This is starting to make a bit of sense
Discussion
In terms of track driving, I think that values of GT and RS cars are disporportionate to their track performance/risk/viability. Track mods are frowned upon by beardy/collector man, devaluing cars that should be held in higher regard (in my opinion). A 997RS is currently valued at a 3 x multiplier of a 997 cup. I remeber when my 997 cup had a far higher value that a 996RS or 997Gen1 RS. That kind of made sense to me. In terms of performance there is no comparison between a 997 cup and a 991RS. Yet the Cuppie is valued at 5 x less the car. Hollinger sequentials are far more economical to run these days as early 997 cups are no longer racing in Carrera cup where Porsche internals were - understandibly - required to compete. Hollinger internals are no different, they just dont have 'Porsche' stamped on them.
If I bend the Cuppie, no one will be bothered as long as the chasis is straight and the engine and box have low hours. If i bend my 997 Clubbie the market will take quite a different view. That's my logic in buying this little car to use on the track instead. Much as I was tempted to modify my 997 gen 1 clubsport, this made a lot more sense to me.
I wonder how many more GT car owners will be tempted to take this route. The road car market will have to fall a very long way to change my view.
88racing said:
Certainly a bargain to buy a Cup but the rebuild costs are frightening - put me off getting one for last season. And you bend it then try to get a new shell.
Different beasts to race than to track day. The last few percent takes a lot more out of them. To be honest the engines hang together for a very long time. Porsche now reccomnend leak down tests at 75 hours (was 50) but I raced one very successfully with a lot more hours than that on it. Even if they are down on compression they still run ok, just a little down on power. You will have to go some to bend a chassis in one. It's the box that always worried me - nightmare stories of rebuild costs. I'm told that they are now a lot more affordable. We shall see. There are downsides to running cup cars. I think that 996's make a little more sense than a 997 because of the box. Racing cars have a very tough life and condition varies a lot more than toad cars. The lifed component factor is far less of an issue in a track day scenario. The big risks are potential problems arising from previous poor maintenance. In terms of costs, tyres are the biggest consumable. We would get 40mins from a set of Mich's in Carrera cup but that was more about being competitive. I have done a few track days for sponsors before and got through on a used set just fine.
It will be interesting to see how viable running the Cuppie is. I'll post up an honest appraisal throughout the year as a guide to others considering doing the same thing.
What I can tell you is that the performance and visceral experience of driving 996/7 cup is on a completely different level to road going GT cars - which in themselves very quick. That can cause a worry to inexperienced drivers on the same day.
It will be interesting to see how viable running the Cuppie is. I'll post up an honest appraisal throughout the year as a guide to others considering doing the same thing.
What I can tell you is that the performance and visceral experience of driving 996/7 cup is on a completely different level to road going GT cars - which in themselves very quick. That can cause a worry to inexperienced drivers on the same day.
slodge said:
Hi Steve
Are you going to fit a paddle shift system? I hear good things in terms of extending box life and general protection of expensive stuff!
Cheers
Slodge
I'm also told that the paddle upgrade is good for gearbox life. I do enjoy working the sequential, especially the heal toe but if paddles prolong gearbox life it will be worth a look Are you going to fit a paddle shift system? I hear good things in terms of extending box life and general protection of expensive stuff!
Cheers
Slodge
Yep, in some cases it was even more. The hollinger gear sets are considerably cheaper than the Carrera cup sets. I am told that rebuild costs are less than half what they were but the proof of the pudding and all that..
You can flat shift with an H pattern box. Some supercup drivers did it in the 996 super cup - but it eats the box
You can flat shift with an H pattern box. Some supercup drivers did it in the 996 super cup - but it eats the box
Porsche911R said:
just track days then you have have to think about one of these.
Very fast little car and I think under rated. running costs will be lower. Not sure on values. My requirement is primarily corporate and I think that the cup will be more of an 'event' to passengers. Also, I have a better understanding of its value and I know the car well. The running costs will be higher. It all comes down to that gear box. If I'm right then it's a no brainer. If I'm wrong then it may be a mistake
Picking the car up sometime next week. The first thing I will do is drop the rev limiter by 200 rpm. This should take a lot of load off of the engine. Then I'll run it for a day and see how the box feels. I think that you can mitigate against a lot of mechanical wear for track day only use. Tyres will be more of an issue. Currently not sure whether to stick with the Miche's or go with the harder Dunlops. The Pirellli are also an option. This is the biggest trade off because tyres are the largest single factor in outright grip but the car costs a fair bit to run whether you are wearing fresh or old rubber so one has to weigh up the fun/performance/economy formula ,and it's not as simple as it seems,,The Mich and Dunlop geo set ups are also very different and the driving style required is different for each so I do need to kind of make up my tiny mind and stick to it.
An update for chaps looking to take this route.
Tyres are becoming a little issue as Dunlop no longer make a rear that fits an early 997 cup. Michelin still make the tyre but it is no longer main stream as the current Carrera cup car runs wider rubber so stocks may be an issue. I am shaking the car down at Silverstone on Tuesday so Pirelli are my only current option which is a tyre that I have no experience of.
Mechanically the car appears good. Only 20 odd hours on the engine since a Parr rebuilt. Haven't run up the gearbox so can't comment. The car has not been run for a while so the brakes will need bedding in. Have removed the auto blipper and returned the gear selector to standard.
Will run the car initially in old rubber, do some gentle laps and get a feel for the set up and get the cobwebs out of the brakes. Then we will fit the Pirelllis at the end of the day and push on a bit to check the chassis balance and get the brake balance sorted out.
if anybody is booked in, I'd appreciate some feedback on sharing track space with car. I am mindful of the closing speeds and keen to try and not spoil other drivers enjoyment of their day.
Will report back after Tuesday.
Tyres are becoming a little issue as Dunlop no longer make a rear that fits an early 997 cup. Michelin still make the tyre but it is no longer main stream as the current Carrera cup car runs wider rubber so stocks may be an issue. I am shaking the car down at Silverstone on Tuesday so Pirelli are my only current option which is a tyre that I have no experience of.
Mechanically the car appears good. Only 20 odd hours on the engine since a Parr rebuilt. Haven't run up the gearbox so can't comment. The car has not been run for a while so the brakes will need bedding in. Have removed the auto blipper and returned the gear selector to standard.
Will run the car initially in old rubber, do some gentle laps and get a feel for the set up and get the cobwebs out of the brakes. Then we will fit the Pirelllis at the end of the day and push on a bit to check the chassis balance and get the brake balance sorted out.
if anybody is booked in, I'd appreciate some feedback on sharing track space with car. I am mindful of the closing speeds and keen to try and not spoil other drivers enjoyment of their day.
Will report back after Tuesday.
For you guys looking or looking to run early 997 Cups. Pirelli tyre combo's are.
If you are an experienced 997 Cup driver/racer
Front DH 245-645-18
Rear DH 305-680-18
If you are not experienced
Front MH 245-645-18
Rear DH 305-680-18
The DH is a hard compond tyre that will need working more to counter understeer. The MH is a medium compound tyre that will help turn in if the driver is not confident on a heavy trail. Experienced drivers will probably get a graining issue or a little oversteer when using the medium fronts.
Aparently the pirelli does not suffer from wear like say the Michellin does but suffers from multi heat cycles.
Due to restricted time to organise myself, I shall be running MH fronts when i fit fresh tyres in the afternoon - Shall report back
If you are an experienced 997 Cup driver/racer
Front DH 245-645-18
Rear DH 305-680-18
If you are not experienced
Front MH 245-645-18
Rear DH 305-680-18
The DH is a hard compond tyre that will need working more to counter understeer. The MH is a medium compound tyre that will help turn in if the driver is not confident on a heavy trail. Experienced drivers will probably get a graining issue or a little oversteer when using the medium fronts.
Aparently the pirelli does not suffer from wear like say the Michellin does but suffers from multi heat cycles.
Due to restricted time to organise myself, I shall be running MH fronts when i fit fresh tyres in the afternoon - Shall report back
A quick update. Took the car to Silverstone yesterday and had a good days running. Some info for you guys considering to run a cup car at track days;. the start procedure is pretty straight forward - so no lap top etc required.Warm up procedure straightforward. An air bottle would be ideal but a jack under the rear of the car so that the rear wheels can be freed up to warm the box would work fine. So, just start the car up and select the motec warm up page. Lift the car on its air jacks or the rear with a jack and gently run the gearbox in first ger for a while to warm everything up. Run the box through its gears gently and when warm select the race page on the motec screen and you are ready to run.
The big revelation to me was that tyres that I'd never consider running in competition were actually better than fresh rubber. I ran some VERY old michellins for most of the day and the car felt quite nice because I wasn't pushing that extra tenth which meant that it wasn't too loose and closing speeds were I think manageable for everyone. When I fitted the pirellis for scrubbing, the car gained 2 or 3 seconds of pace and I felt that was then probably too fast for an open track day. Very high closing speeds. This mean that the big radicals and Ferrari challenge cars that I have been circulating with all day became relatively easy to pass and to me that is too quick to an open track day.
So, the good news is that a decent supply of second hand tyres should keep things safer for everybody and make running the car a whole lot cheaper. A few things to check before the next day - brake bias not working correctly and I want the auto blip removed, burned, crushed, fragmatised and buried at least 20 feet underground. It just gets in the way like an unwanted sibling on a big date.
The big revelation to me was that tyres that I'd never consider running in competition were actually better than fresh rubber. I ran some VERY old michellins for most of the day and the car felt quite nice because I wasn't pushing that extra tenth which meant that it wasn't too loose and closing speeds were I think manageable for everyone. When I fitted the pirellis for scrubbing, the car gained 2 or 3 seconds of pace and I felt that was then probably too fast for an open track day. Very high closing speeds. This mean that the big radicals and Ferrari challenge cars that I have been circulating with all day became relatively easy to pass and to me that is too quick to an open track day.
So, the good news is that a decent supply of second hand tyres should keep things safer for everybody and make running the car a whole lot cheaper. A few things to check before the next day - brake bias not working correctly and I want the auto blip removed, burned, crushed, fragmatised and buried at least 20 feet underground. It just gets in the way like an unwanted sibling on a big date.
Go and buy another one before they get to silly money. I heard of a 996 cup owner who has just been offered £100k for his car. The 996's are definitely on the rise. The 997 is a stupid performance bargain right now. In terms of pace and fun, nothing matches it for value - radicals yes, but there is no substitute for driving a big, fast GT car - especially if it's a 911
I get that. You do need to be pretty experinced to get in one and drive it properly. Also be prepared to deal with traffic - you will rarely get a claer lap and the closing speeds are massive. There were some Exige cups at Silverstone and the 997 was a lot quicker.
The costa of running a Cup for track day or race are hugely different. It's the same car that I raced in Carrea cup - but i dont need 4 sets of tyres for the day, race team, and everything replced or rebuilt on the can when it gets to lifing. You can short shift at a track day and save engine life and nurse the box etc. Loadsings on all components are so much lower. Running with second hand tyres make it cheaper than running a normal road going GT3. Same car, almost the same pace but at a small fraction of the cost to run.
The race thing for me is not that much fun anymore, i've won all i need to win so there's only one way to go - and that's down!. Still enjoy driving purely for fun so for me it works. My cup car is worth less than my 964C2. I know which one i'd rather risk and drive on a race track. You make a good point on the race thing though, if anyone is looking at buying a cup car for a track day, you must bear in mind the cost difference between running at a track day and running at a race meeting
The costa of running a Cup for track day or race are hugely different. It's the same car that I raced in Carrea cup - but i dont need 4 sets of tyres for the day, race team, and everything replced or rebuilt on the can when it gets to lifing. You can short shift at a track day and save engine life and nurse the box etc. Loadsings on all components are so much lower. Running with second hand tyres make it cheaper than running a normal road going GT3. Same car, almost the same pace but at a small fraction of the cost to run.
The race thing for me is not that much fun anymore, i've won all i need to win so there's only one way to go - and that's down!. Still enjoy driving purely for fun so for me it works. My cup car is worth less than my 964C2. I know which one i'd rather risk and drive on a race track. You make a good point on the race thing though, if anyone is looking at buying a cup car for a track day, you must bear in mind the cost difference between running at a track day and running at a race meeting
Edited by Steve Rance on Wednesday 20th April 10:34
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