Bosch 044 ..This explains a lot
Discussion
I was just on a website looking at the Bosch 044 and this is there description and recommendations for installation..
Description
"This is the popular Bosch Motorsports "044" fuel pump. These are inline Bosch competition fuel pumps, and it is generally recommend they be installed between the factory (or another aftermarket) in-tank fuel pump, and the fuel rail."
It seems that they are designed to be fed at pressure ( in series ) by another pump ... i would have installed a two pump system along time ago if i had known...:/
Description
"This is the popular Bosch Motorsports "044" fuel pump. These are inline Bosch competition fuel pumps, and it is generally recommend they be installed between the factory (or another aftermarket) in-tank fuel pump, and the fuel rail."
It seems that they are designed to be fed at pressure ( in series ) by another pump ... i would have installed a two pump system along time ago if i had known...:/
Hi Kevin, the swirl pot is for the track.. very twisty track at that....the pump only gets noisy when fuel is low..but really i want the swirl pot so that heavy cornering can be done on low fuel with safety...as i will have combine heavily baffled tank with pressurized swirl pot it should be a pretty sorted fuel delivery system...giving the 044 a helping hand with pressurized feed to combat noise on low fuel is a bonus.
Simon...how did you pressurize your fuel tank?...i have ordered a 7psi lifter pump and a 5psi regulator on the swirl pot return which equates to about 0.3 bar positive pressure...how does pressurizing the tank work with the newton inline breather?....it has +- 0.05 bar postive limit and a 0.0055 bar negative limit, so it is designed to keep it stabilized with normal air pressure.
I think knowing what i know now about the bosch 044 i definately would add a smaller pump to feed it...in fact when anybody does the pump upgrade i think it is a good idea to retain the stock pump to feed to 044....hmmmm...i wonder what NM did with all my stock pumps over the years :/
Simon...how did you pressurize your fuel tank?...i have ordered a 7psi lifter pump and a 5psi regulator on the swirl pot return which equates to about 0.3 bar positive pressure...how does pressurizing the tank work with the newton inline breather?....it has +- 0.05 bar postive limit and a 0.0055 bar negative limit, so it is designed to keep it stabilized with normal air pressure.
I think knowing what i know now about the bosch 044 i definately would add a smaller pump to feed it...in fact when anybody does the pump upgrade i think it is a good idea to retain the stock pump to feed to 044....hmmmm...i wonder what NM did with all my stock pumps over the years :/
Gadgeroonie said:
"This is the popular Bosch Motorsports "044" fuel pump. These are inline Bosch competition fuel pumps, and it is generally recommend they be installed between the factory (or another aftermarket) in-tank fuel pump, and the fuel rail."
that is how mine is plumbed in - I run 2 fuel pumps
a single 044 pump should be adequate for over 700 hp if plumbed in this way
that is how mine is plumbed in - I run 2 fuel pumps
a single 044 pump should be adequate for over 700 hp if plumbed in this way
..fair do to you Mike, you told me to put two fuel pumps along time ago, one feeding the other, i should have listened, i thought you were advising it as a upgrade for when i was going to go for Gt28RS, i didnt realise a bosch 044 is always meant to be fed by another pump..Edited by R0162 on Thursday 22 March 21:56
Volume does depend on pressure a bosch 044 can flow 260 ltr/hr at 3 bar but reduces to 200ltr/hr at 5 bar, that is when fed by another pump, when fed at atmospheric pressure they are rated at 200 ltr/hr @ 3 bar, big difference.
As Adrain stated atmospheric pressure is 1 bar, so by definition fuel pressure is 1 bar, but when we are talking about pressurizing we are talking about putting an aditional positive pressure in relation to atmospheric pressure.
This is the starting point, if you fill a tank with 1ft deep of fuel and put a hose to the outlet pointing staright up, the fuel would rise 1ft up the tube, to pressurize the tank above atmospheric, this would push the fuel much higher up the tube...
Flow does not matter so much with a swirl pot because the fuel gets returned to the pot, and as pressure increases with boost and less fuel gets returned and more fuel gets burned, the lifter pump will need to keep up..... but basically nobody stays on full throttle all the time, so the lifter pump and volume on swirl pot and return from regulator means the swirl pot always stays in front.
So i have a low pressure lifter which flows 165 ltr/hr and a 044 which flows 260 ltr/hr...this is ok for a swirl pot due to the design and the way a car is driven.
But when two pumps are inline, one pump feeding another.. i assume they have to flow the same..but like Andy says when a pump does not need to create 4 bar pressure it will flow more....a stand alone 044 at 4 bar when you put your foot down only flows 180ltrs/hour, if you have high boost 1.5 bar then the flow drops even more and so on... so seen as though the most critical time is when you are on the power and the fact that the flow reduces with pressure...then the feed pump finds it easy to keep up...so although a m400 pump flows less at 3 bar it may flow more at 0.5 bar to what the 044 needs....
but as you can tell this is all guesstimates and talking theoretically...i think when linking the feed pump to the 044...the different fuel flows at different pressures need to be thought through.....to make sure the 044 is not going to be restricted by the feed pump..because if it is going to be restrictive then you are better running straight from the tank at atmospheric at least then you are sure of 200ltr/hr at 3 bar....
I am beginning to wonder if my 165ltr/hr lifter pump is enough...i would appreciate if somebody could follow me on this line of thought because it is not scientifical..this is all about working the flow in relation to fuel used this way i can work out the amount of fuel getting returned and add that to my lifter pump...
When i did some rough guesstimates it was based on the 044 flowing 200 ltr/hr...but i didnt take into account that by feeding the 044 at pressure its flow has just increased to 260 ltr/hr at 3 bar ....
... but at least at 4 bar when i have my foot down that flow will be reduced to 230 ltr/hr... and the lifter is 165 ltr/hr at 7psi, i assume it will flow a bit more at 5psi...plus the returned fuel from the 044 will be getting added to that flow.
So with a swirl pot the critical part of this is return flow from the 044, I do not know the real maths so i have to just do some like for like comparisons...and first i think .."is there any way my car can use 260 ltr/hr?"... thats nearly 5 full tanks in 1 hour...i am thinking not....
So lets err on the safe side and say 6mpg going full whack around top gear track, thats 50 litres per 100km - 0.5 litre per km, thats 1.5 litre for every lap as the track is 3km long.
Lets err on the safe side even further and say 2 litre per lap, thats 1 min 20 per lap, so a full tank gets 30 laps...i think i am way safe on that..so a full tank lasts 40 minutes...thats 60 litres in 40 minutes...so lets say 90 ltr/hr fuel used.... so if the 044 is flowing 230 ltr/hr at 4 bar..then it would stand to reason that 140 ltr/hr gets returned??...
( on a side note.....With understanding the amount of fuel getting returned and constantly recirculated it is easy to understand why the fuel can get heated from underhood temps and local coolant pipes.... and I am better understanding why it had such an effect on performance when i reduced underhood temps and heat insulated the fuel return pipe, tank and the fuel lines.
When i say affect on performance... my power loss on scorching hot days used to be noticeable.. i used put it all down to air intake temps and IC...but soon discovered hot expanded fuel was playing just as big part in power loss)
I think i am well covered with the lifter and swirl pot system but we need Justin to come along and do the maths with having two pumps inline, as without the return and volume of swirl pot..then i would think the feed pump needs to flow the same or better than the 044....and you can not use just any pump as a feed for the 044....
As Adrain stated atmospheric pressure is 1 bar, so by definition fuel pressure is 1 bar, but when we are talking about pressurizing we are talking about putting an aditional positive pressure in relation to atmospheric pressure.
This is the starting point, if you fill a tank with 1ft deep of fuel and put a hose to the outlet pointing staright up, the fuel would rise 1ft up the tube, to pressurize the tank above atmospheric, this would push the fuel much higher up the tube...
Flow does not matter so much with a swirl pot because the fuel gets returned to the pot, and as pressure increases with boost and less fuel gets returned and more fuel gets burned, the lifter pump will need to keep up..... but basically nobody stays on full throttle all the time, so the lifter pump and volume on swirl pot and return from regulator means the swirl pot always stays in front.
So i have a low pressure lifter which flows 165 ltr/hr and a 044 which flows 260 ltr/hr...this is ok for a swirl pot due to the design and the way a car is driven.
But when two pumps are inline, one pump feeding another.. i assume they have to flow the same..but like Andy says when a pump does not need to create 4 bar pressure it will flow more....a stand alone 044 at 4 bar when you put your foot down only flows 180ltrs/hour, if you have high boost 1.5 bar then the flow drops even more and so on... so seen as though the most critical time is when you are on the power and the fact that the flow reduces with pressure...then the feed pump finds it easy to keep up...so although a m400 pump flows less at 3 bar it may flow more at 0.5 bar to what the 044 needs....
but as you can tell this is all guesstimates and talking theoretically...i think when linking the feed pump to the 044...the different fuel flows at different pressures need to be thought through.....to make sure the 044 is not going to be restricted by the feed pump..because if it is going to be restrictive then you are better running straight from the tank at atmospheric at least then you are sure of 200ltr/hr at 3 bar....
I am beginning to wonder if my 165ltr/hr lifter pump is enough...i would appreciate if somebody could follow me on this line of thought because it is not scientifical..this is all about working the flow in relation to fuel used this way i can work out the amount of fuel getting returned and add that to my lifter pump...
When i did some rough guesstimates it was based on the 044 flowing 200 ltr/hr...but i didnt take into account that by feeding the 044 at pressure its flow has just increased to 260 ltr/hr at 3 bar ....
... but at least at 4 bar when i have my foot down that flow will be reduced to 230 ltr/hr... and the lifter is 165 ltr/hr at 7psi, i assume it will flow a bit more at 5psi...plus the returned fuel from the 044 will be getting added to that flow.So with a swirl pot the critical part of this is return flow from the 044, I do not know the real maths so i have to just do some like for like comparisons...and first i think .."is there any way my car can use 260 ltr/hr?"... thats nearly 5 full tanks in 1 hour...i am thinking not....
So lets err on the safe side and say 6mpg going full whack around top gear track, thats 50 litres per 100km - 0.5 litre per km, thats 1.5 litre for every lap as the track is 3km long.
Lets err on the safe side even further and say 2 litre per lap, thats 1 min 20 per lap, so a full tank gets 30 laps...i think i am way safe on that..so a full tank lasts 40 minutes...thats 60 litres in 40 minutes...so lets say 90 ltr/hr fuel used.... so if the 044 is flowing 230 ltr/hr at 4 bar..then it would stand to reason that 140 ltr/hr gets returned??...
( on a side note.....With understanding the amount of fuel getting returned and constantly recirculated it is easy to understand why the fuel can get heated from underhood temps and local coolant pipes.... and I am better understanding why it had such an effect on performance when i reduced underhood temps and heat insulated the fuel return pipe, tank and the fuel lines.
When i say affect on performance... my power loss on scorching hot days used to be noticeable.. i used put it all down to air intake temps and IC...but soon discovered hot expanded fuel was playing just as big part in power loss)
I think i am well covered with the lifter and swirl pot system but we need Justin to come along and do the maths with having two pumps inline, as without the return and volume of swirl pot..then i would think the feed pump needs to flow the same or better than the 044....and you can not use just any pump as a feed for the 044....
Edited by R0162 on Friday 23 March 12:46
Mike Tuckwood said:
Double 044's seems like massive overkill to me, adding weight complexity and huge amounts of heat into the fuel for no obvious gain.
I've not heard of anyone feeding an 044 with an in-line pump before
Those flow rates seem close on the 044 but are slightly off Chris.
My Bosch sourced figures for the 044 show:-
1Bar 258 Ltr/Hr (10.1 Amps)
2Bar 276 Ltr/Hr (10.8 Amps)
3Bar 264 Ltr/Hr (11.2 Amps)
4Bar 252 Ltr/Hr (11.5 Amps)
5Bar 225 Ltr/Hr (12.5 Amps)
Good fuel system Design and planning helps a lot, most noise from pumps is generated by cavitation, which can mostly be avoided by ensuring that feed to the pump is as big and 'flow friendly' as possible.
Mike.
I agree Mike....i dont think the 6mm hole in the filter helps matters with the feed being flow friendly..but surely offering a pressurized feed is better...I've not heard of anyone feeding an 044 with an in-line pump before
Those flow rates seem close on the 044 but are slightly off Chris.
My Bosch sourced figures for the 044 show:-
1Bar 258 Ltr/Hr (10.1 Amps)
2Bar 276 Ltr/Hr (10.8 Amps)
3Bar 264 Ltr/Hr (11.2 Amps)
4Bar 252 Ltr/Hr (11.5 Amps)
5Bar 225 Ltr/Hr (12.5 Amps)
Good fuel system Design and planning helps a lot, most noise from pumps is generated by cavitation, which can mostly be avoided by ensuring that feed to the pump is as big and 'flow friendly' as possible.
Mike.
Those figures i got were off a website...probably not accurate...are those figures you posted as a stand alone or fed by another pump?
Most websites say the same and recommend the 044 is fed by another pump..i assume this recommendation must come from Bosch?
I think the guys with double bosch 044 do it more as a safety measure...as opposed to overkill..i.e. if one pump goes the car can still run off the other one?
Nice info james Cheers....it all makes sense and pretty much agrees with my thoughts and concerns from my above posts.... but in a more technical/factual way 
So in the tank we get about 0.03bar pressure with 0.5m deep fuel....makes sense, so that explains why the pump starts getting noisy as the fuel gets low, as the pressure is dropping in relation...i think based on this i should be ok with 5 psi in the swirl pot, as it equates to roughly 10 times more feed pressure than a full tank..
These facet lifters seem very reliable and robust and it will hopefully help extend the life of the 044...no contingency in place for if a pump goes, unless i were to put 2 lifters and 2 044...without doing this what other failsafe options are there? i suppose having a backup of each is the only way..?
So in the tank we get about 0.03bar pressure with 0.5m deep fuel....makes sense, so that explains why the pump starts getting noisy as the fuel gets low, as the pressure is dropping in relation...i think based on this i should be ok with 5 psi in the swirl pot, as it equates to roughly 10 times more feed pressure than a full tank..
These facet lifters seem very reliable and robust and it will hopefully help extend the life of the 044...no contingency in place for if a pump goes, unless i were to put 2 lifters and 2 044...without doing this what other failsafe options are there? i suppose having a backup of each is the only way..?
Mike Tuckwood said:
That's a nice bit of kit, my concerns relating to heat revolve around the premise that Turbocharged cars are all about good thermal management. The amount of heat that the 044 can generate (with that amount of current draw) will invariably be passing over into the fuel.
We have done a few cars now where we have used less powerful pumps, and have installed in-line fuel coolers.
Mike.
I totally agree with the importance of keeping the fuel cool...and is something which is often overlooked...We have done a few cars now where we have used less powerful pumps, and have installed in-line fuel coolers.
Mike.
I your going to put a pump inside the tank, i think it may be better to buy the pro alloy tank with removeable lid...i looked into making a removeable lid on mine but by the time you finished with all the messing around and fabrication it, i think it is better to just buy the tank with it already done...
the only reason i did not go this route is because i wanted a tapered tank design so that even a small volume of fuel can keep well above outlet level and to give room under tank for filters, pumps and easy pipe routing.
Are you also going to be putting the swirl pot in the side pod? i thought about this with regrds to safety issues..i.e. having everything to do with fuel within the perimeter of the chassis or within the tank is safer, but then i thought well most cars have there fuel pump in the side pod anyway so its no different, and also the air will help keep fuel cool, as i have read many times about how the fuel is used to cool the 044 but never with regards to what will remove heat from the fuel..
I measured 65kmh airflow in the side pod when travelling 130kmh.. so mixed with the ali pot and 044 in the side pod it will surely help keep the temps down.
the only reason i did not go this route is because i wanted a tapered tank design so that even a small volume of fuel can keep well above outlet level and to give room under tank for filters, pumps and easy pipe routing.
Are you also going to be putting the swirl pot in the side pod? i thought about this with regrds to safety issues..i.e. having everything to do with fuel within the perimeter of the chassis or within the tank is safer, but then i thought well most cars have there fuel pump in the side pod anyway so its no different, and also the air will help keep fuel cool, as i have read many times about how the fuel is used to cool the 044 but never with regards to what will remove heat from the fuel..
I measured 65kmh airflow in the side pod when travelling 130kmh.. so mixed with the ali pot and 044 in the side pod it will surely help keep the temps down.
Andy,
I did not see that 2nd pic before..lol.. i would have liked to have seen it in action with the lid off, i bet the top of that pot was squirting fuel like a pressure washer
So seen as though you were using 2 pumps for lifters, you must also have had another 2x044 after the swirl pot..outside of the tank..? to create high pressure to the engine..?
Edited....due to the fact i assumed you had used 2 x044 as lifters,, i am sure i saw another thread where you were talking about using 2x044 as lifters..have you changed the system?
I did not see that 2nd pic before..lol.. i would have liked to have seen it in action with the lid off, i bet the top of that pot was squirting fuel like a pressure washer
So seen as though you were using 2 pumps for lifters, you must also have had another 2x044 after the swirl pot..outside of the tank..? to create high pressure to the engine..?
Edited....due to the fact i assumed you had used 2 x044 as lifters,, i am sure i saw another thread where you were talking about using 2x044 as lifters..have you changed the system?
Edited by R0162 on Monday 26th March 18:11
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