Is There a Market for a Mid-Engine Coupe Kit?
Poll: Is There a Market for a Mid-Engine Coupe Kit?
Total Members Polled: 36
Discussion
Off the back of the Stoneleigh thread, here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I'm interested in knowing whether there is interest in a kit, mid-engine coupe. A modern Libra, if you like.
These guys do their Mini (and could potentially offer other bodies): speed3automotive.co.uk
But I can't really think of any others that are available new, from the manufacturer.
Ok, there are the MR2 body panel kits to turn the Mk.3 into an RS200 (which I like) but I believe they end up heavier than the original.
I'd like a bespoke chassis, be it a nicely designed spaceframe or a GRP monocoque (or AN Other). It must also be a handsome beast (I always liked the Libra).
There would seem to be plenty of cheap donors; MGFs, MR2s, Boxsters or even FWD cars like a Honda Type-R (could use a transverse layout or even an Audi/ Subaru in-line).
We have heard mention of perhaps one or two coming to market but it seems to be a segment that isn't well catered for. I know you '7' and Cobra drivers love the rain but surely a little coupe would be a better everyday car and could still be a lovely thing on the track, if the weight was kept down.
Yes, tooling costs etc are much higher than for open cars but if you can build a nice '7' copy for £10k and a New Else starts in the £30k region and Boxsters etc more (ok, I know these aren't coupes) then perhaps there is a market in the middle somewhere?
I have my Clio V6 (only 950 miles on the clock) insured for £40k now, so it doesn't really get driven (it looks like a house deposit to Mrs9) so I have picked up a little 106 XSi, which I am upgrading and refurbishing (documented in Reader's cars). Surely I could kill the two with one stone if a new, kit mid-engine coupe was available!?
Your thoughts are more than welcome... And yes, I realise I can buy a nice Mk.3 MR2 for £2k but if I want to build a kit and buy new...
I'm interested in knowing whether there is interest in a kit, mid-engine coupe. A modern Libra, if you like.
These guys do their Mini (and could potentially offer other bodies): speed3automotive.co.uk
But I can't really think of any others that are available new, from the manufacturer.
Ok, there are the MR2 body panel kits to turn the Mk.3 into an RS200 (which I like) but I believe they end up heavier than the original.
I'd like a bespoke chassis, be it a nicely designed spaceframe or a GRP monocoque (or AN Other). It must also be a handsome beast (I always liked the Libra).
There would seem to be plenty of cheap donors; MGFs, MR2s, Boxsters or even FWD cars like a Honda Type-R (could use a transverse layout or even an Audi/ Subaru in-line).
We have heard mention of perhaps one or two coming to market but it seems to be a segment that isn't well catered for. I know you '7' and Cobra drivers love the rain but surely a little coupe would be a better everyday car and could still be a lovely thing on the track, if the weight was kept down.
Yes, tooling costs etc are much higher than for open cars but if you can build a nice '7' copy for £10k and a New Else starts in the £30k region and Boxsters etc more (ok, I know these aren't coupes) then perhaps there is a market in the middle somewhere?
I have my Clio V6 (only 950 miles on the clock) insured for £40k now, so it doesn't really get driven (it looks like a house deposit to Mrs9) so I have picked up a little 106 XSi, which I am upgrading and refurbishing (documented in Reader's cars). Surely I could kill the two with one stone if a new, kit mid-engine coupe was available!?
Your thoughts are more than welcome... And yes, I realise I can buy a nice Mk.3 MR2 for £2k but if I want to build a kit and buy new...
Equus said:
Yes, subject to the usual caveat that doors and fixed roofs, and everything that goes with them (winding windows, heater/demist, hinge/lock mechanisms, weather seals, soundproofing) can be difficult and expensive to develop to an acceptable level in comparison to mainstream production cars.
Yes - I'd want all this, for sure. It shouldn't have to compromise too much.feef said:
Make it a targa top and get the best of both worlds
I don't even want a sunroof (though obviously others might). Less rigidity, more complex/ expensive and will probably leak...
To be fair; I'd completely forgotten about The Phantom/Vortex.
It is a handsome beast that has aged well.
I always wondered why they didn't do 'better'. There was maybe a bit of mixed-marketing, I seem to remember.
They were, perhaps, trying to make it too mainstream and compete with the big boys. Weren't they trying to shift turn keys, mostly?
Either way, that was apparently a well resolved bit of kit. Is it still being sold? I know there was an 'update' with a 5-cyl engine or was that 'private'?
Probably wouldn't take a huge number of updates to refresh that. Nice, normally aspirated engine and lower entry price than say a Cayman and perhaps it has a USP?
It is a handsome beast that has aged well.
I always wondered why they didn't do 'better'. There was maybe a bit of mixed-marketing, I seem to remember.
They were, perhaps, trying to make it too mainstream and compete with the big boys. Weren't they trying to shift turn keys, mostly?
Either way, that was apparently a well resolved bit of kit. Is it still being sold? I know there was an 'update' with a 5-cyl engine or was that 'private'?
Probably wouldn't take a huge number of updates to refresh that. Nice, normally aspirated engine and lower entry price than say a Cayman and perhaps it has a USP?
browse said:
I always liked the look of this, a bit like a mid engined Mini Marcos.
I can only think of the Smart Roadster as a comparable mainstream car.
I quite like the look of that one. Small is good and quirky, although an acquired taste, could also secure some sales. I wouldn't want a 'big' car purporting to be a supercar a la Ultima, which is a great project, which I'd love.I can only think of the Smart Roadster as a comparable mainstream car.
cymtriks said:
To answer the OP
If it looks like Italo's Abarth concept, then yes, there is a market for one.
However if it looks like those three above then there certainly isn't.
I think there is a market for an antidote to modern cars. Something which is small, light and agile, not stuffed full of tat and gadgets that beep at you. A simple (like a Caterham) interior is all that is needed. The only luxury a coupe or 2+2 needs is doors and opening windows.
If it looks like Italo's Abarth concept, then yes, there is a market for one.
However if it looks like those three above then there certainly isn't.
I think there is a market for an antidote to modern cars. Something which is small, light and agile, not stuffed full of tat and gadgets that beep at you. A simple (like a Caterham) interior is all that is needed. The only luxury a coupe or 2+2 needs is doors and opening windows.
Equus said:
Have you ever been in a small, sparsely trimmed coupe? Or even a Caterham with the hood up, for that matter?
Without decent heating/ventilation systems and soundproofing, they're insufferable! Dreadfully noisy; stuffy in summer and mist up in winter.
The minimum standard I would (and have) found tolerable for everyday use is that of something like the Lotus Elan or Midas Coupe.
I'm with Equus on this one - it needs to be liveable. Something you're happy to drive everyday, come rain or shine, motorway or B-road.Without decent heating/ventilation systems and soundproofing, they're insufferable! Dreadfully noisy; stuffy in summer and mist up in winter.
The minimum standard I would (and have) found tolerable for everyday use is that of something like the Lotus Elan or Midas Coupe.
If you could make it small (like the one above or the Midas-type suggestion) then actually having some carpets may make it more appealing than say an Elise.
I still wonder of a modern, torque-y bike engine with the Quaife gearbox including built-in reverse could be a good solution for a USP and perhaps keep weight down around the 750kg mark, which I think would be another good selling point.
It looks like 18/23 are interested, so far, which perhaps seems a little 'better' than I expected.
Edited by dom9 on Tuesday 10th May 11:22
RedAndy said:
if it looks nice, it'll sell.
look at that Tomcat thread. engineering and skills all appear to be there... ambition there... but the car looked... odd. That's why no interest. it wouldnt take much to rectify it, butas it stood it looked odd.
Like a Puma and a Racing puma. Puma is nice to drive and all that, but a bit iffy looking. the racing puma is nice to drive and looks smashing. well judged proportions of the arches. muscular. same with a Ferrari 348 and a 355.
So any mid engine kit car has to look great, or it'll flop. if its nice to drive too, all the better...
I'd forgotten about Tomcat... A few tweaks and that could be lovely!look at that Tomcat thread. engineering and skills all appear to be there... ambition there... but the car looked... odd. That's why no interest. it wouldnt take much to rectify it, butas it stood it looked odd.
Like a Puma and a Racing puma. Puma is nice to drive and all that, but a bit iffy looking. the racing puma is nice to drive and looks smashing. well judged proportions of the arches. muscular. same with a Ferrari 348 and a 355.
So any mid engine kit car has to look great, or it'll flop. if its nice to drive too, all the better...
Seem to remember it wasn't cheap, either and being abroad will have been enough to put some off.
A British Tomcat could sell... I'd definitely take a look!
jas xjr said:
how about a rebody / panel kit for an mr2 ? sorry if it has already been mentioned
Absolutely and I love the RS200 panel kit but it's still an 'old' chassis underneath - I want something brand new, I build myself, with perhaps some more focus.The Stratos is an interesting one. It's an expensive kit to build (but arguably value for money as they do well 2nd hand), which rules out many, I suspect.
Could one of the current Stratos producers be persuaded to do a modern update/ interpretation? I guess that would only increase the price.
However, the current Stratos replicas seem to be highly detailed and use some quite bespoke parts - cost savings could be made.
ugg10 said:
Anotehr couple to add to the list -
the semi-still born Gregori GPR - not bad looking uses a Mk3 Escort drive train mid/rear
and not sure if this has been mentioned the GTM Rossa - Metro bit in the mid/rear -
I'm with frankherd on this - if it could be done for under £10k on the road with decent styling (all in the eye of the buyer), I guess the cheapest and probably most successful would be a fibreglass sandwich centre tub with tubular subframes front and rear that way mechanics are kept simple (double wish bones all round and stock bits, MR2?) and the door shuts etc. can be controlled to give a water tight finish with integrated dash mouldings etc. The alternative is something like the Sylva Vectis that uses the front and rear subframes in tact (from an MGF) bolted onto a steel spaceframe with a GRP body cloaking it (MEV Replicar does the same with the MX5). More scope for getting the doors etc. to fit badly but may be more efficient.
See, updates to either of those designs (I think that Rossa looks great in orange) with MR2 or maybe MGF subframes and parts (engine in the right place, suspension set up for the same configuration etc) is kind of why I started the topic. Can the GTM designs be reengineered underneath, relatively cost effectively? Who owns them, these days?the semi-still born Gregori GPR - not bad looking uses a Mk3 Escort drive train mid/rear
and not sure if this has been mentioned the GTM Rossa - Metro bit in the mid/rear -
I'm with frankherd on this - if it could be done for under £10k on the road with decent styling (all in the eye of the buyer), I guess the cheapest and probably most successful would be a fibreglass sandwich centre tub with tubular subframes front and rear that way mechanics are kept simple (double wish bones all round and stock bits, MR2?) and the door shuts etc. can be controlled to give a water tight finish with integrated dash mouldings etc. The alternative is something like the Sylva Vectis that uses the front and rear subframes in tact (from an MGF) bolted onto a steel spaceframe with a GRP body cloaking it (MEV Replicar does the same with the MX5). More scope for getting the doors etc. to fit badly but may be more efficient.
I think £10k OTR may be wishing for a bit much (though I think that would be a great target price) but if someone could get close, surely there would be 'value' here over a new manufacturer car (like the Elise) and even some second hand cars!? I still think it would need a USP above and beyond building it yourself i.e. low weight, bike engine etc. It needs to be 'different', offer something interesting.
I really like the Widow car and stay in touch with those guys.
I think they have a handsome, well proportioned car there. Lets face it - who doesn't like the Sagaris!
However, it's front engine and not a bespoke chassis, so it's not 'ideal' really, for me. It's still on the list of projects I follow though.
If people like the K-series engine then there is of course the potential to rebody an MGF or use its subframes, like the Mini I linked to in the OP.
There is also a Honda conversion available for the MGF, so that would be an awesome upgrade.
I must admit, I like the idea of lightweight and revvy, kind of the opposite of what modern cars seem to be doing.
Something like a mid engine, updated Rossa with a Honda K or B-Series in the boot sounds like a peach to me!
I think they have a handsome, well proportioned car there. Lets face it - who doesn't like the Sagaris!
However, it's front engine and not a bespoke chassis, so it's not 'ideal' really, for me. It's still on the list of projects I follow though.
If people like the K-series engine then there is of course the potential to rebody an MGF or use its subframes, like the Mini I linked to in the OP.
There is also a Honda conversion available for the MGF, so that would be an awesome upgrade.
I must admit, I like the idea of lightweight and revvy, kind of the opposite of what modern cars seem to be doing.
Something like a mid engine, updated Rossa with a Honda K or B-Series in the boot sounds like a peach to me!
I'll never let it go, matey 
I guess my real problem is that I need something completely bespoke, or I'll never be happy!
Was wondering what you were up to, the other day... Hadn't seen an interesting project on the go for a while!
Not sure I'll be at work much longer, for various reasons (as-in, I'll jack it in and with the industry in a downturn, may not have many options), so I need to be a bit careful with cash and the Clio V6 has become a saleable asset so building something may have to wait, as usual!
I guess my real problem is that I need something completely bespoke, or I'll never be happy!
Was wondering what you were up to, the other day... Hadn't seen an interesting project on the go for a while!
Not sure I'll be at work much longer, for various reasons (as-in, I'll jack it in and with the industry in a downturn, may not have many options), so I need to be a bit careful with cash and the Clio V6 has become a saleable asset so building something may have to wait, as usual!
Lots of interesting stuff in the last few posts!
I see in one of the Kit Car mags this month that someone has the moulds for the GTM coupe and is thinking of putting that back into production, perhaps with a more modern drivetrain.
I'm not sure I'd fit but I quite like the sound of one of those with one of these modern, 3-pot, 1-litre engines. The Aygo/ C1/ 107 engine and 'box are very light, as I understand it.
I see in one of the Kit Car mags this month that someone has the moulds for the GTM coupe and is thinking of putting that back into production, perhaps with a more modern drivetrain.
I'm not sure I'd fit but I quite like the sound of one of those with one of these modern, 3-pot, 1-litre engines. The Aygo/ C1/ 107 engine and 'box are very light, as I understand it.
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