Finally pictures of our Twin v6 205 - Only on Piston heads

Finally pictures of our Twin v6 205 - Only on Piston heads

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PRD Motorsport

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Monday 29th March 2010
quotequote all
For those who have asked me time and time for updates!

Twin V6 205 (Very embarrassing when people ask!)

5 year project (moved house twice)

Built for fun, and for under £6.

Built entirely by myself with help from my friend Johnny with the glass fibre

2x STD 3.0 ltr v6 (es9j4)
Twin kms ecu setup
4x Custom Coilovers
Glass fibre rear hatch
Raised gear stick
Glass fibre dash

Approx 400-450 combined bhp
380-420 lbs/ft

Once finished I could simply covert to rwd by replacing the engine in the front with a fuel tank for track days,

To be mapped at Mikanics end of summer!

Here is the most recent pictures of our project, however much more work has been completed since.



















Love to hear your views and comments!

PRD Motorsport

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Monday 29th March 2010
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oups I ment 6 k

PRD Motorsport

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Tuesday 30th March 2010
quotequote all
EDLT said:
How much 205 is actually left under the bodywork?
That’s a good question! Not much at all, front chassis legs, floor pan, some of the rear chassis legs, A and B pillars and the roof, the only thing I can think of that hasn’t be modified is the windscreen of course only if you don’t regard the sun strip as a mod.

The Black Flash said:
Utterly, utterly brilliant. bowclap

Any more info? I'd love to see how you've connected the drive from the two engines together.
The engines are only connected together via shifter cables, clutch and throttle cables, all are fully adjustable including rate, balance and ramp angle. Two engines running in one car, simply creates double the torque and bhp at ANY given rpm scale. They simply work along side each other, regardless of their power differences. A simpler way to understand is imagining one person pushing a car then someone else helping out with out going into to much detail with extra weight, and how state of tune can develop different handling and balance characteristics

The rear engine is cooled via two small Civic radiators installed in each rear arch, I have used 406 drive shafts, hubs, 305mm disks, Brembo callipers all round and a 406 servo to avoid any clearance problems with the engine in the front. The exhaust has two separate systems which each have there own unique design to allow top end performance for front and low down torque on the rear, which all ends up going through one tail pipe. Rims will be fitted with 240/610/17 yoko full slicks

No traction control, no abs, no PS, no bullst


WEREWOLF said:
Martin ....what a crap car....lol.....you ordered my gauges and bushes yet?.....

dont think i can make it over to johnnies on sat btw...oh and you can put your graphics on pug if you want..

paul..

Edited by WEREWOLF on Tuesday 30th March 00:00
Paul,

Still waiting on company about the dials, although I have looking else where in the meantime. Almost bought some bushes yesterday until I started pondering about replacing with bronze rod I can machine on Johnny’s lathe. Though not to worry I guarantee they will be here way before you will need them, when its looking like my car will be finished before yours!!

No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Tuesday 30th March 2010
quotequote all
Thanks for all the kind comments so far fella’s, though I do feel some people are missing the point or making it more complicated than it really is.

Firstly the engines do not fight against each other in any which way or form, but help each other, of course no engine is identical to each other, so forces will move back and fourth depending on how each engine is tuned and which becomes the master at that given rpm. For the strip I have set the cam timing for the rear engine to provide all the low down torque needed to launch, whilst the front engine will set to be slightly flat low down for reduced wheel spin but with massive top end power.

As for track days….. Well firstly I feel people are taking it far too seriously! Track days are for fun! And that’s exactly what my car has been built for, though its original purpose was for Santa pod hence the two engines, although after some thinking I also built it to be easily changed to mid engine rwd at track days by simply removing the engine in the front and replacing it with the fuel tank from the back while on my dinner hour, I must admit I also take track days a bit too serious too though that’s my job. I’m sure WEREWOLF can comment on this.

As for a twin engined 205 not handling, I would like to point out there are heavier less powerful similar sized cars that handle very well. I can’t comment on what the weight distribution will be exactly, however I have tried to get as close to 50/50 as possible, I feel its more like 60/40. Weight again I estimate to be around 1200 to 1350 kgs. Unlike the other twin engined cars, the es9j4 are all alloy engines bar the liners, which is slightly heavier than an 8v turbo but lighter than the T16 engine, every part of the car is adjustable which I will have to list below

1. Caster, camber, toe, bump steer, Ackermann angle, ride height, full damper control and spring rate
2. Engine state of tune (as above)
3. Clutch biting point
4. Brake balance
5. Front splitter, rear diffuser and rear wing (yet to build)
6. Rear sub frame (height and pitch)
7. Rear engine can move side to side and tilted for ease of counter weighting
8. Each throttle cable works on an adjustable cam design to give either engines the ability to become master or slave
9. Selection of roll bars to try out.
10. tyre width and type


With all of above there is more than enough adjustment to improve handling for either single or twin engined setup.



No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Wednesday 31st March 2010
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skid-mark said:
fareplay for doing all this work for your enjoyment think most of the comments about cornering issues is the engine at the front looks as thou it sits in front of the axle line,
where as the oringinal design has the engine on an angle to bring the weight more in line with the front wheels, pugs are well known for their cornering handling just be interesting to see if this has been affected if you choose to use both engines.

Just to add if you choose to remove the front engine make sure you keep the ends of the drive shafts in the wheel bearing/hub flange if these are removed and you drive the car with the shafts removed cornering forces can make the wheel bearing seperate then there's a chance your wheel could fly off as the drive shaft helps hold the bearing together.
Yes you are right about the position of the engine in relation of the original setup, cornering will be affected due to extra weight in the nose, similar concern with the Audi Quattro back in the day though still seen today. However this could also be seen as an advantage too with increased force bearing on the front tyres and reduced lift on launch, though for corners it reduces turn in response which I have tried to compensate with modifying the sub frame and wishbones to bring them further forward, which increase dynamic caster. Also the front track is four inches wider than standard too. IL ignore the driveshaft comment lol,

deviant said:
I'm still feeling a little dense...What heppens if the speed of each engine falls out of synch? So lets say you give it a decent start and the rear end grips and bogs the engine while the front end arks up with wheelspin, wouldnt you end up with one engine running at a higher engine speed and trying to drag the other engine up to speed?

Or what about if your cornering and again due to wheel spin one engine picks up revs and the other does not?
The engines are governed by the road, the same law as all other cars, if one looses grip it will simply resume until it matches the road speed which will be the same as the other engine, and again, for cornering it depends which engine loses grip, the front will understeer and the back will oversteer, but again depends on how trained your right foot is lol




300bhp/ton said:
Very cool.

Sorry didn't mean to come across bad, was just more curious on how it all worked and what it was like behind the wheel. On a very different scale I've ran twin motored RC vehicles in the past, so I know it does work.

What sort of ET's and traps did it run at Santa Pod?

smile
you didn’t come across bad lol, as for your nitro rc car I had to laugh, because I did a similar thing with Lego when I was knee high to a grass hopper, I loved tractor pulling after watching a old video called battle of the monster trucks and went about building a tractor with 4 Lego Technic motors and with a simple worm drive to move the payload on the sledge, they were the days, anyhow, the project still isn’t finished but once finished I’m looking for around 11.5 qtr at first then under ten next year after some track day laughs, the car before the project started did 13.9 qtr on std tyres and diff @210bhp and 850kgs, which upset a very proud owner of his long awaited imported Scooby, which I like to call Scooby snacks, Scooby Doo where are you?, of course it must of been the fault of the driver lol

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v728/tomoprd/?action=view&current=santapod139.flv][/URL]

Here are a couple of pictures before





Some interesting pictures here

http://forum.205gti.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4...

No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Monday 12th July 2010
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pmcuksnapper said:
Nikko 40691 said:
Any videos of this?
+1
There is only video so far, this can be found on youtube, search for PRD - Twin V6 205

420 said:
so annoying reading through here and seeing all this "can't be done mate can't be done" men of the trade st, everywhere you go there is always a "man of the world" that knows it all appriciate it or go home. ffs.
Anything’s possible, it's only bound by someone's imagination…

oh and if there’s a will then there’s a way


doogz said:
Do either or both of the gearboxes have LSD's fitted?

Top notch, fabrication looks excellent.

Setting up the geometry will be fun, it's gonna take a while to get everything dialed in just right though!
No LSD in either box at the moment, due to budget. However it is a future mod as well as electronic centre diff, each ecu sharing rpm scales, any wheel spin the correspondent ecu uses soft cut rev limiter to stop wheel spin.

Yes geometry is going to be a right pain!

Super Slo Mo said:
Max_Torque said:
Now, if that was mine, i'd be sticking on a electronic throttle on each engine, and a steering angle sensor and Yaw sensor, then map the engines for dynamic torque control, hoof the back out on the rear engine and then bring in the front one to hold the slide. active torque dynamics - sweet! lol!
Nah, too complicated. He just needs two accelerator pedals

And to learn to 'fiddle' throttle with both left and right feet
I have thought about this but in the meantime that can be left till later

Havant got loads of photos atm due to the car needing a bloody good clean! However loads of work has been done!!! But as always 5 jobs get finished, 5 more jobs get added!! Grrr. I’m still without suspension, hoping some advertisement on car may help cover the expenses. Had talks with Dave @ Gaz shocks and we have come up with a great setup and I’m very impressed with his knowledge and time for customers.

Finally got the rear engine running shortly after installing the fuel tank, I used a Bmw 3.2 M3 Map and after a couple of small changes had it running for the first time in 5 years! I’m presently surprised how quite it is too!

All was looking great, until I noticed the exhaust wrap, discolouring and falling off! I was not a happy bunny! So this had to come off and go in the bin! I’m now looking into an alternative to reducing the heat in the rear cabin and protecting hoses, lines and looms etc



No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Monday 17th January 2011
quotequote all
Closing update of a 6 year project up and coming, I will have to break it down as there has been so much work, ideas, etc

Hopefully tomorrow will be the first time both engine’s have ran together,

All the suspension has been fitted, just needing a very basic wheel alignment to be able to book in at the rolling road.

The only jobs remaining are:

Replace rear gear linkage cable - seized
Clutch mechanism
A few chips and scratches sorting out.
Cabin supports shortening.
Rear bumper needs some more cutting to fit exhaust.
Brake light connecting.
Calibrate speedo and get new cable made.

Pictures will soon follow. Its now finally made its way round and is now sitting in my tiny garage were its almost impossible to work on, extremely dusty, so it will need a good clean and better weather.

Video tomorrow if possible!

No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
I'm really really sorry guys I've not posted, everything but the car is going in every direction at the moment. Beginning to feel rather behind with updates which is making me a little unmotivated in doing one, so much has happened with the car in the last 6 months I've totally lost track with so I'm afraid I’ll have to miss most of it out and explain the most recent jobs etc.

For every 10 jobs I have crossed out on the board I write another 5 jobs on, I’ve been modifying for the sake of modding on already moded parts, will not be happy knowing something couldn’t be better, this is why I’m left with the last main job of the clutch setup, I’m on my last design before I have to take a tottaly new and radical change of direction, hopefully this week or next it will be sorted and off to the rolling road for mapping sessions.

Unfortunately due to my parents across the road moving house and their ill health the car has had to come home, which has now made working on the car a nightmare not only do I have less than a foot either side of the car to be able to work on it but a sloping drive I cant possible push it out for more space!

Where am I up too I hear? lol I’ve nearly finished (I said this 2 years ago) but since then I’ve moved house twice, been stuck with no paint to match, lack of funds and having to spend else where, it seams life time struggle. This is a personal build not a company's so no race, just want to get it right the first time and enjoy being able to thrash it with out dying

So the jobs left are:

Add coolant to both engines
Glue ecu's in place
Connect up gear linkages
Build clutch mech and bleed
Fit new AFM and volt gauge
Wire in brake light
Wash it
Map engines
Repair CV boot

I cant for the life of me add pictures, Photobucket Isn’t having it, also tried another site, that too wont except up loads, so the only other way is if someone could post them up for me, if I send pictures to their email address, other wise you will simply have to look on utube for PRD Twin v6 205.

I promise to post proper pictures and a video the rolling road session! Please bear with me.

Thanks

No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Tuesday 29th March 2011
quotequote all
Update time!!!

Well she's finally moved yesterday by her self, back and fourth on the drive. Today she has been taken to the local rolling road were she is now getting mapped as I write this!

Got 2 very small jobs left such as paint chip repairs etc, 3 adjusting jobs, clutch pedal height, clutch balance, throttle balance and final seting up gear linkages.

Still no photos, carnt work out why they wont upload??? however here are a few links to the update albums on my facebook


Old photos http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=25185&id...

July 10 http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=187358&i...

Jan 11 http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=276065&i...

Another video has been posted on utube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRTFUSWCPpo

All being well I should be able to pick it up tomorrow and already got a large flat private road to test it, Video soon!!!

Rolling road video and graphs up and coming!!

May not be able to post for the next couple of days, please bear with me

No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Friday 1st April 2011
quotequote all
She’s back at home after 4 days at the rolling road, yes a long time....also drank 40 litres of fuel in that time too,

Mapping wasn’t that straight forward as there was a few teething problems such as incorrectly wired map sensor on the front engine, I honestly missed this as I set up the ecu to read from the Tps sensor, also the Tdc sensor on the rear was missing a few teeth here and there so this also had to be replaced last of all gear linkages have been playing up since I changed the cable, so had to disconnect to suit when tuning each engine.

I owe a massive thank you to Mike and Mikeanics rolling road for not only a super service which has left me Very happy but for helping me out when I almost never got there in time, the available trailer was... well not available! however Mike was able to source me one in time and I cant thank him enough, I was already on edge getting it there and what bad thing could happen, but from using Mikes services for the last 9 years I know it was in more than capable hands, thanks Mike!

Ok so on to the results!

Front engine made 224bhp at 6349 rpm and 213 lb/ft @ 4693 rpm
Rear engine running alternator made 221bhp and 197 lb/ft @ 4988 rpm

Combined Bhp of 445bhp and 410 lb/ft Torque

I was so surprised how quite she is, its all induction noise, just wish I had a nearby tunnel!

Video of Dyno runs at Mikeanics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJnGqczRARM


oh...5 more jobs added to the board!! It just never ends!!

Test run video soon I hope!

Thanks for all your support!

No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Wednesday 13th April 2011
quotequote all
Finally some photos!!!

With just a couple of jobs such as a good clean, some touch ups to the paint and considering she just a track car, she is ready to roll.

I’ve had trouble all week holding myself back from taking her up the road and that’s all I need to do to be able to make all the necessary changes to the clutch and brake balance.

However as usual I may find my self replacing the tie rod ends front and back with spherical type and also mounting them the other way up so bump/roll steer is reversed. The gear linkages and mounts which are due to be replaced at the end of the year so there really isn’t much else I can do other than getting around to building huge spoilers front and back.

For next year I will be replacing the standard inlet cams (four cams) for rally spec and also designing direct mounted throttle bodies and free flow tubular exhaust manifolds to take power over 550bhp with the extra weight saving from being able to ditch the standard inlet manifolds, Throttle bodies and cast iron exhaust manifolds.













[url]
|http://thumbsnap.com/xOj0zpba[/url]


No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Wednesday 13th April 2011
quotequote all
She was going to be road legal but I changed my mind, the perfect track setting would not suit the road, with 600lb springs all round I would end up smashing the chassis with the pot holes of today. So the loom was taken out, as well as the head lights etc. the car has only seen the rolling road so far though has been driven on to the trailer, other than that she’s yet to get out of second gear.

All being well I should be able to book an afternoon session at Oulton Park in the next couple of weeks, other than using a car park I’m rather stuck being able to test her any other way.

No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Wednesday 19th October 2016
quotequote all
Its been far to long since the last update so will just post the most recent pics











Managed to get it on the track for a shakedown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pwgayMv0zA



Went really well, considering the car had done more than 50 mph for 10 years,

Only had over heating problems with the rear engine, due to the shift from pressure to suction in the rear cab that staled the radiators, high speed

Both engines are now full sequential both injection and ignition (cop) using a cam sensor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8k-BGFwoMw




Found the reason why it felt a bit flat on the track day, after remapping with the new Emerald k6 ecu upgrade,

Had to wrap the car after I took a huge piece of clear coat from the bodywork with and air line by accident, I had plenty of stress cracks in the cabin I need to sort anyhow.

The spoilers are just prototypes, they need to be molded from fiberglass after testing (next year)

















If I'm allowed to post the facebook page...then you will find thousands of photo and loads of videos from the start (2005) to present


No Guts No Glory

Original Poster:

28 posts

170 months

Saturday 22nd October 2016
quotequote all
Thanks for the lovely replies...same as usual haha

Its just a car I built to have fun with...nothing serious.

The spoilers are just prototypes they cost me £80 to build the wrap was £46...very early development stage. they have been built so I can cut them down if need be but I'm wanting as much down force as possible with out huge pitch and for more stability. The under tray has not been made yet, I have far to many plans for the future, but as I am building everything from scratch with my own bare hands it take time, 10 years so far.

You would be so surprised how well she does drive..bit like going from a mk1 golf to a mk5, officiously heaver but much more posed and stable, however the gear linkages are holding her back, twice now I have bough the wrong cables, they are agriculture grade so far to heavy duty.

Next year:

Twin Rotrex c38 superchargers
PTFE fuel lines (in progress)
Vented bonnet (in progress)
Sort gear linkages
Better camera (sorted!!!)