax (£20 a year) and very slightly cheaper to run (most guys average 30mpg in a 2.0, versus 25mpg in the 2.5T.....pittance, in the real world).
And then on Friday, boom! A red S-Max 2.5T Titanium pops up. It's cheap, and though it's 160miles away, I know a guy who runs a used car place in that town. I ring him, and it turns out he knows the guy running the place it was for sale at. Manage to get him to agree to a trade sale (ker-ching!) and I hired a Chevrolet Spark to get me there yesterday (cheaper than the train, but my back paid for it last night!).
Brought it home to my wife's complete surprise (it's a 30th birthday present) and haven't regretted a thing:
What did I learn about the S-Max over the 160 miles home? I learned it's not just hype. I was worried it would all be a load of fuss over nothing, having agreed to buy it blind, and having paid for it without even driving it (I also worried it would be a dog, but sometimes you just have to take a chance)! But there was nothing to worry about, it's awesome. Genuinely, awesome, in my opinion anyway. It handles and grips like a nearly 2tonne car has no earthly right to. I wouldn't call it fast, but it gathers pace very easily, with zero drama or fuss. In fact when I first drove it hard, I immediately just thought it felt sluggish, but it has very tall gears and very long legs. You don't get pinned back in your seat, but the speedo whips round to 90 pretty quickly! I didn't realise how quick I was going until I saw the A4 behind me disappear coming out of the M6 toll booths. It's kind of funny the fastest car we have in the house is probably the family wagon!
The ride? Good. The performance? Good (if not earth-shattering. The noise? Good. The handling? Excellent. The interior space? Good. Build quality? Good. Comfort? Good. Exterior looks? Good. And it did 32mpg on the way home at around 75mph.
It's hard to believe the company who gave us the mk5 Escort has given us this. I'm truly stunned, the S-Max is actually a perfect car!
Edited by Kitchski on Tuesday 27th January 13:21
Well, we've had the 2.5T for three years now. Overall very happy with it. Info you might want to know:
Regards living with it:
t anyway), steering rack, steering pump, coolant hose, PAS hose, front shockers, rear caliper and a handbrake cable. Some of it could be classed as wear and tear, but by contrast I've had an old Peugeot 407 HDi for 18months, with 215k on the clock, and I've changed bulbs (and fixed a water leak). Oh, and it needs a new aircon pipe (if I want the aircon to work again). Some cars wear out faster than others, and the S-Max is one to stay on top of if you want to keep it in good running order.
Great car though, I'm really impressed with it. Ours is 12years old and I see no reason to replace it any time soon.
- Not sure on clutch, but would think it'd be a few hundred quid labour. Looks a bit of a pig to do.
- Cambelt should be changed on 80k. Ford reckon 125k, but the Volvo interval is apparently 80k miles (bit of a difference!) I got our sorted not long after we got it, on 97k, just for piece of mind.
- They eat steering racks, though thankfully as a result the parts are fast moving, and therefore cheap. Ours did it the week after I picked it up (no joke!) The PAS still works fine, but you get a very slight 'stick' whenever you initially apply any lock. It's because of a nylon bush that breaks up in the pinion....I think. Think the rack was £125 exchange, plus whatever your garage charges to fit it.
- Ours has had advisories on rear trailing arm bushes since we got it. Apparently they're difficult to change properly (easy to bodge), and the only proper fix is a new arm. No impending doom from it though, as it's barely got any worse since I bought it.
- Biggest thing to look for is liner problems. I've not heard of an S-Max having it, but plenty of Focus STs have, along with the Volvo guys. Un-modified cars too. Only way to know is a disappearing coolant level over time, and lots of water vapour from the exhaust. Problem there is that the 2.5T produces a lot of vapour anyway! Speaking of the exhaust, they're £800 from Ford, and not available aftermarket unless you want a billy-boy version.
Regards living with it:
- Lovely to drive. Really, a good one will blow you away. Very quiet, very composed, very relaxed. Good steering feel, good ride, excellent body control and strong grip. Makes you wonder how Ford managed it (oh right, yes, they sacrifice tyres!)
- Economy is low 20's in town, though if you work at it you can get to high 20's (average). It'll pull from 1k rpm in any gear, and there's next to no turbo lag, so it's very easy to pootle around. All the controls are light, so easy in traffic. On a run you can get 35mpg if you keep the cruise off and don't exceed 70mph, or 30mpg if you do.
- Don't expect it to be fast, because it isn't. Lots of talk of them being a hot-hatch MPV - it's all BS. Think of a 2.5T Titanium as a Mondeo Ghia V6, but with a little bit of the tacky wood removed and a bit more silver paint. It's not sporty at all (and it's all the better for it, IMO). The 5-pot engine is more like a smooth, grunty V6 in its behaviour. In fact, it's smoother than some V6s I've owned.
- Be aware that it might not have TCS or ESP. You'd think it'd be standard fit, but amazingly it wasn't, and our scrabbles quite a bit at the front end.
t anyway), steering rack, steering pump, coolant hose, PAS hose, front shockers, rear caliper and a handbrake cable. Some of it could be classed as wear and tear, but by contrast I've had an old Peugeot 407 HDi for 18months, with 215k on the clock, and I've changed bulbs (and fixed a water leak). Oh, and it needs a new aircon pipe (if I want the aircon to work again). Some cars wear out faster than others, and the S-Max is one to stay on top of if you want to keep it in good running order.Great car though, I'm really impressed with it. Ours is 12years old and I see no reason to replace it any time soon.
Congrats on the purchase! Didn't even know they did a Titanium X with the 2.5T engine, thought it came later on. Everyday is a school day!
Have to confess I didn't really think about the 'image' of it, as it's not a concern of mine. Likewise the build quality - it's still in one piece, ergo it's built well enough! But our armrest upper section has broken too, and the centre cubby in the top of the dash is also broken, so it can't be opened unless you use a Tesco clubcard to lever it. Small niggles though. I'd fix them if I was that bothered.
Forgot to mention - check to see if it still has the original windscreen fitted. If it's been replaced, sometimes they're not bonded properly along the top where the heating element and auto wiper sensor pass through, and you can get a wet interior. In extreme cases, people have had dashboard fires! Obviously there's a chance that the screen could have still been replaced, only with a genuine one, but what can you do?
Ours is original, but most of the heating elements have died. I'm more worried about the replacement being poorly fitted than getting the elements to work properly again, so haven't changed it!
Have to confess I didn't really think about the 'image' of it, as it's not a concern of mine. Likewise the build quality - it's still in one piece, ergo it's built well enough! But our armrest upper section has broken too, and the centre cubby in the top of the dash is also broken, so it can't be opened unless you use a Tesco clubcard to lever it. Small niggles though. I'd fix them if I was that bothered.
Forgot to mention - check to see if it still has the original windscreen fitted. If it's been replaced, sometimes they're not bonded properly along the top where the heating element and auto wiper sensor pass through, and you can get a wet interior. In extreme cases, people have had dashboard fires! Obviously there's a chance that the screen could have still been replaced, only with a genuine one, but what can you do?
Ours is original, but most of the heating elements have died. I'm more worried about the replacement being poorly fitted than getting the elements to work properly again, so haven't changed it!
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