New 991 R review
Discussion
ags11 said:
Thread derail I know, but even a Cayman Clubsport with the 991 3.4, minus the sound deadening etc- I'd choose that over my GT4!
Buy a Cayman R and take the carpet out then !!!My R has my GT4 licked for feel and driver enjoyment, if that's what you want sell the GT4 buy an R and take the carpet out ! plus put £45k in your pocket.
less seems good imo I love my Cayman R, and on my 2nd it's the best car I have owned.
The GT4 is better in every way bar enjoyment ;-) but people want, faster and better, and as you say the cars on rails at 120mph, the enjoyment has vanished.
Would be interesting to see if one could get real "enjoyment" from the 991 R with 500bhp, I am not sure you could in full, and how ever good the eps is, it cannot match the last of the hydraulic set ups and imo no 911 can match the extra weight the Cayman platform gives on steering feel either, what ever these reviews say.
maybe we should all be in BBR Mx5's ! or maybe the Cayman R is the last great flat 6 Porker to be made, with a passive setup.
the guy who bought Bob's modded Cayman R is having the most fun I bet !
The GT4 is better in every way bar enjoyment ;-) but people want, faster and better, and as you say the cars on rails at 120mph, the enjoyment has vanished.
Would be interesting to see if one could get real "enjoyment" from the 991 R with 500bhp, I am not sure you could in full, and how ever good the eps is, it cannot match the last of the hydraulic set ups and imo no 911 can match the extra weight the Cayman platform gives on steering feel either, what ever these reviews say.
maybe we should all be in BBR Mx5's ! or maybe the Cayman R is the last great flat 6 Porker to be made, with a passive setup.
the guy who bought Bob's modded Cayman R is having the most fun I bet !
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The line is different for every one I guess.I like a planted car with nice feel and feedback, not really sure I like the "playfull" which means tail out action 100% of the time, I am used to Lotus and Nobles and mid engine cars which don't really go hand in hand with tail out fun.
I had a few BMW's, CSL and M3 compition car and they drift like a king, but that's not what I am after on a personal level, good for a laugh a few times, that's about it for me.
I quite like the planted feel but with max feedback in a small package, hence we are all after different things, come winter the R is "playful" once the heat drops a bit and you work the wheel a lot more, but I use my cars every day and in the dry that would get very tiresome having to op lock every bend.
My latest R has basic Goodyear tyres over the Pilot Super sports I always fit and the cars does move about as it stands.
PSM off and colder weather you get plenty of wheel work, in the summer I love the grip, but want still want that jiggle, The GT4 in the summer has no jiggle that car IS ALL grip.
I think the Cayman R does hit a sweetspot and offers quite a lot of drivers car for £45k and a car you can use 100% of the time all year round.
ags11 said:
Yeah, the 500bhp means nothing to me.
It's the ethos of a back to basics mechanical thing in a "new" package is compelling.
I am not sure PASM, PTV, EPS and rear wheel steer is that much a back to basics package, it's a LOT of hype because it has a gear shift it seems.It's the ethos of a back to basics mechanical thing in a "new" package is compelling.
Don't get me wrong I would love a 991R as most would , it's as hardcore as one can buy today I guess, it looks from the outside a great package for a new car with a NA engine and a gear lever ! both a rare thing in a £130k car.
Would it offer that "back to basic feel" I don't thing it would.
again take the Carpet out a GT4, add a lwfw and tune the lazy 3.8 to 420BHp and you are about there in a "new" car and if you paid list for the GT4 that's one cheap package imo with a few well picked mods.
GT4 is a great platform to tweak. but it would still be too fast for the road.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
it's a fine line again and not a contradiction, Yes I do like grip but the GT4 has no "jiggle" and "less feel", as I said until much much higher speeds, 120mph in the GT4 feels like 85MPh in the R. Hence why the GT4 IS ON RAILS AT 85mph.So yes too much Grip is bad for the GT4 for me, the R even though it's planted has the jiggle and feel at 35% less speeds.
would I like a Cayman R more on 17" , no idea, I am also not in the balloon tyre feel camp and like how a low profile tyre reacts with steering input. ie faster. I feel like the R does what I ask, the 987 Spyder more so with monoballs and a solid engine mount, 17" would take that part away.
I would say a 65 profile tyre is like a rubber bush ! and has the give and reacts less, the Spyder feels very like a massive go kart.
prob better in the wet for feel, but in the dry not so much.
remember I get to drive all these cars back to back any day I please , they are very fine lines, maybe my words cannot get that over well enough.
Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 27th September 13:24
Slippydiff said:
We agree on something, you're not going to really enjoy properly wringing the neck of 991 R on the road in the UK, barring some choice roads in Scotland and N.Wales. As for the R being hardcore, you clearly have a very different threshold than most for what construes hardcore.
As for your comments about steering feel and weight, you've fallen into the age old trap of mistaking weight for feel. But you've also committed the cardinal sin of berating 911 steering feel.
It's impossible to establish from your post whether you're referring to the steering weight/feel of 991's, or whether you're suggesting there's never been a 911 built which had steering as feelsome and weighty as that of the Cayman R. If it's the latter, you're a bigger idiot than most give you credit for.
Just my opinion, that does not make me an idiot ;-)As for your comments about steering feel and weight, you've fallen into the age old trap of mistaking weight for feel. But you've also committed the cardinal sin of berating 911 steering feel.
It's impossible to establish from your post whether you're referring to the steering weight/feel of 991's, or whether you're suggesting there's never been a 911 built which had steering as feelsome and weighty as that of the Cayman R. If it's the latter, you're a bigger idiot than most give you credit for.
yes the GT3 996/997 has feel but it also has less weight over the front than the Cayman R and that added weight gives you more feel imo, esp in the wet.
I think people fall in the age old trap of the GT3 having a very stiff ARB and that make's the steering wheel move a lot in their hands and they call that feel.
It may feel exciting/alive having the wheel moving about a lot but that's not real feel that's just net result from a stiff ARB and when 1 wheel hits a rut the ARB transfers that energy to the other wheel and you get a lot of steering wheel movement. People seem to call that feel !!! or feedback ! when really it's just a mess, and the faster you go the worse it gets on bumpy roads, again that fighting with the wheel people seem to call feedback !!! but it's false !
The mid engine platform with the extra weight over the nose gives you more REAL feel, so yes weight is more but the net result of added weight like that is more feel as the 2 systems both 997 and 987 cars use are on the same !!!
My R wheel moves about with a much softer ARB than the GT3 so I know more what my wheels are doing independent of each other to a better degree than a GT3.
The Cayman R imo wins over the 997 GT3 in the steering dept but that's just imo.
And as for any later cars when these mag reviews of the GT4 , GTS and now the 911R state steeing is great is shocking , esp Harris, on the one hand he said the 911R had perfect steering, but In the same vid he stated the Aston have better steering feel !!! All new EPS systems still feel poor to me I doubt the 991 R has move the game on much over the GT4 in that dept. Again the wet shows this up more, as in the dry these systems are now passable.
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 28th September 10:21
As I said the EPS is quite good now, you have to go on wet roads to then feel the short comings as in the dry it does what it needs to do and you get used to it. only when you get back in the older cars you think, mm this is how it should be.
It's come a nice way on from the early 981 boxsters.
You do loose that alive feeling which I slated on the GT3 though as the wheel does not move at all over bumps, again as I said it's a fine line.
I think my Noble 3r has had the best steering even over the Lotus cars.
It's come a nice way on from the early 981 boxsters.
You do loose that alive feeling which I slated on the GT3 though as the wheel does not move at all over bumps, again as I said it's a fine line.
I think my Noble 3r has had the best steering even over the Lotus cars.
RaysCayman said:
You're debating with a fellow who believes ARB settings control bump steer, so I wouldn't waste your time.
I knew this would come up lolI said, if you want to remember ! that while it's NOT bump steer the ARB on full stiff gives off that same type of feel as having bump steer, ie. you hit a bump and it moved the steering wheel !!! get over it ;-) I did not know what to call it when I tried to explain it 4 years ago ! and used the word "bump steer" to try and put across what the feeling was, atm people are calling this wheel movement "noise" again not a correct term but it has no real name I know of ! people seem to call this feel !!! which it's not !
I ran the GT3 fully stiff for a few months and it was shocking bad, I did move it to full soft for the last 6 months, but hitting a rut with one wheel still caused too much wheel movement as the 2 front wheels are connected to a too Stiff front ARB for bumpy roads !!!
As for feel the R has more than the GT3 imo with like for like geo's, it has nothing to do with understeer and what I like/dislike about how a car drives.
It's well known the mk2 GT3 and even the gen 1 997 GT3 are camber hunters which just don't suit B road blasting. and Hence Slippy liked the softer mk1 GT3 set up, and even states the mk2 is too hard !!!
And now it seems 997GT3 owners 10 years on are finally getting round to fitting nice passive shocks lol you cannot make this s
t up I tell you. but hay GT3 love is key on PH.So if you read between the lines Slippy is just backing up what I said in his own words, and people are now fitting passive nicers riding shocks to 997 's :-)
Edited by Porsche911R on Friday 30th September 14:11
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