Would you still buy a Volkswagen?...
Discussion
...or an Audi, Seat or Skoda for that matter?
It has been nearly 18 months now since the VW emissions scandal, many law suits are still pending and in other world markets such as North America, sales are on their arse, as VW/Audi are forbidden to sell new diesel cars (their USP in the market) and are sitting on thousands of unsold new cars.
However, here in Europe, it appears to be business as usual and in the UK, Golf, Polo and A3 still seem to be selling really well (I honestly don't know what the proportion of petrol to diesel sales currently is).
So, should we just forgive and forget like we did 70 years ago and continue to buy VAG products on their merits as vehicles i.e. they generally look quite smart, drive well and give the impression of being fuel-efficient and well-built or is it morally wrong to buy a car from a company who deliberately broke the law and put profits before people's health and well-being and may have contributed to thousands of premature deaths worldwide, all whilst peddling us a lie about being an environmentally sensitive company?
I struggle with this a little, as I have been a fan of VWs in the past and although they don't necessarily make exciting cars, for ordinary stuff I have seen them as a benchmark i.e. they look smart but not too flash, you get a solid drive, a well-finished interior, good fuel economy and all the controls for me fall naturally to hand.
I'm not sure that I would buy a diesel but I have long been an admirer of the Golf GTI since the mk5 and as a smart, quick enough all-rounder that wouldn't look out of place in any setting and not look too tragic for a man pushing 40 to drive, it's still a tough act to beat!
Likewise, I have been considering a dual cab pickup recently and visually the Amarok appeals to me most, especially with the powerful V6 TDI engine that they are planning to put in. Damn you Volkswagen!
Are Audi also guilty by association? TT RS, RS6 and R8 are all stunning cars that I would love to own.
Not so bothered about Skodas and Seats to be honest. Decent enough cars I suppose and it would be a shame for the Czech and Spanish workforces to suffer if VW had to axe either brand in order to survive post emissions-scandal.
This whole affair is a shame because I thought in the past that the Germans had shown some integrity in addressing safety issues with the original Audi TT and Mercedes A-Class (unfortunately too late for some people on the TT).
In contrast, the big three American firms have a long history of negligence and contempt for their customers and covering up major safety issues with no reprimand from the American government. Ford Pinto/Explorer? Chevrolet Corvair? Exploding Jeeps?...oh and how about the 2 star Euro NCAP Mustang? Disgraceful!
So, would you still have a problem with buying a VW group vehicle in light of their morally dubious behavior or would you still be happy to buy one if it ticked all the boxes?
It has been nearly 18 months now since the VW emissions scandal, many law suits are still pending and in other world markets such as North America, sales are on their arse, as VW/Audi are forbidden to sell new diesel cars (their USP in the market) and are sitting on thousands of unsold new cars.
However, here in Europe, it appears to be business as usual and in the UK, Golf, Polo and A3 still seem to be selling really well (I honestly don't know what the proportion of petrol to diesel sales currently is).
So, should we just forgive and forget like we did 70 years ago and continue to buy VAG products on their merits as vehicles i.e. they generally look quite smart, drive well and give the impression of being fuel-efficient and well-built or is it morally wrong to buy a car from a company who deliberately broke the law and put profits before people's health and well-being and may have contributed to thousands of premature deaths worldwide, all whilst peddling us a lie about being an environmentally sensitive company?
I struggle with this a little, as I have been a fan of VWs in the past and although they don't necessarily make exciting cars, for ordinary stuff I have seen them as a benchmark i.e. they look smart but not too flash, you get a solid drive, a well-finished interior, good fuel economy and all the controls for me fall naturally to hand.
I'm not sure that I would buy a diesel but I have long been an admirer of the Golf GTI since the mk5 and as a smart, quick enough all-rounder that wouldn't look out of place in any setting and not look too tragic for a man pushing 40 to drive, it's still a tough act to beat!
Likewise, I have been considering a dual cab pickup recently and visually the Amarok appeals to me most, especially with the powerful V6 TDI engine that they are planning to put in. Damn you Volkswagen!
Are Audi also guilty by association? TT RS, RS6 and R8 are all stunning cars that I would love to own.
Not so bothered about Skodas and Seats to be honest. Decent enough cars I suppose and it would be a shame for the Czech and Spanish workforces to suffer if VW had to axe either brand in order to survive post emissions-scandal.
This whole affair is a shame because I thought in the past that the Germans had shown some integrity in addressing safety issues with the original Audi TT and Mercedes A-Class (unfortunately too late for some people on the TT).
In contrast, the big three American firms have a long history of negligence and contempt for their customers and covering up major safety issues with no reprimand from the American government. Ford Pinto/Explorer? Chevrolet Corvair? Exploding Jeeps?...oh and how about the 2 star Euro NCAP Mustang? Disgraceful!
So, would you still have a problem with buying a VW group vehicle in light of their morally dubious behavior or would you still be happy to buy one if it ticked all the boxes?
Edited by white_goodman on Friday 17th February 14:19
kambites said:
If the VAG diesel engines were actually any good in the real-world, I'd agree but but that isn't what they did. They produced an engine which is absolutely awful (in terms of NOx emissions) under all conditions except the very specialist test situation.
The tests may be far from perfect and I agree that many manufacturers have been pushing for test performance at the expense of real-world concerns, but the VW issue is rather different.
I agree. The tests probably aren't as realistic as they could be but the issue isn't CO2 levels, it's the unacceptably high levels of very poisonous NOX. Of course, greater efficiency tends to mean higher temperatures and more NOX but deliberately choking an engine under test conditions to pass the NOX test when the reality is many times over the legal NOX limit is surely criminally negligent (if negligence is the right word). So, Kambites would you still buy a VAG group car in light of this or would it put you off?The tests may be far from perfect and I agree that many manufacturers have been pushing for test performance at the expense of real-world concerns, but the VW issue is rather different.
Have the traditionally strong residual values of VWs, especially diesels been that affected? I can't say that I have noticed and the lease deals still seem pretty competitive but then I'm not in the market for this type of car, so I haven't been paying much attention to values.
blearyeyedboy said:
To be honest, I think diesel is doing regardless of its true merits (or lack of them). Hybrid do a lot better in the real world than many people expect and diesel will be increasingly taxed, because of political pursue and public perception as much as because of any evidence. You'll be lucky to get within a few miles of any major city with a diesel car in a few years. I might be shot down for this, but I think hybrid will be the way to go- we just need to hope that they can be made a little more fun.
Not sure about hybrids. Great for urban driving obviously but on the motorway from personal experience, a Prius was inferior to a low capacity turbo petrol (Golf 1.2 TFSI) and a diesel (Focus 1.5 TDCI). You're lugging around a lot of extra weight in batteries at the end of the day, which is dead weight unless you're running on electric power.I see the appeal on high performance cars. Torque fill and zero emissions urban driving but for someone pounding up and down the motorways, I'm not so sure. You usually get a CVT box too, which kind of kills the fun. Can a conventional auto or manual even work with an electric motor?
ZX10R NIN said:
People will still buy a VAG product the emissions makes no difference at the end of the day people may pretend to be outraged but they really don't care that's why VAG sales are up 17% in the US with Porsche Cayenne/Q7 diesels being a big part of that.
Where are you getting that "fact" from? VW/Audi/Porsche have not been allowed to sell diesel vehicles in USA or Canada since September 2015. Look on any USA/Canadian manufacturer websites and you will see no mention of diesel-powered vehicles. That's pretty much going to have killed any expansion of market share surely?What I'm not sure if everyone is quite understanding is they didn't just massage the figures to look good in tests. CO2 emissions don't even come into it. Anyway, CO2 emissions are roughly proportional to fuel economy, so even if you understate your emissions, ultimately you'll use more fuel, which you pay tax on so you'll get taxed on it anyway. Yes, CO2 contributes to the greenhouse effect and we should try to keep emissions down but it could well be that CO2 levels in the atmosphere have actually reduced compared to 100 years ago and in terms of health, CO2 is pretty harmless.
The government were stupid because they were focussed on CO2 emissions (fairly harmless), which massively favour diesel cars as they burn lean and encouraged everyone to buy diesel as a result. What they should have looked at were NOX emsissions, which cause acid rain, harm natural habitats and cause respiratory problems and maybe even cancers. Due to significantly higher temperatures and pressures in diesel engines, less CO2 but significantly more NOX is produced. NOX emissions are poisonous and limits are put in place to protect human health. In reality, the VW diesels tested were 40 times over the legal NOX limit!
I suffered badly with asthma as a kid but it went away in my teenage years and into adulthood. It has recenly come back in my 30s however and although I can't blame it on higher levels of NOX in the air for sure and specifically VW diesels, it certainly could be a factor. What VW did doesn't sit right with me and I think they were more than just a little bit naughty and although I admire some of their vehicles (Golf GTI, several Audis), I'm still not sure whether morally I should buy their vehicles, even the petrol ones.
Debaser said:
Are NOx levels higher now than they were 15-20 years ago?
That's a very good question and I honestly don't know. It's a mystery to me why my asthma has relapsed but the number of diesel vehicles on UK roads has increased in that time, so it's a plausible theory and I would expect ambient levels of NOX, especially in cities to be higher as a result. It also causes smog, so in areas that get smog if it's a worse problem than it was before then that would be one indication.Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff