Just joined! Engine removed! what mods (if any)?
Discussion
Hi to everyone reading this, I have just joined the forum, having read with interest for a number of years the comments other have made about the incorrigible Noble M12. Now at long last I have bought one! I tried the very same 6 years ago, and at that time I could afford a 2.5 but admired the 3R so thought I’d wait, then 3 years ago I tried again but just couldn’t find an example that I liked (I did but it was sold from under me) and bought a Porsche in the meantime (yawn). In truth it has seemed even harder finding an example now than then, and prices seem pretty much unchanged (despite cars getting older).
The people on this forum have provided a wealth and depth of information, without which the whole process (of buying a Noble) would have been that much more difficult. I am slowly working my way through the topics (on page 105 so far!), but I have an initial question. The gear change is sometimes difficult when the car is warm. The Garage (Bespoke) as part of the purchase are removing the engine and sending the gearbox to a specialized company to be checked and repaired if/as necessary. At the same time they are replacing the clutch.
Whilst the engine is removed I thought perhaps it might be a good opportunity to carry out some modifications, but wouldn’t really know which! Reading through the forum I was thinking possibly the gear linkage and tunnel cooling Mod but is there anything else that comes to mind?
The car is a 2003 GT0-3R 45,000 Miles and has NMS exhaust/ hard pipes/ alloy header / intercooler / silicone hoses/ fuel pump done already. It has also been to Noble Motorsport and remapped to 415 BHP.
Thanks everybody on this forum for all the effort and time spent guiding people such as myself to join the Noble clan! I am in North Devon if there is anyone nearby.
One last thing, you may recognise the car as it belonged to Forum Member Slider 21.
The people on this forum have provided a wealth and depth of information, without which the whole process (of buying a Noble) would have been that much more difficult. I am slowly working my way through the topics (on page 105 so far!), but I have an initial question. The gear change is sometimes difficult when the car is warm. The Garage (Bespoke) as part of the purchase are removing the engine and sending the gearbox to a specialized company to be checked and repaired if/as necessary. At the same time they are replacing the clutch.
Whilst the engine is removed I thought perhaps it might be a good opportunity to carry out some modifications, but wouldn’t really know which! Reading through the forum I was thinking possibly the gear linkage and tunnel cooling Mod but is there anything else that comes to mind?
The car is a 2003 GT0-3R 45,000 Miles and has NMS exhaust/ hard pipes/ alloy header / intercooler / silicone hoses/ fuel pump done already. It has also been to Noble Motorsport and remapped to 415 BHP.
Thanks everybody on this forum for all the effort and time spent guiding people such as myself to join the Noble clan! I am in North Devon if there is anyone nearby.
One last thing, you may recognise the car as it belonged to Forum Member Slider 21.
Why thank you Bernhund! And Bondy, thank you for the ideas and recommendations. I am not sure about more power, my mind boggles when I read about the power some people manage to produce and reliably (in addition to other mods like the carbon fibre pieces being made by members - very gifted). When I went for a test drive I was already grinning like a Cheshire cat throughout and I think if it had gone any faster I might have slunk all the way into the foot well. I will look to have the gauges fitted however and perhaps the connections for an oil cooler (for the gearbox). Do you think this is worth doing at the currently rated power of 415 BHP? Likewise would you look to have the gearbox upgraded at the current power output?
Many thanks again for your ideas, I know time is precious and the more established members are probably having to repeat themselves over and over again for the benefit of us wide eyed and excitable newcomers!
Many thanks again for your ideas, I know time is precious and the more established members are probably having to repeat themselves over and over again for the benefit of us wide eyed and excitable newcomers!
Hi GTO600 - Wonderful, what great news to hear someone so close by has a Noble, and having had the car for so long. I have just moved from Ilfracombe to Roborough (other side of High Bickington), so am very near your good self. I am amazed I haven't seen your car out and about, I have been back in Barnstaple area for the past 15 years or so!(you would have noticed me had I seen you, as I would have been running down the road after you just to get a look!). Can I ask where you get the car serviced? I would love to meet, see your car, and pry some valuable knowledge from you! Perhaps for a beer at the Tarka Inn (although I think its called something else now).
Thanks Tuxman, it’s been a long time coming and I have admired everything about these cars for what feels like a millenium. I am a little nervous about the car having its engine removed and put back in again before I have even taken possession of it, but I do have confidence in the people at Bespoke. I have not met Skip as yet but Mark and Martin are good people I think (I have enjoyed meeting them both). Andygtt and Bondy, thank you both for your insight. In all honesty I don’t think adding to the power any further is really feasible for me and I was genuinely staggered at the performance as it stands now. I do appreciate (reading through the forum) that many people have begun their noble career feeling very much the same way, only then seeking more speed as the car becomes more familiar (and its fun and interesting getting there). I think from both your responses I might ask about an upgraded clutch however and the oil cooler adapters (you know just in case!).
GTO600 you should be careful what you wish for, before long you will have wished I had remained in obscurity! Really its great to have you in the same neighbourhood and I really hope we get chance to meet a long the way. I will do my best not to be a constant irritation at the outset (but knowing now how involved you are with these cars that’s going to be difficult!).
Thanks everyone for a warm welcome and for your thoughts to date.
GTO600 you should be careful what you wish for, before long you will have wished I had remained in obscurity! Really its great to have you in the same neighbourhood and I really hope we get chance to meet a long the way. I will do my best not to be a constant irritation at the outset (but knowing now how involved you are with these cars that’s going to be difficult!).
Thanks everyone for a warm welcome and for your thoughts to date.
Hi SteveGTO3 - I have to pick up on your comment about the Noble Forum! As an outsider looking in (but now edging my way in), the forum is remarkable for many reasons. Just look at the first 5 people to welcome me - Bernlund, Andygtt, GTO600, Mgbond, and Tuxman; between them they have been on the forum and contributing for a cumulative period of over 50 years!! In addition between them they have made 25,234 posts!! This is just the first 5 who happened to respond, but there are many similar long standing contributors, constantly taking an interest and helping others. I am not aware of any other forum with such longevity and passion. Another remarkable thing, is the good humour and good will that runs throughout the forum. I am determined to read through all the posts and I am only in page 115 odd, but rarely is there any hard feelings or discord even when there is disagreement (the only slight fracas was about adding an additional radiator to stop water boiling in the header tank and around the turbos on shut down - I think that‘s what was being discussed, a bit above my head!).
All of this effort, interest and hard work has enabled the Noble to be far more, far better than it was even at the outset (and that was pretty damn good). It has also ensured it's longevity and popularity.
I could go on and on, the skills and knowledge of people - an unbelievable real and tangible source of information (that probably you would normally pay for). I hope to learn a great deal more about how a car functions, how they are set up, and take care of my own car and carry out repairs myself, and the noble forum allows me this luxury (and it’s a great car too).
Which leads me on to responding to some of the other comments (thank you swankbaton, captainjp and sundance002). I know there is a very good chance I will eat humble pie, but going beyond the current output seems unlikely for me because just taking care of what I have seems exciting enough. As I say I have so much to learn just about the intricacies of how a car functions (currently I wouldn’t be able to identify every item in the engine bay). To carry out some repairs etc myself would be a great achievement! I am going to add replacing the headlights onto my list though, that doesn’t scare me too much, and talk to Bespoke about the clutch.
Thanks all!
All of this effort, interest and hard work has enabled the Noble to be far more, far better than it was even at the outset (and that was pretty damn good). It has also ensured it's longevity and popularity.
I could go on and on, the skills and knowledge of people - an unbelievable real and tangible source of information (that probably you would normally pay for). I hope to learn a great deal more about how a car functions, how they are set up, and take care of my own car and carry out repairs myself, and the noble forum allows me this luxury (and it’s a great car too).
Which leads me on to responding to some of the other comments (thank you swankbaton, captainjp and sundance002). I know there is a very good chance I will eat humble pie, but going beyond the current output seems unlikely for me because just taking care of what I have seems exciting enough. As I say I have so much to learn just about the intricacies of how a car functions (currently I wouldn’t be able to identify every item in the engine bay). To carry out some repairs etc myself would be a great achievement! I am going to add replacing the headlights onto my list though, that doesn’t scare me too much, and talk to Bespoke about the clutch.
Thanks all!
Thanks for bringing that to my attention Tuxman I will check that out. Not a member of Facebook so would not have known otherwise.
Bonds, can that be done? do the valve springs, increase the boost and you can have 500BHP? Forget everything I have said so far that is tempting! Can the springs be done when the engine is in place? and likewise are the turbo's accessible with the engine in? When you talk about 'this' engine - do you mean the one in my car or these engines generally? Should not be asking these questions I haven't even got the car yet, and I have been banging on about how I am more than happy with 415bhp! What about insurance cover, does that become untenable if you modify the car this much?
So much to learn and like swankbaton says this is but the first chapter!
Bonds, can that be done? do the valve springs, increase the boost and you can have 500BHP? Forget everything I have said so far that is tempting! Can the springs be done when the engine is in place? and likewise are the turbo's accessible with the engine in? When you talk about 'this' engine - do you mean the one in my car or these engines generally? Should not be asking these questions I haven't even got the car yet, and I have been banging on about how I am more than happy with 415bhp! What about insurance cover, does that become untenable if you modify the car this much?
So much to learn and like swankbaton says this is but the first chapter!
I have read a lot about uprating nobles to 500/600 even 700 bhp here on this forum, and whilst I have read avidly about what people have done to achieve this, a lot of it goes over my head. Actually taking an engine apart to modify it is way beyond my capability (so far......).
But, what about the midrange. Say a stock car with improved intercooler and exhaust such as my own (and most seem to have had this done), what power could you achieve by increasing the boost whereby no other modifications are needed either in cooling, gearbox mods or clutch, and still have a fairly stable car?
It would be really interesting if one of the guru's (that would be you lot) - did a list, say 400bhp, 450bhp,500bhp 550bhp etc and so forth and wrote alongside what parts would require attention as you go up the scale. Or is this just showing my naivety?
I wish I would stop talking about more power.....
But, what about the midrange. Say a stock car with improved intercooler and exhaust such as my own (and most seem to have had this done), what power could you achieve by increasing the boost whereby no other modifications are needed either in cooling, gearbox mods or clutch, and still have a fairly stable car?
It would be really interesting if one of the guru's (that would be you lot) - did a list, say 400bhp, 450bhp,500bhp 550bhp etc and so forth and wrote alongside what parts would require attention as you go up the scale. Or is this just showing my naivety?
I wish I would stop talking about more power.....
Okay, this is all beginning to make much more sense! I am really getting some benefit from you all already! When you talk about Intercooler you mean another one for the gearbox? Hence get the tails done while the gearbox is out. Valve springs can be one in situ (not sure what that entails exactly though), and you mention Turbo's - do they need to be bigger or just improved? Its impressive this engine can give up so much power without been modified itself. Is the standard gearbox not capable of handling 500bhp? I think this is the stumbling block for me at the very least. Bespoke I think will allow me to pay additional funds to upgrade the clutch (over and above the one they would currently fit), but the gearbox is a bit more of a grey area, in so much if it needs repairs they would look to doing this to a standard spec, and trying to negotiate a price to uprate it would be less clear cut I am guessing. They are following this thread and have said are more than happy to discuss any of the points raised.
I wonder what the cost would be to have the gearbox uprated even if turns out to be okay, I will still have saved a bit not paying for its removal.
Chris.
I wonder what the cost would be to have the gearbox uprated even if turns out to be okay, I will still have saved a bit not paying for its removal.
Chris.
Hi Blue3r and thanks for bringing my feet back on the ground, I was in this haze of blur and fog wandering around the halls of power! Gosh, where have I been? not 500hp not 600hp but an appetite reaching to, well no limit. Enjoy the car, do nothing, save your money - music to my ears, and exactly where I began.
Blue3r is right - isn't he? Am I not?
Nonetheless can I just have a recap of what I have learnt so far (because I would hate to think anyone thinks I have been wasting their time).
This is where I am I think.
The car has a larger intercooler and upgraded exhaust and fuel pump already.
Looking ahead to keep any options open (and whilst the engine is out) it is worth:
Upgrading the clutch
Having tails put on the gearbox (for intercooler)
Upgrading the Gearbox
Then should I wish to increase power output to 500HP in the future (God forbid!) I need to alter the valve springs, fit an intercooler for the gearbox, increase the boost and hey presto that’s me with the wobbly knees!
In the meantime :
Fit extra gauges
HID headlight bulbs
I think there is a middle ground to be had, try and look at the preparation for the future , although I cannot see affording 2k right now for an updated gearbox (I have to pay for the car first!), otherwise the rest I think is feasible.
Not worry too much about the rest of it for now, there’s plenty of time.
Excellent - this thread has been a wonderful beginning for me and I thank you all for your attention to the questions I have been asking.
What was that about bigger turbos’?
Blue3r is right - isn't he? Am I not?
Nonetheless can I just have a recap of what I have learnt so far (because I would hate to think anyone thinks I have been wasting their time).
This is where I am I think.
The car has a larger intercooler and upgraded exhaust and fuel pump already.
Looking ahead to keep any options open (and whilst the engine is out) it is worth:
Upgrading the clutch
Having tails put on the gearbox (for intercooler)
Upgrading the Gearbox
Then should I wish to increase power output to 500HP in the future (God forbid!) I need to alter the valve springs, fit an intercooler for the gearbox, increase the boost and hey presto that’s me with the wobbly knees!
In the meantime :
Fit extra gauges
HID headlight bulbs
I think there is a middle ground to be had, try and look at the preparation for the future , although I cannot see affording 2k right now for an updated gearbox (I have to pay for the car first!), otherwise the rest I think is feasible.
Not worry too much about the rest of it for now, there’s plenty of time.
Excellent - this thread has been a wonderful beginning for me and I thank you all for your attention to the questions I have been asking.
What was that about bigger turbos’?
Thanks everyone, of course I can take no credit for how it looks, all done by other hard working owners. I was hoping that with all these bright colours they would kind of shine through the dirt, save me having to clean it! I note a lot of engine bays always look very clean, but that's down to hard graft is it?
Two of you have mentioned the floor and it is one area that remains something of a misnomer to me (I guess its hard taking photos underneath), not really having any idea what's going on. I can see the floor is flat but are these simply sheets of metal all the way down screwed to the chassis? I have read quite a bit on the forum about water getting trapped etc and the floor being re-sealed. Are there instances of the chassis rusting through entirely? I am a bit unsure if Bespoke will be going anywhere near these as part of doing the gearbox/clutch (but hopefully will have checked it before selling). I will use the car in the wet occasionally I am sure, but generally I am hoping to go out on dry days only, but all year round (so that'll be all of 7 days then).
The gear linkage too is a great heads up and I will ask about this for sure, just how much of an improvement is the modified cable?
Thanks again everyone, really appreciate it, I am getting so many leads already and I have the time/opportunity to consider them all while it is in Bespokes good hands.
Chris.
PS Hi green3r - I shall be taking everything you say with a pinch of salt from now on!
Two of you have mentioned the floor and it is one area that remains something of a misnomer to me (I guess its hard taking photos underneath), not really having any idea what's going on. I can see the floor is flat but are these simply sheets of metal all the way down screwed to the chassis? I have read quite a bit on the forum about water getting trapped etc and the floor being re-sealed. Are there instances of the chassis rusting through entirely? I am a bit unsure if Bespoke will be going anywhere near these as part of doing the gearbox/clutch (but hopefully will have checked it before selling). I will use the car in the wet occasionally I am sure, but generally I am hoping to go out on dry days only, but all year round (so that'll be all of 7 days then).
The gear linkage too is a great heads up and I will ask about this for sure, just how much of an improvement is the modified cable?
Thanks again everyone, really appreciate it, I am getting so many leads already and I have the time/opportunity to consider them all while it is in Bespokes good hands.
Chris.
PS Hi green3r - I shall be taking everything you say with a pinch of salt from now on!
Hi Andygtt, It has had a lot of love and attention from what I can gather. It also has the benefit of being serviced every year by Kerridges, Bespoke or Mole Valley. Also it has some Nitron dampers with Eibach Springs (don't know much about that), Dry Sump and the tunnel cooling mod done. The power was uprated at Noble Motorsport in 2011. So all in all I am very fortunate. I was torn about buying the car because it had done 45,000 miles and there was a car at Kerridges but it had only done 10,000 miles (same age). Indeed Bespoke had a 2006 example with 19,0000 miles too. The price difference between the one I chose and the other 2 was about £4,000. As a layman I was drawn to low mileage and/or newer plate but speaking with Bespoke and learning what I had from the forum that mods are okay (desirable even), and cost a great deal when you have to start from scratch, made me choose this one (but at the time it was a difficult choice).
I do hope I have done the right thing!?!
Chris
I do hope I have done the right thing!?!
Chris
Hi mrpbailey - can I ask how long the gearbox lasted once you uprated the power? Did you use it on track days at all? Is it worth just adding cooling for the stock gearbox? Thanks for the contribution especially as it mirrors my set-up closely.
Blue3r - thanks for the tip about using the other facilities on site, I have used the search function a great deal in the past but hadn't understood the bookmark system - very handy. I use to save the web page of any post I was interested in and rename it!
mgbond, thanks for the additional input, right now I am trying mostly to allocate whatever funds to those items that are most useful with the engine having being removed, only because funds are in short supply having just bought the car. In fact I don't really have much in the way of funds left, but do appreciate this is still an opportunity in many regards and must try and make the best use of it I can.
Cheers Chris.
Blue3r - thanks for the tip about using the other facilities on site, I have used the search function a great deal in the past but hadn't understood the bookmark system - very handy. I use to save the web page of any post I was interested in and rename it!
mgbond, thanks for the additional input, right now I am trying mostly to allocate whatever funds to those items that are most useful with the engine having being removed, only because funds are in short supply having just bought the car. In fact I don't really have much in the way of funds left, but do appreciate this is still an opportunity in many regards and must try and make the best use of it I can.
Cheers Chris.
Thanks for getting back to me. It's a good point that if it has failed in some manner or other, that perhaps it has other worn parts also and could do with a newer item and ideally having had the strengthening mods. This goes well beyond the remit agreed with Bespoke however and I don't think its an option. The problem could also be the clutch rather than the gearbox, in which case the gearbox will have simply benefited from an inspection. I don't intend to go on track either which may help keep down the wear and tear (but then at the outset of this post I did say I was not interested in increasing the power output either and yet that's all I seemed to have talked about!).
All thing's considered however, from what I learned, I do think a modified/strengthened gearbox is money well spent on a car such as my own with a modest power increase.
I must say everyday sees to be passing very slowly, the beginning of November (when I should be able to collect the car) seems an age away.
Chris.
All thing's considered however, from what I learned, I do think a modified/strengthened gearbox is money well spent on a car such as my own with a modest power increase.
I must say everyday sees to be passing very slowly, the beginning of November (when I should be able to collect the car) seems an age away.
Chris.
Tuxman - your right! I will speak to Bespoke about this and see if we cannot come to some arrangement. Much of it (as always) is to some degree about available funds, but this thread was all about (in the beginning!) what best use to make of the fact the engine had to be removed anyway. You mentioned earlier it was about £2,000 to get the gearbox strengthened, did that include getting the gearbox out, or just for the work to the gearbox? Reading the forum I have heard about a chap who works his magic on gearboxes - do you know who people are referring to? Thanks Chris.
Tuxman - please stop talking about more power! As regards the Gearbox I was hoping it was the other way around 2k including removing it. I note from previous posts that 5th gear is often the problem, why would that be? Anyway I will discuss with Bespoke and to some degree we need to know what the existing problem is first and take it from there. It would seem however, if at all possible, to get the gearbox done is a sensible option in the circumstances.
Great Photo on the Grid, I think I have seen that reproduced elsewhere. Please keep me in mind if you organise a trip next year (I won't get under your feet!). Not sure I'll be on the track (not done anything like that before) but it would be great to see how it all works, see other cars and meet other Noble owners.
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