Twin turbo Jag V12 mid engined scratch built Zonda

[nicktruman]

Hi guys
A year ago I started my kit car, based on a V12 from an XJS with running gear from a Scorpio I have built a full size "Zonda" replica.
The specs are:
5.3l V12 with twin t28 turbos and intercoolers
Audi transaxle
Audi Quatro flywheel and clutch
Megasquirt ECU running twin Ford V6 coilpack "wasted spark" triggered 36-1 trigger wheel (onboard CarPC for tuning)
.
Same dimension as Zonda C12 roadster
power steering Astra
Windscreen wiper, Merc 190

I am now making the body (slowly as it so cold!)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oae5AwZIllI
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=d83r2-Z4-CE
http://photobucket.com/NickT

The body will be made of glass fibre and carbon

[nicktruman]

My version will appear to have a slightly longer nose because my windscreen is not as raked as the OEM one. I have used an XJS screen, zonda ones don't come up on ebay that often!

Driving the chassis around as it is was quite awesome, feels like a gokart, but if you blip the throttle in 1st gear, you get a wack in the back like nothing I have felt before..


Regards

Nick

[nicktruman]

Chris71 said:

Should be fun! Is the chassis your own design? Any plans to market it?

...And was that a Ferrari 308 in the corner of the video?

No, no plans to market it, I copied the chassis from the Ultima GTR website, just modified it to fit the dimensions of the C12.
Yep, that's my 308 GT4, had it for 5 years now, nicest car I've ever had!

antnicuk said:

very interesting project. did you build the chassis your self? is it your own design?

Yes, I did, I bought the engine to make a coffee table, but it was way too heavy! So I ended up making a car round it. First it was put in the back of a Scorpio and registered (as mid-engined V12 Ford Scorpio) then I lost the body and fabricated the rest of it. Its made from 1 1/2" 1.5 mm tube, same as the Ultima. Its very rigid, when the V12 was mounted, you could jack up the front corner from the ground and the engine (1/3rd tonne!) would lift too, no flex!
Cheers

Nick

[nicktruman]

tegwin said:

Awsome project...

You do realise that you cant keep it registered as a V-12 scorpio... unforunately its going to have to go through the government IVA/SVA tests to make it road legal/insurable.... Might be worth getting a test manual now and making sure everything is built to spec so it passes the test!

Yes i guess so, the DVLA have said they want to come and look at it! I have to ring them when it has body. theoretically it should maintain its "G" reg plate according to the rules. The engine, transmission, steering electrics are all Ford (well they come out of a Scorpio). I even have a bit of the chassis left (the bits that holds the steering column in place.
But, if it has to go Q then so be it.

the whole story of the build is here, but you will need to register (free) to see the pictures.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=...





Cheers
Nick

[nicktruman]

singlecoil said:

You should join the
www.locostbuilders.co.uk
forum, there's a section for mid-engined cars, the guys there would be very interested in your project

Thanks for the tip, just registered!

FM said:

Superb project mate...wonderful.

Heh thanks, appreciated!!

Cheers
Nick

[nicktruman]

172_bill said:

Fantastic work !

Have you checked the wishbone geometry on shareware simulation tools ?
I suspect your hubs have their ball joints quite close together, relative to the chassis mounting points (and much closer together than Zonda). Looks like you might get bad camber change in roll.
Or maybe it could be sorted by a ride-height change.

PS I'm not an expert I could be talking total b******s
Good luck anyway.

Hi, what shareware tool???

I have never done anything like this before, (1st and last time). I copied the dimensions of the wishbones off my Ferrari, but could be acres out!

Just come in from the cold, finished the last rear wing. Next I have to carve it to shape then start plastering!

Regards Nick

Edited by nicktruman on Sunday 1st February 17:17

[nicktruman]

andygtt said:

Ive spotted you thread on locost havong not been on there for about a year until today.... only to find you were here all along.

Awsome project which I will be following for sure.

Hi Andy
For the full story.. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=...

you get th whole sory saga from there, and some very nice cars as well!

Cheers

Nick

[nicktruman]

rhdv8 said:

Hi Nick, long time no hear. Glad to see you still have the GT4, but still a shame you haven’t got the proper wheels :-) even after I sent you that link when there were some for sale. Ok, ok it was some 3 yrs ago now I guess. From the youtube vids you look like you’ve been on some kind of elixir of youth???

I finally did get my RX7 and yes it now has a 5.7L LS1 V8 in it.
Guessed who I am yet??
Phil from the OCC help at all?

Good luck with your project

PS say Hi to Mike C for me.

Edited by rhdv8 on Tuesday 3rd February 21:20

Hi Phil,
How's things? I hated the standard Ferrari wheels, the next owner can put them back on. I always think, If Enzo had been around today, would he have fitted 205/70 14 wheels/tryres... Don't think so.. the ultra low profiles have transformed the car in many ways..
Yes, a mid life crisis, Ferrari not quick enough so lets make a twin turbo V12
Don't work for Mike anymore!

Regards Nick

[nicktruman]

V8OWNER said:

nicktruman said:

No, no plans to market it, I copied the chassis from the Ultima GTR website, just modified it to fit the dimensions of the C12.

I cant see any resemblance to the GTR chassis?!

Full marks to you Nick.. looks like a great project, with alot of thought gone into it.. I think the zonda is a great looking car , but why after all that work dont you go with your own body design?

Oh, I certainly copied lots of the detail, never made anything before, so had to rely on these websites for inspiration, also the parallel design site.

It will be my take on a Zonda (I guess), for instance I want gullwing Lambo style doors, the bonnet will have ti be a different shape because of the windscreen. It will be my tribute

I treated myself to some new seats, I also added a bit more to the rear. The dash is now semi clad in red leather. -

[nicktruman]

Nelibg said:

The engineering is good, the V12 engine is so cool,but if he want to make a 1:1 Zonda ,he failed. the front end is too high for Zonda.

Edited by Nelibg on Thursday 5th February 17:42

Edited by Nelibg on Thursday 5th February 17:42

Ah? I havent made the front end? I have only made the back, the front is only 5 cm off the road, how low would you like it?

[nicktruman]

FM said:

There was a little picture of a road going Silk cut Jaguar replica in a recent issue of retro cars covering a car show somewhere....lovely it was indeed...I can`t help think that your chassis & engine combination would lend itself to something similar spectacuarly well & look the preverbial million dollers. I`m well aware that you have your own ideas however so take no notice of my suggestion.
Anyway..3 cheers for the Mid mounted V12 turbo....best wishes on the rest of it`s completion.

Thanks and fair comments re the body. LOADS of people have asked why try and copy a Zonda, if it doesnt look right, etc.. etc.. honest answer, seemed like a good idea at the time. You have to start somewhere, If the body works OK, maybe I can do another? I have never done anything like this before, so its a VERY steep learning curve.

On the PLUS side just got a new windscreen and routed the dial face so the dials now fit. Man its cold in the garage!!

[nicktruman]

cymtriks said:

nicktruman said:

Its made from 1 1/2" 1.5 mm tube, same as the Ultima. Its very rigid, when the V12 was mounted, you could jack up the front corner from the ground and the engine (1/3rd tonne!) would lift too, no flex!

Nick, did you actually measure the flex? For a six foot wide car and only taking into account the engine weight you have a moment of 2240 ftlbs resisting the lift of one front corner. On a reasonable chassis this should give an inch of difference across the front suspension mounts when compared to the rear suspension mounts. i.e. if the rear mounts are on the (level) ground, the free front end corner is at x inches and the jacked front end corner is at x+1 inches from the ground.

I can't make out the suspension rod end sizes but there are reports of 1/2 inch rod ends failing on kit cars of similar power/size/weight. Stress on the rod end shanks are directly related to how far the ball centre is from the thread housing in the wishbone. Over 1 inch on this dimension and you may well have problems even at bigger rod end sizes. I'm not trying to pick faults, as I don't actually know the size of rod end you are using or how far out the "eye" is from the housing, I'm just passing on the experience of someone who ended up in a ditch!

Great project, I'd love to do it myself but I can't afford a house with a big enough workshop area.

Anyone who has ever thought about making their own car might be interested in other build websites such as the Meerkat, LaBala and DP1 projects.

Hi, sorry for taking so long to reply, but been busy carving polystyrene - yuck!

Yes I did measure the flex, When I made the chassis I mounted it on axle stands at each corner, then lowered the V12 into it. After an initial creak from everything it settled. I used a dial gauge indicator and took readings across the chassis at different points. I would put a jack below the sump and take the weight of the motor, reset the dial gauge to 0, then slowly lower the engine. the most distortion i got was 5mm, that was mid way along the chassis. I ended up welding some more triangulated sections in the centre tunnel and side rails.
Now if I shine a laser along the length of the car, there is at most a 2 mm sag, but that might be down to stresses in the chassis, i.e. welding sections in an already loaded chassis.
It really is very very stiff! When its finished it will be stronger still, as the skid pan will be the length/width of the car from 0.8mm steel spot welded.
I was very conscious that right behind my head is a very heavy powerful lump of metal!

Regards

Nick

[nicktruman]

cymtriks said:

nicktruman said:

cymtriks said:

nicktruman said:

Its made from 1 1/2" 1.5 mm tube, same as the Ultima. Its very rigid, when the V12 was mounted, you could jack up the front corner from the ground and the engine (1/3rd tonne!) would lift too, no flex!

Nick, did you actually measure the flex? For a six foot wide car and only taking into account the engine weight you have a moment of 2240 ftlbs resisting the lift of one front corner. On a reasonable chassis this should give an inch of difference across the front suspension mounts when compared to the rear suspension mounts. i.e. if the rear mounts are on the (level) ground, the free front end corner is at x inches and the jacked front end corner is at x+1 inches from the ground.

I can't make out the suspension rod end sizes but there are reports of 1/2 inch rod ends failing on kit cars of similar power/size/weight. Stress on the rod end shanks are directly related to how far the ball centre is from the thread housing in the wishbone. Over 1 inch on this dimension and you may well have problems even at bigger rod end sizes. I'm not trying to pick faults, as I don't actually know the size of rod end you are using or how far out the "eye" is from the housing, I'm just passing on the experience of someone who ended up in a ditch!

Great project, I'd love to do it myself but I can't afford a house with a big enough workshop area.

Anyone who has ever thought about making their own car might be interested in other build websites such as the Meerkat, LaBala and DP1 projects.

Hi, sorry for taking so long to reply, but been busy carving polystyrene - yuck!

Yes I did measure the flex, When I made the chassis I mounted it on axle stands at each corner, then lowered the V12 into it. After an initial creak from everything it settled. I used a dial gauge indicator and took readings across the chassis at different points. I would put a jack below the sump and take the weight of the motor, reset the dial gauge to 0, then slowly lower the engine. the most distortion i got was 5mm, that was mid way along the chassis. I ended up welding some more triangulated sections in the centre tunnel and side rails.
Now if I shine a laser along the length of the car, there is at most a 2 mm sag, but that might be down to stresses in the chassis, i.e. welding sections in an already loaded chassis.
It really is very very stiff! When its finished it will be stronger still, as the skid pan will be the length/width of the car from 0.8mm steel spot welded.
I was very conscious that right behind my head is a very heavy powerful lump of metal!

Regards

Nick

That sounds like beam stiffness that you have measured. When engineers talk about stiffness of a chassis they usually mean torsional stiffness. This would be measured as I described. It is a measure of how well the chassis copes with a single wheel bump or with fine tuning of the suspension front to rear.

Welding in the pan will help beam stiffness but it won't make much difference to torsional stiffness.

Out of curiosity what uprights are you using? This always starts a debate on the locostbuilders site!

The front uprights are modified scorpio the rear are custom made with Scorpio hubs mounted 90 degrees out, so the calipers point in a conventional direction.
Cheers
Nick

[nicktruman]

SVA warning light requirements..
What lights and symbols must i have on my dash?

I have ABS fitted,

I know I need a brake symbol, exclamation in a circle, but does it have to go on the dash where the dials are, or could it go on the centre console? Is this just for brake fluid/hand brake.

[nicktruman]

Here is an update, the centre console and dash are just about finished, I have cut the aluminium centre section and fitted the monitor and Sony head unit. The CarPC, Autochanger and amps will fit behind the seats. I have also grafted the Scorpio's glove box to the dash, once covered in the red leatherette it should blend in nicely.

[nicktruman]

The latest pics - The dash and instruments are nearly all wired up and everything work well, The glove box nowe matches the dash. All the LEDs now do something (oil, alternator, lights etc..) The light switch is now fitted and working. I have also started on plastering the body.

[nicktruman]

Today I started to glass fibre the body. I have never done this before so am making it up as I go along! The plaster was all rubbed down, I then covered the front with cling film. The I cut the matting to fit the various panels (with overlaps). The I laid the matting and poured resin over it, using a laminating roller I pushed the resin through. On the front alone I used 3.7 litres of resin! Once the first layer was done, I "tailored" a 2nd set of matting panels which I laid over the wet 1st coat. Again I rolled this with the laminating roller. It looks great, no wrinkles or rough spots (as far as I tell). I will let that dry and then cover in CSM surface tissue.

The idea is when all dried out I can lift the front off, get rid of all the polystyrene and plaster and then add extra matting from the inside.

I also cut the panels for the rear end which I will lay up tomorrow.

[nicktruman]

GreenV8S said:

I've never tried what you're doing so you're already years ahead of me, but I got the impression that the conventional approach (even for one-offs) was to make a buck and then create a mould from the buck. It must take more work, but means that your outer gelcoat surface has a smooth finish from the mould rather than being exposed fibreglass. (My limited experience with fibreglass is that the finish on the exposed surface is cr@p.) It presumably makes it easier to make spares if you get a damaged panel, too.

You have a point!
My main concern was cost and having a 2nd car laying about. I have never done anything like this too! However the idea is to rub the very rough surface down, fill it and make it smooth then cover with surface tissue and flowcoat resin. Hopefully that will give a great finish.
as for spare panels. I don't want/not going to crash it in the 1st place

Today I finished the body 4 ply of matting, this weekend I will take out the plug.

Cheers
Nick

[nicktruman]

Yesterday I glassed the whole body with an extra laminate, today a friend came over and we took off the bonnet and cleaned out all th mold, awesome! The cling film worked a treat and has left me with a great finish (albeit on the inside). The steel frame had holes drilled in it and has bonded to the GRP, all in all its come out way better than anticipated.

On the rear panel we ground down all the high spots and filled the low spot and laid an extra layer of matting, I had made some molds based on the Hella modular lights these were pressed into the wet matting so as to create a snug hole for the rear light fittings. the result is I now have a really flat smooth rear panel with lights! I put a tin foil ring round the tail pipes just for the picture - but i am looking for a 10" (260mm) saucepan I can cut the bottom off to make this trim.

Tomorrow we are taking the rear off and will be removing the last of the polystyrene - this will give me access to the V12 for the 1st time in months.

[nicktruman]

groomi said:

OK, I've been following this thread for a while now so it's about time to add my 2p. Nick, I hope you take my comments in the manner they are intended - although I appreciate this is a very personal project...

I love the idea of this, it's the kind of thing that I'd never put the effort in to make myself. However, while the original picture posted of the rolling chassis was inspirational, everything posted since is really dissappointing.

I was hoping to see a project take place where somebody makes an excellent replica of an amazing car, from scratch in a manner that provides a good proportion of the performance and visual drama for a tiny fraction of the cost. Unfortunately the standard of finish is shaping up to make it end up like one of those 1980's Countach kits based on Beetles and made out of plywood.

This site has a wealth of resources (other people) who would gladly advise how to make a good glass fibre body, how to trim an interior panel etc. etc.

The effort is mighty impressive, but please, please take some time to make things properly and get the fit and finish at least to kit car standards. Your efforts deserve a better result...

Sorry I don't understand? Its not finished I just stuck lights in the holes to take a picture! I have loads more to do before I will be happy. The inside is my interpretation of the Zonda not a copy, after all I don't have access to high pressure carbon fibre molds, unlimited resources, tonnes of time etc... and have never done anything before.
So at this stage i think thats a bit harsh