Anyone here owned a 997 C2/C2S and moved to 997 TT or GTR?
Discussion
Hi there
I've got a rather sorted 997 C2S, power wise 378BHP, as got most X51 kit on it, manifolds, radiators, throttlebody, filters, remap etc.
Suspension wise GT3 front arms, 20mm wider front track, 5mm spacers, GT3 anti-roll bars, -2 front camber, ceramic brakes along with Porsche aero kit.
So the car is very sorted handling wise for a Carrera, weighed in at 1420kg and has a nice extra dollop of power.
I was doing quite a few track days in it and the car was superb, but the expense in mainly tyres and brakes was huge to be frank and always the worry are damage on what is a completely pristine gorgeous example of a 997.1 C2S in speed yellow.
So I have now a dedicated track car which is now lapping quicker than my C2S was, E46 M3 SMG, 1300kg, 380BHP, Alcons, buckets and its extremely quick on track and the brakes far more powerful than even the ceramics on my 911.
So I have being contemplating maybe something a lot more powerful, hence a 997 Turbo, I'd be looking at 2006-2008 with Metzger engine and manual box.
But I am fully aware that the Turbo weighs in at 1600kg and might not quite have the handling balance and rawness of a C2S that has a lot of GT3 parts on it, the precision and soundtrack of my C2S, but it will of course be quicker in particular on the straight bits.
My concerns are, I love the 997 C2S rear engine handling characteristics, it feels beautiful and precise and as close as one will get to a GT3, but now I have an M3 track car I want a more suitable road car with big power and tuning ability. Question is does a Turbo still have the beautiful steering feel and does it still have the rear engine characteristics or are they a duller to drive compared to a C2S.
I've driven one 997 Turbo, but it was a tip and a friends, I found it not so great, power was nice though, but it was the TIP gearbox I just found carp.
So my question is has anyone here owned a 997 C2/C2S and moved to a Turbo or owned a C2S or Turbo and moved to an R35 GTR? If so I'd be really interested to hear from you how the C2S and 997 Turbo compared to drive? The other obvious car is a GTR, like the gearbox, launch control etc. but the car is huge and heavy, so not that enjoyable on narrow country roads, mainly due to size, but be good to hear from 997 owners who have moved to GTR on how they compare as well.
I've got a rather sorted 997 C2S, power wise 378BHP, as got most X51 kit on it, manifolds, radiators, throttlebody, filters, remap etc.
Suspension wise GT3 front arms, 20mm wider front track, 5mm spacers, GT3 anti-roll bars, -2 front camber, ceramic brakes along with Porsche aero kit.
So the car is very sorted handling wise for a Carrera, weighed in at 1420kg and has a nice extra dollop of power.
I was doing quite a few track days in it and the car was superb, but the expense in mainly tyres and brakes was huge to be frank and always the worry are damage on what is a completely pristine gorgeous example of a 997.1 C2S in speed yellow.
So I have now a dedicated track car which is now lapping quicker than my C2S was, E46 M3 SMG, 1300kg, 380BHP, Alcons, buckets and its extremely quick on track and the brakes far more powerful than even the ceramics on my 911.
So I have being contemplating maybe something a lot more powerful, hence a 997 Turbo, I'd be looking at 2006-2008 with Metzger engine and manual box.
But I am fully aware that the Turbo weighs in at 1600kg and might not quite have the handling balance and rawness of a C2S that has a lot of GT3 parts on it, the precision and soundtrack of my C2S, but it will of course be quicker in particular on the straight bits.
My concerns are, I love the 997 C2S rear engine handling characteristics, it feels beautiful and precise and as close as one will get to a GT3, but now I have an M3 track car I want a more suitable road car with big power and tuning ability. Question is does a Turbo still have the beautiful steering feel and does it still have the rear engine characteristics or are they a duller to drive compared to a C2S.
I've driven one 997 Turbo, but it was a tip and a friends, I found it not so great, power was nice though, but it was the TIP gearbox I just found carp.
So my question is has anyone here owned a 997 C2/C2S and moved to a Turbo or owned a C2S or Turbo and moved to an R35 GTR? If so I'd be really interested to hear from you how the C2S and 997 Turbo compared to drive? The other obvious car is a GTR, like the gearbox, launch control etc. but the car is huge and heavy, so not that enjoyable on narrow country roads, mainly due to size, but be good to hear from 997 owners who have moved to GTR on how they compare as well.
Edited by Gibbo205 on Wednesday 23 April 09:17
spareparts said:
I made the change from a GTS4 to a 7.2TurboS. The TurboS feels much lighter on its feet, more agile, quicker steering, and not as leaden at the helm.
That being said, I think there is a fair bit of difference in the chassis between a 7.1 and 7.2 Turbo, especially with the change to adopt PTM in the newer generation. PTM offers a significant step change in feel and dynamics compared to the old 7.1 viscous 4WD system.
Ah did not realise the suspension had a major overhaul in the generation change, thought it was just engine and PCM3.That being said, I think there is a fair bit of difference in the chassis between a 7.1 and 7.2 Turbo, especially with the change to adopt PTM in the newer generation. PTM offers a significant step change in feel and dynamics compared to the old 7.1 viscous 4WD system.
What is the PTM on the gen2 then?
spareparts said:
PTM is not the suspension. It's the entire drivetrain. 7.1 has a mechanical system. 7.2 has an electronic system with torque vectoring etc.
So is it vastly better? Normally a mechanically system can be more raw with more feel and more reliable, anyone got any feedback on this please?spareparts said:
You can really feel the 4wd 'working' on the 7.1. ie, it always feels 4wd even though it still shuffles drive between the main axles.
In comparison, PTM makes the car feel 2wd most of the time, and its intervention per wheel is far more subtle and seamless. When you push really hard, the effect of someone 'helping' you is obvious as you just wonder "whoa, I should be in the hedge but I'm not".
PTM with PTV (torque vectoring) has the combined effect of making the 7.2 feel slightly more mid-engined, although it is still has a strong rear-engined bias. For further comparison, the 991 takes this to another level and does not feel very 911-like, at least not in comparison to the 997. PTV is what gives the 7.2 a big increase in agility, by introducing a form of rear wheel steer. This is why it feels like the rear of the car is less anchored down and slightly more mid-engined.
Given the mid-range torque outputs of the Turbo, it really needs a form of 4wd to harness the torque/power and make seriously rapid progress, safely. Without 4wd, I think the outputs of the GT3 (not Turbo) are close to as much as is manageable on the road without requiring race-car levels of car control. It's for this reason that point-to-point on the public road, the Turbo remains one of the fastest cars - certainly quicker than a GT3. Consider that most of the uber powered supercars nowadays all have 4wd.
Good food for though, a decent 997.1 Turbo in manual, sub 50k miles can now be had for 40k and with 996 Turbo's firming up can't see the 997 getting much cheaper. Gen2 Turbo's seem to be around 50-55k so quite a bit more.In comparison, PTM makes the car feel 2wd most of the time, and its intervention per wheel is far more subtle and seamless. When you push really hard, the effect of someone 'helping' you is obvious as you just wonder "whoa, I should be in the hedge but I'm not".
PTM with PTV (torque vectoring) has the combined effect of making the 7.2 feel slightly more mid-engined, although it is still has a strong rear-engined bias. For further comparison, the 991 takes this to another level and does not feel very 911-like, at least not in comparison to the 997. PTV is what gives the 7.2 a big increase in agility, by introducing a form of rear wheel steer. This is why it feels like the rear of the car is less anchored down and slightly more mid-engined.
Given the mid-range torque outputs of the Turbo, it really needs a form of 4wd to harness the torque/power and make seriously rapid progress, safely. Without 4wd, I think the outputs of the GT3 (not Turbo) are close to as much as is manageable on the road without requiring race-car levels of car control. It's for this reason that point-to-point on the public road, the Turbo remains one of the fastest cars - certainly quicker than a GT3. Consider that most of the uber powered supercars nowadays all have 4wd.
Here is a question, power aside is the 997.2 a more capable handling car or are the newer technologies just making it easier to go faster in the 997.2 and as such two skilled drivers would be hard to separate.
Just for me I'd prefer the version which well had more feel to it, felt more rear engineered and was more of a challenge, the fact you say you can feel the 997.1 system working more is kind of an attraction to me. I was in a 997.2 Turbo on a wet Oulton Park and its ability was mind boggling but the driver did not have to try, it all just seemed, well very easy and a bit boring. Is the 997.1 version just as quick but more challenging to get the best from?
spareparts said:
Yes, the 7.2 is PDK. Tiptronic was obsolete. From 2009 (MY2010) onwards I believe.
Keep in mind that the 7.2 is, for all intents and purposes, the 991 engine+drivetrain except for software/gearing changes to PDK, and the the 7.2 has a shorter chassis with narrower front track. It is as big a jump from the 7.1 to the 7.2 as it is from the 7.2 to the 991.
Cool, well easy to widen front track I suspect. PDK software is probably updatable or can be mapped to be more aggressive like the newer variations.Keep in mind that the 7.2 is, for all intents and purposes, the 991 engine+drivetrain except for software/gearing changes to PDK, and the the 7.2 has a shorter chassis with narrower front track. It is as big a jump from the 7.1 to the 7.2 as it is from the 7.2 to the 991.
Something I will seriously consider, shall see what 2009/2010 gen2's are going for, might have to wait another year for them to get in my price range.
Bubbles
Was going to the meet, but its our companies yearly stock take.
Ah excellent, yet that car at Oulton was mind boggling good, though it did seem way to easy to go so fast. But in fairness I'd rather a les raw road car in favour of something hugely quick now I've got a silly fast E46 M3 designed for track use which is epic on a dry track but very harsh on road.
My C2S as you remember is very focused, if anything its like a 997.1 GTS, but was very costly to track and in such clean condition. Hence the E46 for track so the idea is to move the C2S on soon and change to something stupid quick for road, hence 997 Turbo or GTR plan.
Was going to the meet, but its our companies yearly stock take.
Ah excellent, yet that car at Oulton was mind boggling good, though it did seem way to easy to go so fast. But in fairness I'd rather a les raw road car in favour of something hugely quick now I've got a silly fast E46 M3 designed for track use which is epic on a dry track but very harsh on road.
My C2S as you remember is very focused, if anything its like a 997.1 GTS, but was very costly to track and in such clean condition. Hence the E46 for track so the idea is to move the C2S on soon and change to something stupid quick for road, hence 997 Turbo or GTR plan.
franki68 said:
you cant say this on a porsche forum,despite being correct.
Do have to say for me the attractions are:-997 Turbo - Porsche steering, lighter on its feet, no bigger than a normal car so can be hustled on narrow roads and well Porsche badge.
GTR - Its faster, modding friendly with warranty still available modified and well a much newer car and less money.
Right now it would be gen1 TT or GTR, I think GTR is the better buy at 40k budget area. Up that to 50k-60k and then the gen2 is more of a competitor and makes the choice harder, would probably go gen2 TT then.
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