Vixen - engine swap - ideas and guidance please
Discussion
Dear all,
Thanks again to all those posters helping me with guidance on my body lift. The body is off and I have had a really pleasant surprise to find a chassis in stunning condition:
Someone has been upgrading before me - I have vented front discs and modified rear ARB.
I am now starting to think through what engine to fit (and will then build the strengthened chassis, rebuilt suspension and good brakes around this). One thought is a track prepped Essex V6 from the likes or John Wade or Ric Wood or have seen a stroked engine at EssexEngines.com. Another idea is to go the 302 SBF route. I love the recent 5000M build on these forum pages and if I go that route would do it in mild form to keep heat down. I would welcome guidance from the experts here. Here are my thoughts:
- I prefer something that looks classic and fits the part (but I do not need to meet any specific race regulations) so keen to avoid a modern engine that cannot be made to look old
- I am planning to build a fast road / occasional track car. Fun, but not crazy. Ideally more than 200bhp would be fun but not looking to kill myself with a wild 300+bhp.
- I live in a hot climate so it will need a big radiator, good oil cooler and good coating on the headers to keep the heat at bay
I will probably contract out the engine build.
I know many frown on butchering the wonderful Vixens so let me reassue you that I have rescued a car that has a body in a terrible state with a good chassis and a Mazda 13b, so anything I do is an upgrade and better tribute to TVR.
Any ideas, practical guidance? Essex? SBF? Something better, more clever?
Many thanks
Nigel
Thanks again to all those posters helping me with guidance on my body lift. The body is off and I have had a really pleasant surprise to find a chassis in stunning condition:
Someone has been upgrading before me - I have vented front discs and modified rear ARB.
I am now starting to think through what engine to fit (and will then build the strengthened chassis, rebuilt suspension and good brakes around this). One thought is a track prepped Essex V6 from the likes or John Wade or Ric Wood or have seen a stroked engine at EssexEngines.com. Another idea is to go the 302 SBF route. I love the recent 5000M build on these forum pages and if I go that route would do it in mild form to keep heat down. I would welcome guidance from the experts here. Here are my thoughts:
- I prefer something that looks classic and fits the part (but I do not need to meet any specific race regulations) so keen to avoid a modern engine that cannot be made to look old
- I am planning to build a fast road / occasional track car. Fun, but not crazy. Ideally more than 200bhp would be fun but not looking to kill myself with a wild 300+bhp.
- I live in a hot climate so it will need a big radiator, good oil cooler and good coating on the headers to keep the heat at bay
I will probably contract out the engine build.
I know many frown on butchering the wonderful Vixens so let me reassue you that I have rescued a car that has a body in a terrible state with a good chassis and a Mazda 13b, so anything I do is an upgrade and better tribute to TVR.
Any ideas, practical guidance? Essex? SBF? Something better, more clever?
Many thanks
Nigel
Hi Tom
Many thanks for the quick reply. Interesting idea, I had not thought about that. I am intrigued by the idea of having a Ford I4 which, of course, is how the car started its life. With some quick googling it seems that the Caterham CSR is using the Duratec 2.3 and it weighs about 95kg, so should not upset the balance too much. Can I get a 'classic look', I don't want it looking too modern when the bonnet is up. Perhaps with some ITB it could look the part. I have googled, does anyone know if this would fit? Anyone have a picture of the engine bay?
Nigel
Many thanks for the quick reply. Interesting idea, I had not thought about that. I am intrigued by the idea of having a Ford I4 which, of course, is how the car started its life. With some quick googling it seems that the Caterham CSR is using the Duratec 2.3 and it weighs about 95kg, so should not upset the balance too much. Can I get a 'classic look', I don't want it looking too modern when the bonnet is up. Perhaps with some ITB it could look the part. I have googled, does anyone know if this would fit? Anyone have a picture of the engine bay?
Nigel
Dear all,
Many thanks again for the ideas and guidance. Just to summarise as it helps get my thinking straight:
302 SBF
Merits: great sound, great power, cheap
Demerits: a lot of work (chassis, suspension and electrics)
Essex V6
Merits: period correct, great sound and great torque. EFI is easy
Demerits: heavy, limited supply of engines and tuners
Cologne V6
Merits: sort of period correct, great sound, lighter than Essex
Demerits: still heavy, asthmatic with not much power
Duratec I4
Merits: great power, light and sort of fits original TVR concept
Demerits: not cheap
Zetec I4
Merits: good power and light, cheaper than Duratec and retro look products available
Demerits: not as much power as Duratec
Duratec V6
Merits: even more power
Demerits: much heavier than I4, will it fit, is it expensive, can it be made to look retro?
Power around 200-300bhp would suit me. I am less worried about the cost but more worried about being able to make the engine look retro (that BDA rocker cover is great, wonder if I can get one made for the Duratec). I also need something that can survive in the hot climate.
Currently I am leaning towards the Cosworth Duratec I4 as this is powerful and light and with ITB could be made to look older? I see that "VIXEN STEVE" has a 2.3 Duratec Vixen so might see if I can get him to post a picture here. The fact that Caterham use it in the CSR appeals to me.
Addressing some of the questions from the posters (and adding some of my own):
Monkeythree - thanks for kicking off the debate on the Duratecs. You mention that the Zetec inlet is on the "right" side ... (I am dumb this morning) you mean it looks correct or it will fit in the engine bay?
Slow M - yes, the car has been rebuilt for the track and I have been very lucky. It was build by one guy, sold to another who couldn't fit in the car, left standing in the US and I then acquired and shipped to Asia. Unfortunately, I can admire what has been done but don't have access to the modifier
Heightswitch - you mention that Duratec induction / exhaust are revesed ... (same question as Monkeythree) you mean it does not look correct or will not fit? You were asking about the 13b .... let me hint at the answer only as this is a public forum .... but I am in Asia and to register the car it must "look the part" ...hence I would probably find it easier to make the Duratec I4 pass than the V6 (which looks way too modern for the car). Probably best left at this point but as I say would be prepared to get retro parts made as required. Here is a picture of the 13b (anyone want to buy a 13b with gearbox and HUGE holley carb?)
Thanks, Nigel
Many thanks again for the ideas and guidance. Just to summarise as it helps get my thinking straight:
302 SBF
Merits: great sound, great power, cheap
Demerits: a lot of work (chassis, suspension and electrics)
Essex V6
Merits: period correct, great sound and great torque. EFI is easy
Demerits: heavy, limited supply of engines and tuners
Cologne V6
Merits: sort of period correct, great sound, lighter than Essex
Demerits: still heavy, asthmatic with not much power
Duratec I4
Merits: great power, light and sort of fits original TVR concept
Demerits: not cheap
Zetec I4
Merits: good power and light, cheaper than Duratec and retro look products available
Demerits: not as much power as Duratec
Duratec V6
Merits: even more power
Demerits: much heavier than I4, will it fit, is it expensive, can it be made to look retro?
Power around 200-300bhp would suit me. I am less worried about the cost but more worried about being able to make the engine look retro (that BDA rocker cover is great, wonder if I can get one made for the Duratec). I also need something that can survive in the hot climate.
Currently I am leaning towards the Cosworth Duratec I4 as this is powerful and light and with ITB could be made to look older? I see that "VIXEN STEVE" has a 2.3 Duratec Vixen so might see if I can get him to post a picture here. The fact that Caterham use it in the CSR appeals to me.
Addressing some of the questions from the posters (and adding some of my own):
Monkeythree - thanks for kicking off the debate on the Duratecs. You mention that the Zetec inlet is on the "right" side ... (I am dumb this morning) you mean it looks correct or it will fit in the engine bay?
Slow M - yes, the car has been rebuilt for the track and I have been very lucky. It was build by one guy, sold to another who couldn't fit in the car, left standing in the US and I then acquired and shipped to Asia. Unfortunately, I can admire what has been done but don't have access to the modifier
Heightswitch - you mention that Duratec induction / exhaust are revesed ... (same question as Monkeythree) you mean it does not look correct or will not fit? You were asking about the 13b .... let me hint at the answer only as this is a public forum .... but I am in Asia and to register the car it must "look the part" ...hence I would probably find it easier to make the Duratec I4 pass than the V6 (which looks way too modern for the car). Probably best left at this point but as I say would be prepared to get retro parts made as required. Here is a picture of the 13b (anyone want to buy a 13b with gearbox and HUGE holley carb?)
Thanks, Nigel
Hi everyone,
Thanks again, I am grateful for all the ideas and guidance.
As mentioned, I need something that can loosely fit the classic look to secure the OK here. On this basis the current 13b (with Mazda cast all over it) and the modern Japanese engines will not work.
The 302SBF sounds and looks great but the discussion about Zetec and Duratec is appealing. To my simple mind, I would simply be using the old Ford block with a new head and modern engine management ... a light engine fits the old TVR (Lotus) ethos.
I sense that the Zetec is hugely cheaper than the Duratec but is less powerful and heavier. So it seems that this is just a matter of cost and desire for power. Assuming both engines will fit, fabrication of the engine mounts and exhaust route is quite manageable.
Daza - many thanks for the pictures of the Zetec in place.
Does anyone have any pictures of a Duratec in a Vixen?
Thanks
Nigel
Thanks again, I am grateful for all the ideas and guidance.
As mentioned, I need something that can loosely fit the classic look to secure the OK here. On this basis the current 13b (with Mazda cast all over it) and the modern Japanese engines will not work.
The 302SBF sounds and looks great but the discussion about Zetec and Duratec is appealing. To my simple mind, I would simply be using the old Ford block with a new head and modern engine management ... a light engine fits the old TVR (Lotus) ethos.
I sense that the Zetec is hugely cheaper than the Duratec but is less powerful and heavier. So it seems that this is just a matter of cost and desire for power. Assuming both engines will fit, fabrication of the engine mounts and exhaust route is quite manageable.
Daza - many thanks for the pictures of the Zetec in place.
Does anyone have any pictures of a Duratec in a Vixen?
Thanks
Nigel
Dear all,
Thanks again everyone. I never imagined I would get so much help, this is really great. I have almost decided to go with a 2.3 Duratec and a 5 or 6 speed 'box. Going the 'light as possible' / lotus route.
Posters have mentioned a crate Cosworth engine from Burton as one source or getting a custom build from Scholar Engines. I appreciate that these are quite a premium to a self build but I am in Asia so buying parts and rebuilding / upgrading here could take some time and be a challenge.
Do any of you have any advice / guidance / preferences or advice between Cosworth and Schholar or other cost effective builders?
Any recommendations on a box to match (at say 250bhp)? Do I need to worry about which boxes will fit in the chassis, a T9 or a Quaiffe etc? They fit the space, any recommended suppliers?
Many thanks,
Nigel
Thanks again everyone. I never imagined I would get so much help, this is really great. I have almost decided to go with a 2.3 Duratec and a 5 or 6 speed 'box. Going the 'light as possible' / lotus route.
Posters have mentioned a crate Cosworth engine from Burton as one source or getting a custom build from Scholar Engines. I appreciate that these are quite a premium to a self build but I am in Asia so buying parts and rebuilding / upgrading here could take some time and be a challenge.
Do any of you have any advice / guidance / preferences or advice between Cosworth and Schholar or other cost effective builders?
Any recommendations on a box to match (at say 250bhp)? Do I need to worry about which boxes will fit in the chassis, a T9 or a Quaiffe etc? They fit the space, any recommended suppliers?
Many thanks,
Nigel
Darren,
Good question but there are workshops and race teams here that can handle the maintenance. I am confidence that regular maintenance and tweaking the ECU for different grades of fuel is all manageable. The challenge is the starting point for the engine. I could buy and ship a used engine, strip and then start ordering parts and tuning bits but each steps requires another international shipment .... and there is less knowledge here on how to extract good power. I am planning to get this project done by the summer (2012) hence thinking of finding a builder in the UK and then shipping!
You guys are blessed with great automotive support in the UK. From my international perspective I can look back to the UK with great pride on the knowledge and expertise there is in the UK. You guys are lucky (and I am lucky you are all helping me
).
Advice on better builders?
I forgot to mention, I won't run with a heater box so plan to mount as far back as possible (like Moto above) so getting a gearbox where I can locate the lever in different positions will allow me to get the engine and box right back with the gear lever in a manageable position. Moto - nice suspension, where did you get the new wishbones?
Thanks,
Good question but there are workshops and race teams here that can handle the maintenance. I am confidence that regular maintenance and tweaking the ECU for different grades of fuel is all manageable. The challenge is the starting point for the engine. I could buy and ship a used engine, strip and then start ordering parts and tuning bits but each steps requires another international shipment .... and there is less knowledge here on how to extract good power. I am planning to get this project done by the summer (2012) hence thinking of finding a builder in the UK and then shipping!
You guys are blessed with great automotive support in the UK. From my international perspective I can look back to the UK with great pride on the knowledge and expertise there is in the UK. You guys are lucky (and I am lucky you are all helping me
).Advice on better builders?
I forgot to mention, I won't run with a heater box so plan to mount as far back as possible (like Moto above) so getting a gearbox where I can locate the lever in different positions will allow me to get the engine and box right back with the gear lever in a manageable position. Moto - nice suspension, where did you get the new wishbones?
Thanks,
Thanks for the ideas. It is a 'no go'. Parts shipped here are subject to VAT only. Ship a vehicle and the tax will make your eyes water.......and bank balance evaporate.
Luckily I have a great chassis, good body and am on my way developing the engine, suspension and modifications plan. I can work with the UK workshops and the do much of the work here.
By the time I finish there wil be a great 'how to do it' bible here at PistonHeads.
Thanks,
Luckily I have a great chassis, good body and am on my way developing the engine, suspension and modifications plan. I can work with the UK workshops and the do much of the work here.
By the time I finish there wil be a great 'how to do it' bible here at PistonHeads.
Thanks,
Gassing Station | TVR Classics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff