Best place to start in search for 'classic' 911

[Lungauer]

I'm thinking of selling my GTS manual and getting an older (and probably slower and less reliable) 911. I am, however, hopelessly confused about the various models and what to look out for.

Could someone advise the best place to research the various options? I'm thinking pre 993, preferably without the big bumpers, with a budget of around £55k. Would like a Singer but unfortunately my funds won't run to one of those.

Thanks in advance.

[Lungauer]

drmark said:

Difficult if you want to avoid all big bumpers cars as you are looking at early seventies cars (and earlier) and the best ones are way more than your GTS is worth. I have had most - including a 2.2s, 3.2, 964 and 993 - and would plump for a 2wd 964. As close to the classic look as modern Porsches get. PAS and ABS useful. And less rust than 3.2 / SC. I bought a refurbished 3.2 last year and it was a mistake to go back - very disappointing. Sold it within a few months despite having 15K worth of work done.

Thanks all for the replies. drmark you obviously have experience in spades and I take your point about my budget not stretching to the earlier cars. Are you suggesting it might not be the best idea to go back to a 964? Is it better to take off the rose tinted specs and stick with the GTS, which to be fair is not exactly dull.

[Lungauer]

This whole replica thing adds to the confusion. Would I be right in thinking that if you take a 964 (the basis for a Singer car) and de-bumper it and generally make it look like something it isn't it will go down in value, despite the money spent on it? If so is it worth getting one that is already a replica, providing it done well and with the proper parts?

[Lungauer]

On the subject of recreations, any one care to venture an opinion based on the following description:

...an outstanding recreation of Porsche's 1973 Carrera 2.7 RS, based on a 3.0SC donor car that was first registered in 1983. The car was converted 18 months ago by 911 Rennsport, and has covered just 3000 miles since. The base car had just one owner until 2010, with one further owner prior to it being converted. The car then underwent a full strip-down, with genuine steel wings fitted front and rear, as well as the correct lightweight 'long' bonnet, ducktail and RS bumpers. Mechanically, the car has been fully checked over, whilst the engine and gearbox were rebuilt shortly before conversion. Within the conversion, SS1 stainless-steel heat exchangers and a twin-pipe stainless exhaust were fitted. It also has factory Bilstein suspension on fast road settings. The interior has also been backdated retaining the black leather rear seats, with new period RS front seats and a Momo Prototipo steering wheel, whilst lightweight door panels have also been included. The electric windows and sunroof have been retained for comfort with the surrounds polished as they were on the original RS’s, whilst the door handles have been re-chromed. The exterior has been finished to a high standard in the original 1973 Porsche Blood Orange with contrasting black decals, with the correct Fuchs 7×16 wheels on the front and 9×16 rear wheels delivering the power. Other detail work has been carried out to ensure period correctness, including an age related '2.7L' plate that comes with the car. Featured in Total 911 magazine... also probably a fair bit quicker than the real thing... drives beautifully.

[Lungauer]

Still flip-flopping between keeping the GTS or going old school. Have seen an unmolested 3.2 Carrera for sale with G.50 gearbox. As someone with dangerously little knowledge is this a reasonable car to discover air cooled Porsches with?

[Lungauer]

This is all most helpful, thanks.

This 1987 Carrera 3.2 I've found has had two owners, the last for 25 years and the first a lady. It is completely original as it left the factory and has all keys, docs etc. Apparently it is un-marked, never damaged, smoked in or tracked. However it has done 189k miles which seems a daunting amount, though it did have an engine top end re-build 12,000 miles ago. The original clutch lasted 162k miles. The owner is asking £30k. Would be grateful for an opinion from you guys who know about these things...

[Lungauer]

Du1point8 said:

I like this one:

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C516441

Dont know if a replica is in your thoughts though.

I saw that one and spoke to the owner. Sounds a really nice car, but the replica thing put me off rather.

Thanks for your honest replies. Shows how dangerous little knowledge is - and the value of PH! Think I'd better do a bit more research. OR stick with the GTS. Never was any good at decisions.

[Lungauer]

olly22n said:

If you ever find yourself in south lincs - you are more than welcome to have a blast in my 3.2 (assuming you haven't driven an old 911 - if you have then no worries!)

That's a very kind offer, olly22n. No. Never driven an old 911 and an opportunity to do so would undoubtedly help immensely.

[Lungauer]

Then I would be more than happy to oblige.

[Lungauer]

Went to see this yesterday as it was local to me. 1976 2.7 Lux. 169k miles, engine rebuild about 12k miles ago, re-sprayed in 1994. Asking £24k. Any thoughts?

[Lungauer]

edo said:

Sorry I dont think that is good value at all esp if you compare to the green one I posted.

Unfortunately both the green and red cars at Gmund had sold when I rang them last week after your post. Pity as they looked rather nice, especially the green one.

[Lungauer]

SEE YA said:

Do you not fancy a Turbo then?

Edited by SEE YA on Monday 21st July 07:52

To be honest I've always steered clear of turbos, other than the daily diesel. Not sure why, suppose it's that 'normally aspirated' thing, but I am beginning to come round to the idea. Probably too late now!

[Lungauer]

Geneve said:

Any aircooled Porsche is only as good as its underlying condition – and I don’t mean the high gloss paintwork and tidy interior.

IMO very few are in optimum mechanical health – tired engines, well down on their original bhp, worn suspensions, loose steering, poor geo set up, vague gearboxes, electrical gremlins, old tyres, iffy brakes, dull lighting, noisy wipers, irritating rattles and wind squeal...... and oblivious owners - all compromise the experience.

Don’t get me wrong, I Iove the aircooled models, but it takes a bit of effort (or expense) to get the nicest examples that fully reflect the true joy of driving - otherwise the novelty will soon wear thin. And, I'd be cautious about the '70s era.

This is why I've steered clear up to now, and I must say the trip to and from viewing the 1976 2.7 was a joy in the GTS. The old car had that vaguely mildew smell (reminded me of my brother's Rover P5B he had years ago) and that's not really what I'm buying in to. I want a lightness of touch and delicacy that I feel may be missing from the modern 911, but not the inconvenience of an old banger. I suppose that's why people are prepared to pay top dollar for a Singer.

[Lungauer]

IMI A said:

Yes not for everyone but if I had to pick one car for the rest of my days (even as a dd) I would pick an air-cooled car (my 3.2C would fit the bill for me but any of them i.e. 993 or 964 would). Any 997 feels over light in the steering and manual gearbox afterwards. I once had a friends 72 RS for a few hours and on my way back in my 997 it felt like I could be driving any eurobox saloon. I find the ride in PASM equipped 997s too soft too. In the OPs shoes for his budget he'd get an amazing air cooled car. If he waits a few years they may be out of reach as good cars are becoming harder to source whether you're looking for a SC, 3.2C, 964 or 993. Took me 3 years to find a car I was happy with and its by no means what I would call perfect but the fact its never been restored and is completely rust free was an attraction for me. There's a gorgeous blue 3.2C just come up for sale at JZM. In the OP's shoes subject to him enjoying the way an earlier car drives I'd try and find a way to buy that and also keep the 997. Honestly do not understand how JZM's cognac 3.2C with 70k miles sold for £30k not long ago and now this blue car is a touch below £40k. Has the market really moved that far in month? Prices just seem all over the place even from the same vendors in some cases. A pre 89 Turbo is a good shout too but very difficult to drive quickly unless you can peddle. A good compromise in my view if it has to be one car and fits the classic appreciating criteria although not water-cooled is a 996 GT3. Again with the OP's budget he'd get one of the best GT3s out there.

This is very interesting, and backs up what I sort of imagined to be the truth (subject to me driving an old air cooled car). Mind you if there is something of the eurobox about the 997 where does that leave the 991?

I've spoken to JZM and we'll see what happens, but in the meantime, and while I thought I didn't want anything but a N/A manual coupe, I was rather taken by this at Gmund:

http://www.gmundcars.com/cars/921/91132supersportc...

[Lungauer]

Johnny G Pipe said:

964 is always the answer me old china. Not old (and mildewy LOL) with gawky long gear stick and feeble HVAC like an IB, and not an anaesthetised modern that you have to drive like an arse to really enjoy, not a bit too special to schlep about in like a GT3, and still going up in value if you buy right (rust and leaks fixed properly, suspension done, don't rule out C4). Job done.

964 Targas also good value now and look nice on that platform, open air motoring with out the pram-look aesthetic trauma.

Edited by Johnny G Pipe on Wednesday 23 July 10:06

I do think I've whittled things down to 3.2C or 964, though speaking of Targas saw a nice Supersport targa in grey which looked nice.

Went to see the 3.2 at JZM and it was a nice, sweet car. Had some car park type dings in the doors when you looked closely. Has been re-painted at some stage (glass out by the look of things under the seals), though not rubbed down properly giving a rather rippled effect. Interior very good for 70k miles and sounded sweet on start up. Didn't have time for test drive and in any case still mulling it over. I think £39k is top dollar and it is the only one I've looked at. Moreover it's quite a decision to jump out of my efficient and fast GTS and get into something 25 years old.

[Lungauer]

Forgot to add - leakdown test of the 3.2 was in mid teens. Apparently 25 or above the engine needs re-building. Good but not great?

[Lungauer]

Well decision made, rightly or wrongly. The GTS is going, which I hope I won't regret too much, and a 67k mile Guards Red 964 is on its way.

I hope this will be the start of an interesting project. I've been recommended to Rennlist, and the PCGB forum has been very helpful. I will be looking for suspension, engine and exhaust upgrades, and possibly in the fullness of time a light weight interior. Any suggestions on this front gratefully received.

[Lungauer]

lboase said:

Congrats! I assume it's the Lawton Brook car? Looks fantastic in the pics.

Would benefit from a suspension refresh with lower ride height. I'd be tempted to stick with the D90s and flags. Also G pipe and de-cat an easy win - sounds brilliant.

You'll enjoy it whatever you do, looks a great car.

It is the Lawton Brook car, currently having some minor things done at RPM. I won't stray too much from original, but looking forward to a certain amount of tinkering. Not something that can be really done on the GTS.

I've spoken to RPM who have vouched for the car, but should I have another independent PPI done by someone else since they are doing the work for LB? As far as I know RPM are not connected to Lawton Brook. Also where can I get the chassis and engine numbers verified? It was supplied new by OPC Leeds (or whatever they were called in 1990) - could they help?

[Lungauer]

uktrailmonster said:

I do hope you gave it a good test drive! I really couldn't imagine giving up my 997 for a 964 and certainly not a GTS. As much as I like the 964 I'd miss the modern chassis and performance too much. Be interesting to see how you get on and hope it works out as expected. The good thing is that you will always get your money back on the 964 down the line.

Never driven a 964. Not even seen the car!

[Lungauer]

mollytherocker said:

A brave man, or very foolish?

Good question. Some of the best vehicles I've owned I had not driven before purchasing. But if the car passes it's PPI and I'm happy with it when I see it I can't imagine the driving experience can be too off-putting. I've owned some pretty agricultural vehicles before (3 Caterhams, 3 Defenders), surely this will be luxury by comparison. OK the 997 is much more civilised and easy to live with, but does therein lie the problem? Edited to add; weekend car only, as was the GTS. Wife won't let me have the two, what with the motorbikes, even though I told her that a GTS and a 964 was the perfect combination.

Edited by Lungauer on Friday 1st August 09:51