1992 Jaguar XJR-S
Discussion
Having bought this from PHer CharlesdeGaulle I thought I'd start a new owners thread. This was his
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
So anyway I'd wanted an XJS for years and had followed CdGs purchase of this car with interest. I've run an X300 4 litre sovereign and an X305 6 litre XJ12 in the past and enjoyed them enormously, both proving to be flawlessly reliable over fairly high mileages. I'd always been put off my the 3 speed auto that all but the last 6 litre XJS had, but only for the same reason that I would find a 3.2 XJ6 so unsatisfactory to own knowing that the 4.0 exists.
Two divorces and unexpected bonus twins have caused an interesting car drought in my life over the last 5 years. Things are looking good again now though, so I felt it was time to scratch the itch. I looked at another XJ12 but felt that as a second fun car it was too boring, I considered MX5s, MGBs, a DeLorean (pushing the boat out budget wise!), and then saw mention in the barge thread that CdG would be looking to sell his car soon. After a somewhat tortuous process to view and finally purchase the car here we are.
I had not been near an XJS in person for years before viewing the car, and was surprised anew at just how unlike anything else it looks. As CdG has described the car is in good overall condition, there is some lacquer peel on both bumpers which I suspect is due to the painting process used at JaguarSport, both front wings are bubbling a little but are about 18-24 months away from being urgent, the bonnet has been resprayed at the colour match is not quite right, but otherwise it's in remarkable condition for 24 years and 98,000 miles. The wheels in particular look like new, it's certainly less rotten than any 1992 MX5 you're likely to find
I've covered 250 miles in the week since collecting it, which have been thoroughly enjoyable and very interesting. First of all:
That's the average economy. Eeek. That's not so much from giving it the beans as it was doing well at 18mpg when I was making progress, a cross city trip on Sunday really hammered it.
Impressions? Well, it is an absolutely wonderful car in many ways. The engine seems much more raw here than in the XJ12, you can hear it when you're pressing on and because it's at 3000rpm at a motorway cruise you can hear it then too. There is no vibration from it of course, but by modern standards it is loud in the cabin. I am struggling to describe the character of the engine because from dawdling speed to criminal speed it's just a case of perfectly linear power delivery from any engine speed to any engine speed with no gear changes. Acceleration above 70 in particular is very entertaining. It is a fantastic engine.
The interior is a case of lovely materials and terrible ergonomics, with all sorts of features from before the time when cars became so homogenised. Favourites are the flip up mirror in the glove box lid, and the climate control system that gives you absolutely no control over air distribution whatsoever. The autolux leather is beautifully soft but the seats are not particularly comfortable, and your left leg is squashed against the warm transmission tunnel. An XJ40 feels far more "modern" to drive and be in, let alone an X300.
All in all while it is fabulous and I've rapidly falling in love it also serves as a really interesting lesson in just how far we've come and how much motoring has changed, in good and bad ways. For all the hyperbole about continent crushing abilities I suspect you'd have a quieter, more comfortable, and more restful 500 mile trip in an automatic Ford Focus than in this car. Equally well many of the criticisms always levelled at the XJS do not ring true. Visibility is really quite good, turning circle it better than many large FWD cars, the width is modest by modern standards, and I have found it to be easy to park and easy to drive in city traffic.
That all sounds very negative, but I am merely being objective in assessing it. I love it, it's absolutely everything I hoped it would be, and I'm already making a list of small jobs to do before it goes away for it's new wings and front end respray in the spring.
Oh yeah, and an overdrive top gear would be great. 3000RPM at 80 is absurd for a car with nearly 500NM of torque from 1500RPM. Does make for amusing acceleration on the motorway though.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
So anyway I'd wanted an XJS for years and had followed CdGs purchase of this car with interest. I've run an X300 4 litre sovereign and an X305 6 litre XJ12 in the past and enjoyed them enormously, both proving to be flawlessly reliable over fairly high mileages. I'd always been put off my the 3 speed auto that all but the last 6 litre XJS had, but only for the same reason that I would find a 3.2 XJ6 so unsatisfactory to own knowing that the 4.0 exists.
Two divorces and unexpected bonus twins have caused an interesting car drought in my life over the last 5 years. Things are looking good again now though, so I felt it was time to scratch the itch. I looked at another XJ12 but felt that as a second fun car it was too boring, I considered MX5s, MGBs, a DeLorean (pushing the boat out budget wise!), and then saw mention in the barge thread that CdG would be looking to sell his car soon. After a somewhat tortuous process to view and finally purchase the car here we are.
I had not been near an XJS in person for years before viewing the car, and was surprised anew at just how unlike anything else it looks. As CdG has described the car is in good overall condition, there is some lacquer peel on both bumpers which I suspect is due to the painting process used at JaguarSport, both front wings are bubbling a little but are about 18-24 months away from being urgent, the bonnet has been resprayed at the colour match is not quite right, but otherwise it's in remarkable condition for 24 years and 98,000 miles. The wheels in particular look like new, it's certainly less rotten than any 1992 MX5 you're likely to find
I've covered 250 miles in the week since collecting it, which have been thoroughly enjoyable and very interesting. First of all:
That's the average economy. Eeek. That's not so much from giving it the beans as it was doing well at 18mpg when I was making progress, a cross city trip on Sunday really hammered it.
Impressions? Well, it is an absolutely wonderful car in many ways. The engine seems much more raw here than in the XJ12, you can hear it when you're pressing on and because it's at 3000rpm at a motorway cruise you can hear it then too. There is no vibration from it of course, but by modern standards it is loud in the cabin. I am struggling to describe the character of the engine because from dawdling speed to criminal speed it's just a case of perfectly linear power delivery from any engine speed to any engine speed with no gear changes. Acceleration above 70 in particular is very entertaining. It is a fantastic engine.
The interior is a case of lovely materials and terrible ergonomics, with all sorts of features from before the time when cars became so homogenised. Favourites are the flip up mirror in the glove box lid, and the climate control system that gives you absolutely no control over air distribution whatsoever. The autolux leather is beautifully soft but the seats are not particularly comfortable, and your left leg is squashed against the warm transmission tunnel. An XJ40 feels far more "modern" to drive and be in, let alone an X300.
All in all while it is fabulous and I've rapidly falling in love it also serves as a really interesting lesson in just how far we've come and how much motoring has changed, in good and bad ways. For all the hyperbole about continent crushing abilities I suspect you'd have a quieter, more comfortable, and more restful 500 mile trip in an automatic Ford Focus than in this car. Equally well many of the criticisms always levelled at the XJS do not ring true. Visibility is really quite good, turning circle it better than many large FWD cars, the width is modest by modern standards, and I have found it to be easy to park and easy to drive in city traffic.
That all sounds very negative, but I am merely being objective in assessing it. I love it, it's absolutely everything I hoped it would be, and I'm already making a list of small jobs to do before it goes away for it's new wings and front end respray in the spring.
Oh yeah, and an overdrive top gear would be great. 3000RPM at 80 is absurd for a car with nearly 500NM of torque from 1500RPM. Does make for amusing acceleration on the motorway though.
craigjm said:
Great car, I have been following the original thread as CDG has been following mine on the restoration and subtle modernisation of my XJ Coupe which also has the 6.0 XJR-S engine in it. Regarding the gearbox I am in discussions at the moment with a company that produce a supplementary gearbox that you add in to the drivetrain and it in essence gives you either an underdrive or overdrive in each gear based on the original setup so in essence gives you a 6 speed box. If I get somewhere with it would you be interested in a joint purchase to maybe get a discount? Costs are around 2k I think but should be able to return a combined MPG of about 22mpg and a top gear cruise at 80 of around 2000rpm to make it much more relaxed. Let me know your initial thoughts
Interesting. Like an old school OD unit. My initial concern would be it's ability to cope with the torque output, I guess they supply the US market so know a thing or two about that? I have no complaints about acceleration in any of the three gears really, but dropping the engine speed at cruise would be very nice. £2000 is a lot less than the cost of replacing the 3 speed auto with a 4 speed GM auto (generously offered by KWE for £8k or so) and corresponding change of diff to replicate what Jaguar did with the later 4 speed cars. There are a fair few people who've converted cars to manual but I think after the first hour of hilarious fun a manual would be totally undesirable in an XJS.Edited by dme123 on Monday 17th October 16:05
craigjm said:
Dave, the company has got back to me. The gear splitters are 3 grand plus vat and fitting!!
Ooof, that's probably going to come in at £5 - £6k including vat and fitting. If it were a daily driver I'd consider it, but I'll consider the old school gearing to be part of the charm!With respect to the bork potential raised by SebringMan I might be deluding myself but I really don't think it's that much of a risk. Rust/bodywork could get ugly, but mechanically it is simple, robust, and at this stage the foibles and weaknesses are very well known. I think part of the terrifying reputation they have comes from people in the 80s/90s picking one up for the price of a 6 year old Sierra, and then backstreet garages not really knowing what they are doing and working up big labour bills on diagnosis, and then the extra cost due to the time taken due to poor accessibility. If you're used to 1980s/90s family car running costs then yes it is horrific, but compared to an XJ6 I'm not so sure.
These days with vast internet resources available for fault finding and part location, and a range of experienced and well advertised specialists available I really think it will be manageable. Worst case scenario the Zytek engine management system dies completely and I have to go for an aftermarket engine management system or buy one of the rare 2nd hand ECUs. Let's call that £2-3k in either case. I know people with 6 year old Mercs that have had more than one bill like that. Routine maintenance is not even wildly costly, replacing the coil, ignition amplifier, cap+rotor, and leads will probably cost £400 - £500 in parts and consume a happy Sunday in the garage. Probably only £100 - £200 more than for a 6 cylinder car and a bit of extra time.
FWIW fuel cost is around £70 - £80 for 250 miles.
I guess time will tell...
craigjm said:
Dave, what diff do you have in that car. As you know I have the same engine but I dont know whether they changed the diff. Mine is a 3.54 was wondering what it should be to match that engine
It should be a 2.88 with the 3 speed autobox, and top gear in that box is 1:1. From fag packet maths that sounds about right for my car.I imagine a 3.54 would make it quite lively off the line but it must be screaming at higher speeds? From memory when they moved to the 4 speed box with an overdrive 4th gear they dropped the final drive ratio to liven up acceleration a bit and still drop the engine speed in top gear, and the Pre HE cars had a higher ratio too.
Well I've had my first snag. Went to unlock it today and the central locking didn't fire. Uh-oh. Battery is dead flat. Now I can't say I'm particularly surprised, it's a crap brand battery and way too small so I think someone just chucked it in to get the car moving at some point in the past.
Internet wisdom says it's an 096 battery, but having been bitten by this before I actually measured the battery tray and it absolutely is NOT an 096. I believe it's an 027, so I'll pick one up tomorrow. Turns out that a "Lion" battery might be cheap to buy, but Lions drop dead as soon as the weather gets a bit cold.
Internet wisdom says it's an 096 battery, but having been bitten by this before I actually measured the battery tray and it absolutely is NOT an 096. I believe it's an 027, so I'll pick one up tomorrow. Turns out that a "Lion" battery might be cheap to buy, but Lions drop dead as soon as the weather gets a bit cold.
craigjm said:
The correct battery definitely is an 096. The 027 is only 60amp whereas the 096 is 75amp.
From what I can see on the JEC bulletin board they must have made a change sometime after '92. I took a tape measure to the battery tray and there is no way a 096 will fit. I've also measured the top bracket that sits around the battery and that is 175mm wide x 255mm long. A 096 battery is 2cm too long to fit inside the bracket or in the tray, it's 175mm x 278mm. An 027 is 175mm x 242mm.I'd far rather have a bigger battery, believe me!
craigjm said:
An 027 is physically the same size though just lower ampage
From everything I can find an 096 is 278L x 175W x 190H and an 027 is 242L x 175W x 190H. 278mm is comfortably longer than the largest battery that'll fit under the bracket or in the tray.I have read on one battery finder site than an '88 - '92 XJS uses a 075 battery, which is the same footprint as an 027 but 15cm shorter.
Right I got to the bottom of this. Here is a diagram of the battery tray for early facelift cars. If your VIN is 1000 or so later than mine you got a clamp on the bottom of the battery rather than the top frame.
The original fit was a 088 battery which at 245mm L x 175mm H will fit exactly inside that frame. They are 220mm high and the couple of I can find to buy are 68Ah and 505 CCA. They are not a common size and there is a limited selection available now.
Other owners have used 075 and 027 as they will fit. They both have a 242mm L x 175mm W footprint and vary only in height. Both are widely available from various manufacturers. Having had several strong recommendations from owners and seeing an entry in the Jag-Lovers enormous book to running an XJS I have decided to try an Optima Red Top AGM battery that fits almost exactly in the right place. This kicks out a substantially higher starting current than any of the lead acid originals and there are owners who've had them for 7 - 8 trouble free years. They self discharge more slowly than standard batteries and are sealed and maintenance free.
The battery in there was an off brand type 063 with 40Ah of capacity and a CCA rating of 340, so a Fiesta or Corsa sized battery. I am amazed it could even turn the engine over, and not at all surprised it's died of over exertion.
The original fit was a 088 battery which at 245mm L x 175mm H will fit exactly inside that frame. They are 220mm high and the couple of I can find to buy are 68Ah and 505 CCA. They are not a common size and there is a limited selection available now.
Other owners have used 075 and 027 as they will fit. They both have a 242mm L x 175mm W footprint and vary only in height. Both are widely available from various manufacturers. Having had several strong recommendations from owners and seeing an entry in the Jag-Lovers enormous book to running an XJS I have decided to try an Optima Red Top AGM battery that fits almost exactly in the right place. This kicks out a substantially higher starting current than any of the lead acid originals and there are owners who've had them for 7 - 8 trouble free years. They self discharge more slowly than standard batteries and are sealed and maintenance free.
The battery in there was an off brand type 063 with 40Ah of capacity and a CCA rating of 340, so a Fiesta or Corsa sized battery. I am amazed it could even turn the engine over, and not at all surprised it's died of over exertion.
craigjm said:
An O63 was the standard battery for any BL/Rover car under 2.0 engine size during the 80s and 90s. I am amazed that even kicked it over.
Well the car is always reluctant to fire when even slightly warm or hot, it turns over for 2 - 4 seconds before catching. Starts instantly when cold. I'm wondering if this feeble battery is the cause, that the voltage is sagging too low when turning over the engine. Seems a long shot, I was thinking it was more likely to be an ignition or sensor problem, but I'll find out on Tuesday.Well I've now found my two first bits of bodgery. Firstly I went to change a headlamp bulb as only one is working on full beam. Turns out some monkey had lost the spring clip for the NS lamp so had stuck the bulb in with silicone sealant. What the f
k goes through these peoples tiny little minds?? I'm going to get the lamp out and see what sort of mess they've made, and try to get a new spring clip.
Second bit was to find out why the Radio permanent power feed kept blowing fuses. Turns out someone had wired the switched and permanent 12V from the car into the replacement head unit the wrong way round. Easy mistake, easily rectified. Of course that would be too sensible so instead they joined the two cables together with a scotch block. As soon as your turn the car off the radio tries to keep going and draw current from the permanent 12V feed and blows the fuse. Auto electrics really does seem to be 95% bodgers. Probably explains the battery getting flattened too.
k goes through these peoples tiny little minds?? I'm going to get the lamp out and see what sort of mess they've made, and try to get a new spring clip.Second bit was to find out why the Radio permanent power feed kept blowing fuses. Turns out someone had wired the switched and permanent 12V from the car into the replacement head unit the wrong way round. Easy mistake, easily rectified. Of course that would be too sensible so instead they joined the two cables together with a scotch block. As soon as your turn the car off the radio tries to keep going and draw current from the permanent 12V feed and blows the fuse. Auto electrics really does seem to be 95% bodgers. Probably explains the battery getting flattened too.
Fixed the cruise control today! In 1992 they moved the XJS over to the system used in the XJ40 and later X300 so it has a vacuum pump fixed to the inner wing, a separate dump valve, and then a smaller bellows than the old system. The bellows held a vacuum so I thought I'd start with the basics and cleaned all the connectors. Success! It worked. For a bit. Well, half an hour.
Stopped working again now, and the heated seat that worked once has also decided it's had enough and the LED on the switch doesn't even come on. At least I know the cruise CAN work! I also discovered that to top it up the oil from the E mark to the F mark on the dipstick takes 2.6 litres of oil. Wow.
Stopped working again now, and the heated seat that worked once has also decided it's had enough and the LED on the switch doesn't even come on. At least I know the cruise CAN work! I also discovered that to top it up the oil from the E mark to the F mark on the dipstick takes 2.6 litres of oil. Wow.
Edited by dme123 on Sunday 6th November 14:25
I think the time of thinking of these as "old mans cars" is long gone. Now they are just unique, distinctive, and interesting. Of course they were mostly driven by old men new though, who else had £45k to spend on a car in 1992 except old white men?
Edited by dme123 on Wednesday 9th November 22:30
I've finally found the time to investigate the radio issues in depth. It turns out that the ignition switched 12V supply never switched on. To "fix" this issue someone has at some point just joined the permanent 12V feed to the switched feed with a scotch block so the radio will power up. Downside of this, as mentioned, is that it keeps blowing the little 5 amp fuse for the radio memory circuit. As a temporary fix I admit that I put in a bigger fuse. We'll come back to this.
After some investigation of the wiring diagram it turns out that the switched 12V feed to the radio comes (inexplicably) through the heated seat relay. Heated seats don't work, although they did work one time I tested it. Ah, yes, that would be because the common output from the heated seat relay to the radio and the seat heater control modules was getting +12V from the scotch blocked connection at the radio loom! No wonder those fuses didn't last long.
Anyway that relay is dead. It's a fairly common 30amp 5 pin relay commonly used as a fuel pump relay, with a common output rather than a switchover output so I should be able to pick one up tomorrow. Oh and one final finding was that the amplifier switch-on output from the head unit had been inexplicably wired to the lighting control wire on the cars loom.
The more time I spend poking around under the dash and in the innards of this car the more I appreciate how far things have come in terms of the quality of engineering in automotive electronics.
After some investigation of the wiring diagram it turns out that the switched 12V feed to the radio comes (inexplicably) through the heated seat relay. Heated seats don't work, although they did work one time I tested it. Ah, yes, that would be because the common output from the heated seat relay to the radio and the seat heater control modules was getting +12V from the scotch blocked connection at the radio loom! No wonder those fuses didn't last long.
Anyway that relay is dead. It's a fairly common 30amp 5 pin relay commonly used as a fuel pump relay, with a common output rather than a switchover output so I should be able to pick one up tomorrow. Oh and one final finding was that the amplifier switch-on output from the head unit had been inexplicably wired to the lighting control wire on the cars loom.
The more time I spend poking around under the dash and in the innards of this car the more I appreciate how far things have come in terms of the quality of engineering in automotive electronics.
The only "modification" was the splicing together of battery and ignition switched 12V feeds on the audio loom. It was Jaguars clever idea to run the switched circuit for the radio through the seat heater circuit. Only the top spec XJS had seat heaters, but the wiring diagram only shows it being run through the seat heater relay so I think it would have been more sensible to call it "ignition switched circuit relay 2" or something. To be fair without serious effort to diagnose I can see why you'd just end up pinching power off the permanent 12V feed!
Finding a relay over the counter is harder than I'd hoped, so I'll order one from the internet now.
Finding a relay over the counter is harder than I'd hoped, so I'll order one from the internet now.
Edited by dme123 on Friday 25th November 22:10
Radio is working, heated seats working! I *think* the base but not back of the drivers seat is heated but they are so tepid compared to modern heated seats it's hard to be sure.
All is not well where the radio is concerned, there is no sound from the back left speaker at all and it generally sounds a bit rubbish. I took off one of the door cars to look at the speaker and this is revealed
I need to take out one of the rears to see if they are the same size, but I think some new speakers need to be ordered!
All is not well where the radio is concerned, there is no sound from the back left speaker at all and it generally sounds a bit rubbish. I took off one of the door cars to look at the speaker and this is revealed
I need to take out one of the rears to see if they are the same size, but I think some new speakers need to be ordered!
In the process of replacing the speakers I discovered that the bodger has been there before too. The NSR speaker was held in with a single screw and not connected, explaining it's lack of function.
I've also ordered the two coils and link lead to convert the car to dual coil, as per a 1999 TSB from Jaguar. That'll be boxing day sorted.
ETA - the bodger didn't just confine themselves to the radio. Looking at the coil there is only one bolt holding it down, and then upon removing the trim to look at the rear speaker I discover seat bolts done up finger tight, and a speaker totally disconnected and held in with only one of three screws.
I then notice that the oil pressure switch (separate from the oil pressure sender) has a broken connector, which seems odd as the oil pressure warning light isn't lit. Ah, it doesn't even illuminate with the ignition on but engine stopped. I suspect someone has removed the bulb rather than replace the £3 oil pressure switch.
Then, to cap it off, I notice that the crankcase breather that should connect with a pipe to both airboxes actually vents to atmosphere. Needless to say the JaguarSport XJR-S specific crosspipe is missing.
What the fk possesses these animals.
I've also ordered the two coils and link lead to convert the car to dual coil, as per a 1999 TSB from Jaguar. That'll be boxing day sorted.
ETA - the bodger didn't just confine themselves to the radio. Looking at the coil there is only one bolt holding it down, and then upon removing the trim to look at the rear speaker I discover seat bolts done up finger tight, and a speaker totally disconnected and held in with only one of three screws.
I then notice that the oil pressure switch (separate from the oil pressure sender) has a broken connector, which seems odd as the oil pressure warning light isn't lit. Ah, it doesn't even illuminate with the ignition on but engine stopped. I suspect someone has removed the bulb rather than replace the £3 oil pressure switch.
Then, to cap it off, I notice that the crankcase breather that should connect with a pipe to both airboxes actually vents to atmosphere. Needless to say the JaguarSport XJR-S specific crosspipe is missing.
What the f
k possesses these animals.Edited by dme123 on Saturday 17th December 14:46
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