Tuscan V8 SE Spec US cars
Discussion
Over the last few days I have been able to find more information regarding the US V8SE Tuscan cars that is rather interesting and helps to clarify some of the confusions that have arisen in various threads on certain cars.
I met two owners of US MAL Chassis V8 Tuscans while I was away and they have been able to confirm what I had suspected
Although there where LW cars exported as well to the USA the MAL Chassis cars where different as they seem to be later cars and went to the US minus the Engine.
However this is the interesting thing and that is at that time it looks like they where building the cars as standard spec interiors and trim and if a customer wanted a V8 Car they where adding a V8 and the SE badge and that was it in the US rather than here in the UK as there was not the supply of V8 engines here and those had the 302 fitted I believe rather than the 289 as the supply of 289s had dried up as Ford went over to the 302 engines themselves.
This explains the few MAL Chassis cars that have appeared where many of us have said that's a Vixen V8 Conversion and in a way that's correct only it was done at the time of import when the importers added the engine
The Sales literature that was used TVR Cars of America helps to show this as there Sales Literature for the SE cars is just a one sheet added to the back of the Vixen 1600 brochure hence the Features of Most of the Tuscan SE Cars such as no Quarter Lights dual heater fans wider wheels and the upgraded interior did not appear on these cars hence also why the records don't list these here in the UK as SE Cars as I suspect there is no UK record of what ones that went where converted/built as new to V8 cars.
Here is the sales sheet used by TVR Cars of America
I met two owners of US MAL Chassis V8 Tuscans while I was away and they have been able to confirm what I had suspected
Although there where LW cars exported as well to the USA the MAL Chassis cars where different as they seem to be later cars and went to the US minus the Engine.
However this is the interesting thing and that is at that time it looks like they where building the cars as standard spec interiors and trim and if a customer wanted a V8 Car they where adding a V8 and the SE badge and that was it in the US rather than here in the UK as there was not the supply of V8 engines here and those had the 302 fitted I believe rather than the 289 as the supply of 289s had dried up as Ford went over to the 302 engines themselves.
This explains the few MAL Chassis cars that have appeared where many of us have said that's a Vixen V8 Conversion and in a way that's correct only it was done at the time of import when the importers added the engine
The Sales literature that was used TVR Cars of America helps to show this as there Sales Literature for the SE cars is just a one sheet added to the back of the Vixen 1600 brochure hence the Features of Most of the Tuscan SE Cars such as no Quarter Lights dual heater fans wider wheels and the upgraded interior did not appear on these cars hence also why the records don't list these here in the UK as SE Cars as I suspect there is no UK record of what ones that went where converted/built as new to V8 cars.
Here is the sales sheet used by TVR Cars of America
Edited by Andrew Gray on Monday 5th October 14:44
alphaone said:
The one I found most interesting was MAL008, not a SE but an auto box and Vixen interior. I believe the owner is in the process of doing a documentary about the V8 Tuscans
Yes however that car was sold as an SE Tuscan as you can see from the sales sheet so I guess the practice of popping a V8 in a Vixen spec car goes back to year one yes the Documentary footage was being played over the weekend at the Event there I am unsure when it is being released I did not watch it as I was busy elsewhere getting ready for the Banquet etc and changing my under ware after a spin in old Blue literally ?Andrew
Dollyman1850 said:
289 Blocks were only in production until 1967…The later C8OE blocks were brought on line in 1968..These are 302 Blocks. 289 engines were actually built with later 302 Blocks in 1968 onwards.. 302 engines becoming more widespread in 1968 onward…Generally the MAL chassid cars should have 302 Blocks installed as OE, or 289 engines with the correct C8OE 302 blocks. The correct engine spec for most of the MAL chassid cars is a 302 displacement and an option was a Boss 302, an entirely different set up, essentially a windsor block with Cleveland heads. Anything with a C5AE Block is Griffith or has been built as a HI-PO from a Mustang..
Since the actual production run of these 22--odd cars is not very well documented then it is entirely possible that the odd C5AE block could have found its way into a later car. This is not date correct however..
Again this was a turbulent time at TVR and as such during this period I dare say surplus engines would be lying around in both countries needing an engine bay to live in..
N.
Thank you NeilSince the actual production run of these 22--odd cars is not very well documented then it is entirely possible that the odd C5AE block could have found its way into a later car. This is not date correct however..
Again this was a turbulent time at TVR and as such during this period I dare say surplus engines would be lying around in both countries needing an engine bay to live in..
N.
Interesting from what David Hives recalls although age and time can effect memory his thoughts where that during that later period they could not source V8 engines here in the UK which may well have had an effect on the reason for fitting in the USA.
Andrew
Dollyman1850 said:
Don't quote me..was just an approximation..23 ----some say more.. of that 7/8 wide bodies but some say possibly 9.
I don't think anyone really knows. Probably least of all Martin. he was doing a lot of shagging, boozing and racing around this time lucky bugger.
N.
Guy Dirken who owns one of the Wide Bodied cars has done extensive research on the MAL cars and sent me a copy of his findings which reads to about 30 pages.I don't think anyone really knows. Probably least of all Martin. he was doing a lot of shagging, boozing and racing around this time lucky bugger.
N.
His research does not confirm but certainly implies that there where only 5 wide bodied cars and the majority where vixen bodied cars that may or may not be V8 engine.
Guy was not there but his partner in the car was there and I had a good chat with him.
Time may or may not reveal the other cars but certainly an interesting batch of cars.
Andrew
Edited by Andrew Gray on Monday 5th October 22:34
DavidY said:
As ever with early V8 TVRs it will be difficult to pin exact numbers (or authenticity) on variants of car. From the late 80's onwards, the value of these cars has increased dramatically (especially with FIA race success), and it's all to easy for cars to have been 'created', whether from Vixen's, boxes of bits, or just thin air!! Poor record keeping by TVR (both here and in the USA), means that they are openings for unscrupulous people to add vehicles, only 7 MAL cars, or 8, or 9, or this was originally a widebodied car with a MAL chassis number but now has a standard Vixen body on it, after a 1972 accident, you know what I mean......
There are already duplicate chassis number TVRs in existence (some even came straight from the factory), the provenance of these cars will always be difficult to prove, unless the car has a full documented (with pictures) history.
In reality it's no different from other Marques, in the 60's/70's records were just not of the same standards as they are today.
Hi David There are already duplicate chassis number TVRs in existence (some even came straight from the factory), the provenance of these cars will always be difficult to prove, unless the car has a full documented (with pictures) history.
In reality it's no different from other Marques, in the 60's/70's records were just not of the same standards as they are today.
The Genuine V8 Cars ie The LW numbered 001 to 0023 are the only ones and there is not a register for these cars for exactly that reason so the missing numbers cant be faked easy and that is very wise and I fully understand the reason for that.
And yes these cars end in 67 with the last ones registered in early 68.
My Interest has really been to discover the heritage of the MAL Numbered V8 Non Wide Bodied cars that are all post 68 and have 302 engines SE Badging but no other SE feature as you would expect these where all export cars and engines fitted in the US.
Its been interesting seeing some of these cars appear over the last few years where many have questioned there heritage due to the lack of the Tuscan features.
However in the USA they where sold as SE V8 cars and where sold using the sales brochure used in the US at the time so nothing sinister other than like today with car makers selling a model in a different country but the specification being different to another country.
The Document written following extensive research by a US Wide bodied owner which I have a copy is rather interesting reading and I have shared this with a few and maybe they have share as well however I have written to him today asking permission to publish it or asking is the Document somewhere where it can be accessed as it would be wrong to publish someones research without there permission.
The Thread is really about those cars and the interesting details and in a way a missing gap in the V8 TVR Story.
And not about the Fully Specked Tuscan SE Cars
Regarding Cloning of the Genuine V8SE Cars that is much harder than you would think and anyone thinking of buying one would obviously do there research first as most that are remaining are well documented and due to the smaller numbers and the unique features not as easy to Clone as say a Griffith which sadly has been done and even the Marque experts have been caught out.
Andrew
Edited by Andrew Gray on Tuesday 6th October 17:03
DavidY said:
Andrew
Forgive me if my memory is a little sketchy but I believe that there is at least one duplicate MAL chassis number out there, that said there are probably less MAL cars made than some of the published books would lead one to believe!!
You may well be rightForgive me if my memory is a little sketchy but I believe that there is at least one duplicate MAL chassis number out there, that said there are probably less MAL cars made than some of the published books would lead one to believe!!
However from the info I have they go from 1 to 22 however there are two where the research does not list the number one being the 4WD Wide Bodied car
With 6 wide bodied confirmed known cars
and 6 Tuscan/Vixen 2500 V8 Cars 2 I am aware have no Tuscan features apart from engine I have not seen pictures of the others.
So 10 gaps with one other car known to be in Europe and not sure of Body style so 24 in total if his extensive research is correct
Andrew
RobMk2a said:
Neil,
Thank you - on the blocks whilst I agree that 302 block may be possible is there any evidence to show that any of the LWB cars were originally built with a 302 block.
Without doing more research I'll have to defer to those with better knowledge.
Regards
Rob
Better get back to my Grantura racing research!
Yes Rob it does seem that the MAL bodied cars at least some had early 302 Blocks Thank you - on the blocks whilst I agree that 302 block may be possible is there any evidence to show that any of the LWB cars were originally built with a 302 block.
Without doing more research I'll have to defer to those with better knowledge.
Regards
Rob
Better get back to my Grantura racing research!
Andrew
PS Your Grantura research is fantastic keep it going
DavidY said:
Andrew
Check out the last half of this page http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and this
http://www.accelit.ch/Tuscan-e_files/CarFolio%20TV...
and the 'mysterious' French Car -
http://allautosinfo.com/discussion/11004706/1967-t...
The accuracy of either is obviously to be verified (and all is public domain information)
I don't anyone will get to the bottom of this, and I susepct that these cars will keep coming out of the Woodwork (pun intended) for as long as we all live!
Thanks David Check out the last half of this page http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and this
http://www.accelit.ch/Tuscan-e_files/CarFolio%20TV...
and the 'mysterious' French Car -
http://allautosinfo.com/discussion/11004706/1967-t...
The accuracy of either is obviously to be verified (and all is public domain information)
I don't anyone will get to the bottom of this, and I susepct that these cars will keep coming out of the Woodwork (pun intended) for as long as we all live!
yes I was aware of those threads however it seems like there was 24 max and they where certainly not all wide bodied cars
However its the none wide bodied Vixen trimmed V8s that are interesting and would be interesting to see if they where all the same without the features or did some have the features if anyone knows of MAL numbered V8 non wide bodied car with all the normal Tuscan SE features I would be interested to know as that's one of the reasons for posting here and not elsewhere so maybe someone will find the thread and more info will come out
Andrew
Dollyman1850 said:
DavidY said:
Andrew
Forgive me if my memory is a little sketchy but I believe that there is at least one duplicate MAL chassis number out there, that said there are probably less MAL cars made than some of the published books would lead one to believe!!
I also know of at least 1 genuine wide body that doesn't have a Mal Chassis number!Forgive me if my memory is a little sketchy but I believe that there is at least one duplicate MAL chassis number out there, that said there are probably less MAL cars made than some of the published books would lead one to believe!!
N.
Andrew
Dollyman1850 said:
This one doesn't have a MAL chassis number for instance…It may have once upon a time but not now.
N.
Its the None Wide Bodied cars that the thread is aimed at discovering more on although a separate thread on the Wide Bodied cars I would love to read as I know even less about them than the others
Andrew
davepen said:
Andrew Gray said:
The Genuine V8 Cars ...
The Thread is really about those cars and the interesting details and in a way a missing gap in the V8 TVR Story.
And not about the Fully Specked Tuscan SE Cars
Andrew
Andrew, to be honest much of the confusion on the other threads has been caused by yourself. There isn't really a missing gap. In 1976 Filby didn't help with his footnote saying there were 21 Wide bodied cars, built 1968 to 1971. This was then quoted in the other books. As listed in the Swiss MAL010 document, the MAL series were much more complicated, as you say, Guy (and others) have done much work tracking down cars in the USA, this forming the basis of the published MAL010 register. So this isn't new breaking news - except perhaps in Kent.The Thread is really about those cars and the interesting details and in a way a missing gap in the V8 TVR Story.
And not about the Fully Specked Tuscan SE Cars
Andrew
Perhaps you could expand on the details that make a real V8. Of course the existence of any car on the register, doesn't mean that it is now to the same build standard as when it left Blackpool. Many have been restored, and some had a (hard) life as a race car.
RobMk2a said:
is there any evidence to show that any of the LWB cars were originally built with a 302 block.
Rob, your best bet maybe to chat to Ian M-C ; see you Saturday 
.However this thread is NOT about these cars.
This thread is about the MAL cars that went to the states and sold as Tuscans by the US importer so far Other peoples research and a small bit of my research has revealed that these Vixen specked cars had V8 Engines and where sold there as Tuscan SE cars.
If you want to say How they left the factory well then you would have to say Engineless just like the Griffiths as the engines where fitted stateside Not Here as during the MAL Period late 60s and maybe early 70s the supply of Ford V8 Engines had dried up here in the UK or that's what those at the factory tell me.
As said earlier I know of two cars in the US where the owners have cars that match this description and one MAL008 will be featured and covered more in the Documentary that is being released shortly in DVD and I am sure will explain more.
you asked David
Perhaps you could expand on the details that make a real V8
In Short a V8 engine
However what makes a real V8 SE car well that is a different question and the SE Features have been dealt will in other threads and as this thread is nothing to do with those LW cars there is no need to say more.
What would be good and the intention of this thread here rather than elsewhere is the hope that someone sees the thread and realises that they had one of these MAL cars new and could enlighten us more as to there history.
No it is not breaking news in Kent I have been in touch with Guy for several years and have read his research however when the cars where described as Non Wide Bodied Vixen bodied cars that could be also describing the LW cars as they shared the bodies although the bonnet was different.
It would be interesting to know more about the MAL V8 NON Wide bodied cars and maybe this thread will bring past owners out of the woodwork that can share some light on this.
Andrew
Edited by Andrew Gray on Friday 9th October 07:46
USTVRDUDE said:
Stumbled here after seeing the MAL thread on fb. Thought a video of my car might be of interest. A "real SE" MAL Tuscan V8 non Wide-Body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RVmYa73kZ4
Yours is certainly the only MAL car that seems to have the full Tuscan SE Features all the rest seem to just have standard Vixen Tuscan V6 features i would be delighted if other owners read this and come on and say theres have as well.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RVmYa73kZ4
Its been interesting researching these and Guy Dirkins documents have been a help however when he did the research he was looking more for wide bodied or standard bodied whereas i have been trying to work out special equipment against standard equipment on the MAL Non Wide Bodied.
Even though some seem to think this creates a confusion its a fact they exist and hence why i have been interested to find out how many and why.
Apart from the suggestion from one well know Tuscan owner of cost saving i have not really got much further
Andrew
USTVRDUDE said:
I am not sure where some very poor pictures I took of MAL006 ended up. That car (or more accurately, the flyer for) ended up at Woodwork some 13 years ago or so. I did go see the car on the way out of the east coast. At this point I can't even remember if I had a super cheap camera, a new super cheap digital camera or a disposable camera, al I remember was it was dark and the pics were eh... But I actually remember a link or page with better pics somewhere.... wonder if I could find that or its still up. The cool thing about that car was it had a brake problem in about 1971 and had been parked ever since. IIRC with less than 10K miles.
Just tried to look and this
http://thumbsnap.com/Ay4TIYDZ
from GT Rene in Early TVR pics is actually MAL006, not LW 006 but I will keep looking. And yes, Guy Dirkins info was quite invaluable. I was able to trace down previous owners of my car and when color was changed, what mods, etc. I do know mine being the first 302 car was kind of a demonstrator for Gerry Sagerman and then Ray Walle before being sold on.
Cheers Bill Just tried to look and this
http://thumbsnap.com/Ay4TIYDZ
from GT Rene in Early TVR pics is actually MAL006, not LW 006 but I will keep looking. And yes, Guy Dirkins info was quite invaluable. I was able to trace down previous owners of my car and when color was changed, what mods, etc. I do know mine being the first 302 car was kind of a demonstrator for Gerry Sagerman and then Ray Walle before being sold on.
Looks a nice car it would be interesting to see more the Window frames are as Tuscan not Vixen however the heater vents on the side for dual heating are not there though as you would expect.
I was not aware yours was the first 302 but that makes sense as the 289 engines had stopped being available at that point or at least where available so made sense to use as they where being sold as new cars not period racers
.On another note when you edit a post on here you can delete the last edit or edits so your post only has one edit footnote.
Andrew
RobMk2a said:
Andrew Gray - MAL013 is for sale at auction via Moss Green in Australia do you know any history for the car.
Rob
Sorry i missed this dont get over here as often these days have you a link on the car sale Rob i dont think its one i have seen pictures of the MAL non Wide body cars are all so different as someone recently said they when Run on cars as built during the time they knew they where going on to the M Series how true that is i am unsure but it would explain the lack of certain features etc Rob
Andrew
Flatdash said:
Nice looking car the link to the Auction does not give any details however like most of the MAL V8s but not all there is virtually no difference between that and a Vixen or V6 Tuscan appart from the engine and the Engine bay set up and features dont link up with the LW Chassis cars it would be interesting if the body is bonded on or Bolt on Andrew
RobMk2a said:
Andrew Gray - MAL013 is for sale at auction via Moss Green in Australia do you know any history for the car.
Rob
Rob where did the seller say that it was MAL13 as that would not link up with MAL01 being a full wide bodied car and that being a long time after 1967 by several years then this being a 67 registered car it does not add up.Rob
MAL13 was in Holland a Number of years ago
Andrew
RobMk2a said:
Andrew Gray said:
RobMk2a said:
Andrew Gray - MAL013 is for sale at auction via Moss Green in Australia do you know any history for the car.
Rob
Rob where did the seller say that it was MAL13 as that would not link up with MAL01 being a full wide bodied car and that being a long time after 1967 by several years then this being a 67 registered car it does not add up.Rob
MAL13 was in Holland a Number of years ago
Andrew
EdIt - MAL cars are not really my area of interest but wouldn't a 67 car have a LW chassis number.
Rob
Edited by RobMk2a on Thursday 6th October 08:15
Andrew
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