Affordable used all-wheel-drive 4-door saloon?

[J4x4K]

Are there any all-wheel-drive 4-door saloons which are affordable but not too old? Something besides German. But it needs to be LHD.

To give an example of what type of budget and car I'm looking for, if the 2005-2008 Opel-Vauxhall Vectra was all-wheel-drive I would buy one. Specially the fastback-liftback or whatever it's called version. It tickles all boxes but all-wheel-drive. But needs to be a saloon. No Estates or hatchbacks such as a Fiesta or Focus style.

I have gone through the options but didn't find much. I'm wondering if I overlooked something?

[J4x4K]

All the Japanese cars suggested are quite difficult to find in Europe in LHD.

The S60R is an interesting suggestion. Not a big fan of Volvos. But I will check and see how much they go for. Something tells me they might not be very affordable.

[J4x4K]

Jim AK said:

Passat 4 motion?

German.

[J4x4K]

InitialDave said:

Mazda 6 MPS?

Why not German?

High maintenance costs.

All-wheel-drive versions not affordable unless in bad condition.

Edited by J4x4K on Wednesday 26th October 22:15

[J4x4K]

Dapster said:

Do you want sports car or barge?

If it's the latter, then there's nothing better.




http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=...

A 4-door sports car?

In a serious note, I would not mind a sports-saloon or super-saloon as they are called. But it doesn't have to be.

The problem with the Honda and pretty much all the Japanese cars suggested is that most people outside of continental Europe don't realize Japanese cars are nowhere as common here as they are in Australia, the U.S. or even the UK. Maybe in Sweden and the rest of northern Europe. But not in central or south Europe.

Specially cars of that vintage. You need to keep in mind that I need affordable, which will mean 10+ years old.

I can go weeks or months without seeing a Honda or Toyota and even Nissan on the road. Mazda is a bit more common but still. And when I see Japanese cars on the road they are only the newer cars and basic models like Nissan Micra, Mazda 3 or 6 etc. A Honda and Toyota are like unicorns. This means it's hard to find one to buy, specially a 10+ years old. And if I find it won't be the AWD versions. Just the basic versions. And even if I would find a AWD version, it means who bought it is a huge Japanese car fan. Nobody else would pay the money for one here. So he will want a lot for it because in his mind he has something very special. And then after all that, even if you buy it and something goes wrong with it, you are out of luck. Forget about walking in any shop with it and having it repaired. You are tied to the official dealership network, which means £££££££££.

This is why Japanese cars here have no value. Buying a new one is a waste of money because 2nd hand they go for peanuts. Because nobody wants them really. This is why most of them are also only the basic versions. They are bad investment. If it's a sporty one the fast and furious crowd may want. But only for peanuts too because they are young people without money. If they are the more expensive AWD luxury cars, the owner will want to much for it and one would be crazy to pay because of the depreciation.

[J4x4K]

Zad said:

Vauxhall Insignia 4x4? I hate myself for thinking it, but still...

I said affordable. . This will most likely mean 10+ years old. The Insignia is too new and expensive.

[J4x4K]

davepoth said:

Is German, so out.

bigvanfan said:

Opel are German

Well, Opel is German in name only really. It's GM and the maintenance costs are not as high as VW, BMW, Audi or Mercedes. So I'm fine with Opel.

[J4x4K]

SWoll said:

I thnk you're probably going to have to accept that some sort of Quattro model Audi is your best bet from an availaility standpoint. I doubt they're any more expensive to run than an equivalent Volvo or Alfa TBH anyway, and you'll have far more choice available to pick a good one.

Well, I'm not buying an Alfa. Don't fancy being under my car every weekend.

[J4x4K]

culpz said:

What do you mean by high maintenance costs? You mean a fluid change every few years at a couple of hundred quid?

Also, I think you could be pleasently surprised at what you could get for your money if you looked.

I had a VW Passat before. You are right. Engine is pretty reliable. fluid change etc and you are fine! But PRAY nothing else goes wrong. I had a suspension problem and had to leave my left arm at the dealership to pay for it. Never again.

[J4x4K]

talksthetorque said:

How about something British?
Despite Royal connections and the cars on most suburban driveways, British isn't actually German.....

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/j...

Ps I know it's based on a Mondeo, which was a bit German.

Edited by talksthetorque on Thursday 27th October 00:19

But is it reliable? I have heard horror stories about it and if it breaks, well, it's a Jag!££££££

[J4x4K]

kambites said:

Is the Octavia big enough? They've done various Haldex versions of that (it's a hatchback but then so is the Vectra you mention in the original post).

The Octavia is a hatchback? I thought they came in saloon and estate only?

The Vectra I mentioned is not really a hatchback. It's more of a fastback. The roof slops down and the trunk sticks out. It may not be the technical description of hatchback, but to me a hatchback is like a short estate, like a Fiesta, Golf etc.

[J4x4K]

s m said:

Or the Saab 4wd 9-5

Yes, I had already thought of a Saab and to be honest it's what I'm leaning towards at the moment.;)

Apart from not being made anymore, which scares me a bit when it comes to having work done and finding parts, it is the best option I could come up with. But I started the thread to see if I am overlooking something else.

[J4x4K]

Riley Blue said:

S'cuse me but Opel designs and manufactures cars for sale worldwide. Those cars are as German as any of the others you've listed.

You are of course technically right. But Rüsselsheim can't let a fart out without an approval from Detroit first. They are not independent like BMW, VW or Mercedes. For that reason they are also not as special. That is just not the type of car they make. So they are lower cost to buy, run and maintain. Believe me, I have had both types.

Same thing with Ford Europe. Technically German. But not really.

I would be fine with both Opel or Ford Europe cars.

[J4x4K]

kambites said:

There has never been a saloon version of the Octavia in the literal sense - the rear glass opens with the boot. But yes, it's shaped closer to a saloon than to most hatches.

I see what you mean now. I never paid attention to that as Skodas were never my thing. But I'm fine with that then. It looks like a saloon, like the Vectra does.

But they are VW. Are the costs as high as VW? I know them Seats are for example. They think they are Alfa Romeos or something.

[J4x4K]

kambites said:

That rather depends on what you mean. Servicing at main dealers will generally be cheaper than VW but I can't imagine why anyone would take a seven+ year old car to a main dealer. Buying the parts to service it yourself will be the same (because they're the same parts). Independent specialists will probably charge you the same for both marques.

So in other words, yes they are as expensive as VW then.

[J4x4K]

TIGA84 said:

Why so specific, I can't think of any eventuality that would require such a specific vehicle.

A LHD, Budget, 4WD, non-german, saloon that's not new, but not too old.

And this fixation with all german cars being more expensive in terms of running cost/repairs? WTF?

Sorry, I thought it would be obvious as for my reasons. But I can explain.


A LHD: I live in Europe where LHD cars are the standard.

Budget: I'm not rich.

4WD: I want more safety when driving on ice, snow and rain with family.

saloon: Need 4-doors but don't like estates. Hatchbacks are too small for family.

that's not new: Again, I'm not rich. Would love me some AWD 2017 Mercedes. But can't afford.

but not too old: I'm not rich. But also don't want a 20 years old car. The rust, finding parts, too old tech etc.

As for German, I speak from personal experience. No WTF needed. It's a personal choice.

[J4x4K]

TIGA84 said:

Lets cut to the chase.

Your choices are going to be Volvo/Saab/Jag/Ford etc given you don't like Jap either now.

Being honest, running a car out of warranty is going to throw bills at you at some point regardless of whether they're German/Italian or wherever so just buy what you can afford, and buy it right to minimise the risk. An A6 Quattro could run for 100k miles with barely a penny spent or your S60 could lunch its engine 10 mins after you pick it up.

Also, why don't you just tell us the budget, it might actually throw some real-world examples at you to consider.

I actually did give a budget in the first post. I gave the 2005 Vectra as an example of style AND budget.

I have nothing against Japanese cars. They are great cars really. But I already explained in detail the problem with them around here.

[J4x4K]

I understand my choices are limited. At least I didn't ask for RWD.

RWD 4-door saloon, not older than around 10 years, European and excluding BMW and Mercedes there is only Jaguar and the Omega left.

RWD are a rare breed these days. Mercerdes, BMW and Jaguar are the last line of defense. Sad but true.

[J4x4K]

talksthetorque said:

For 2k?
Cheap running costs?
Remember we're looking for the moon on a stick.

If I would stipulate manual gearbox only, even new and budget unlimited we would have a problem with finding many RWD 4-door saloons with a manual transmission and not German. Or even many AWD

So I am being a bit tolerant, because I hate automatic cars. But I know I can't have everything. So I'm fine with an automatic AWD.

[J4x4K]

shtu said:

Really, your criteria point to an A6 3.0 TDI Quattro. Not expensive (sub-£6000 here), reliable, and not actually expensive to run. Sure, a major Service is about £200-250, but it'll only ask for that at 15000 mile intervals.

I'm slightly biased as I own one, but here's my list of repairs from 5 years of ownership,

Inlet manifolds replaced - £300.
Wheel bearing - £200.
Engine mounts - £220.

Like it or not Audi\VW are probably the biggest sellers of the kind of car you are looking for, and you've ruled them out, which means the biggest pool of cars to choose from, the most available spares (new and used), the most garages that have actually seen one before, etc.

Which generation A6? £6000 is just over the edge of my budget. But if I really want the car I could pay that. But afraid not for a VW again.

The other thing is cars in the UK are much cheaper. A £6000 car there is a £8000-9000 car here.


Yes I know eliminating the VWs take out a huge portion of my options. This is why I started the thread. If I was going to go with the obvious choice I wouldn't need to ask for suggestions.


Like I said I had troubles with the Passat. Not looking forward to go through that again. The A6 is actually based on the Passat right? But Audi is more upscale so even worse in the cost. The problem is not that they require too much maintenance. They don't. But if anything major ever happens, forget it! Almost not worth it repairing it. So the problem is not servicing. It's repairs.