Finally: Some facts on the GT-R's Ring time

[Dr S]

Here a couple of interesting observations from Nissan's GT-R record drive, that come from a highly reliable source without any connections to/interest in Porsche.

Nissan had a couple of GT-R's at the Ring that day. The car that did the record run featured:

• stripped out interior
• missing pre-cat
• use of 110 octane race fuel

These were the changes/alterations that my friend could observe. They indicate that weight was below and power well above a standard car. Given these "improvements" it appears likely that the car also featured non-standard rubber - but this last comment is only an assumption.

Porsche had Walter Rohrl checking out the GT-R and his best time was 07:45. Yesterday another former Rallye champion (who holds the fastest lap on the Ring in the wet - so no rookie either) managed to get near 07:50 in not fully ideal conditions using a stock customer car from overseas.

Given these data points the 07:29 posted by Nissan were not set by a standard car. End of story.

Given that Walter R managed a truly excellent 07:45 I wonder why Nissan bothered to cheat at all. It's a fantastic time well into 997TT/GT3RS territory for a fraction of the price that should really get the guys at Porsche (and potential customers) thinking. IMHO the car also has a dramatic presence in the metal and sounds great.

The 07:29 from a standard GT-R, however, only people could believe who like to ignore some basic laws of physics and/or are happy to find a reason to look down on people who can afford more expensive cars than themselves.

[Dr S]

supermono said:

Seems simple enough to me. Nissan are claiming these are legitimate figures and have offered training to other company's drivers who can't obtain the necessary performance from their car to equal those lap times.

Just get Rohl to take Nissan up on their kind offer and they'll simply show how they get the car round in that time.

SM

Given that Rohrl and the driver who tested the GT-R yesterday are both professional and successful racers who know every inch of the Ring combined with the fact that the GT-R is rather easy to drive, I wonder what Nissan could teach them...

[Dr S]

As I know the person I got the information from and you don't I understand why some of you are sceptical. Too much bullsh*t spread on websites, I guess. But I do not have any reason not to trust him.

It remains a fact (to me) that a successful professional race driver who knows the Ring inside out (and has the fastest lap in the wet - just to reiterate that he is no rookie) could not get a customer spec car below 07:50 yesterday. I have been there, seen the car, the driver and the data logs. And boy, he tried everything to set a time as low as possible.

If Walter R is so much slower than the Nissan driver, then the latter would be able to drive a 997GT2 also 15 seconds faster around the Ring than him. This would give a 07:15 time which I doubt would be realistic...

I see that there are still plenty of people who love to believe the Nissan claims. Nobody hinders you to do so. I'm just surprised that you don't get second thoughts when a 1.8 tonne car with 480hp that carries many compromises to work on the road as well laps the Ring virtually at the same speed as an MC12, a car designed for the track with substantially lower weight and much higher power. I guess it is the same people who still believe in Santa Claus...

[Dr S]

flemke said:

Pugsey said:

Sabine faster than Walter?!? She shared a drive in my mates car at the 'Ring a while back. Seemed quite wound up, was slower than said mate and other two drivers - all good but keen club drivers only - and then stacked it on the first lap! Guess, as with everything, it depends who you talk to............

Sabine isn't the fastest out there, but she is quite good, especially in the wet.
I'm not sure how well your "keen club drivers" know the circuit, but Sabine is probably within 8, maybe 10, seconds of the absolute fastest times in equivalent equipment, and there are not more than a handful of people in Britain who are that quick.
Perhaps the day in question was atypical?
The fastest guys out there, such as Menzel, Alzen, Basseng and Lieb, are really effing quick.

2nded.

On the original topic: It amuses me to see how desperate some people are to believe the Nissan times (despite better knowledge) and put very different standards on "facts" for the pro and con side of the claimed times.

The only thing we have as "fact" for Nissan's claims is a video that shows that a car has been able to get around the ring in 07:29 (which quite a number have done already) but not what type of car it was. I would like to see the evidence in that video that it was a standard car. Could you folks please point that out to me? Thanks.

I still think that the GT-R is a fantastic machine, a great achievement and a highly desirable car - especially for the money we're talking. It just annoys me when a manufacturer thinks he can bullsh*t me.

Anyway, it's close to impossible to make people doubt something they want so much to believe.

[Dr S]

noumenon said:

Has "Wolf!" driven pork round there to match Walter's times? Kind of meaningless if he hasn't.

Wolfgang has tested for ruf for several years. But I'm sure soon someone will be around claiming that they are no real porsches.

AdamT: you were spot on, WW's the man.an excellent driver and a great chap.

[Dr S]

Pugsey said:

Dr S said:

flemke said:

Pugsey said:

Sabine faster than Walter?!? She shared a drive in my mates car at the 'Ring a while back. Seemed quite wound up, was slower than said mate and other two drivers - all good but keen club drivers only - and then stacked it on the first lap! Guess, as with everything, it depends who you talk to............

Sabine isn't the fastest out there, but she is quite good, especially in the wet.
I'm not sure how well your "keen club drivers" know the circuit, but Sabine is probably within 8, maybe 10, seconds of the absolute fastest times in equivalent equipment, and there are not more than a handful of people in Britain who are that quick.
Perhaps the day in question was atypical?
The fastest guys out there, such as Menzel, Alzen, Basseng and Lieb, are really effing quick.

2nded.

On the original topic: It amuses me to see how desperate some people are to believe the Nissan times (despite better knowledge) and put very different standards on "facts" for the pro and con side of the claimed times.

The only thing we have as "fact" for Nissan's claims is a video that shows that a car has been able to get around the ring in 07:29 (which quite a number have done already) but not what type of car it was. I would like to see the evidence in that video that it was a standard car. Could you folks please point that out to me? Thanks.

I still think that the GT-R is a fantastic machine, a great achievement and a highly desirable car - especially for the money we're talking. It just annoys me when a manufacturer thinks he can bullsh*t me.

Anyway, it's close to impossible to make people doubt something they want so much to believe.

DR S.
Not sure why you attached that mini rant to my quote. I was merely commenting on another posters comment re Sabine/Wallter. I haven't expressed any views re the great (but pointless) 'Nissan lap times' debate. I don't possess any 'brand loyalty' frankly.

Flemke.
They've all either won or finished at the front of their class at the 'Ring and spend a fair bit of time there so not bad I guess. My comment was really in response to someone who stated (via third party info) that Sabine was faster than Herr R round the 'Ring and was made to demonstrate that these 'facts' really depend on 'who you speak to'. Having spent time in car with Sabine and been round the 'Ring once with Walter I have no idea frankly who would be faster given identical cars and don't really care. I suspect that there's a local out there who for years has taken out his ratty Mk1 Golf every week come rain or shine but never bothers to race who might blow EVERYONE into the weeds given the equipment. We'll never know.

Edited by Pugsey on Wednesday 5th November 09:19

Sorry for attaching my rant to my comment to your post. They are not related. That was just laziness whilst using ph from my blackberry

[Dr S]

Streetrod said:

PHOENIXUK said:

Hopefully this puts that argument to bed

I really doubt that.

True, I just wanted to put the whole P to W issue in context as people keep digging it up without looking at the facts. P to W is only a part of what makes a car fast of not, it is not the be all and end all as some people seem to think.

Edited by Streetrod on Wednesday 5th November 10:37

Of course, I simplified the discussion. Power to weight is only one parameter. But I'd struggle to see where a GT-R on standard tyres outperforms an MC12 that is designed purely for the track in terms of chassis (beyond 4WD), aerodynamics etc.

[Dr S]

gp900bj said:

On top of this you expect us to believe that Nissan allowed some random dude with no affiliation to Nissan, no contractual agreement and no Intellectual Property agreement unlimited access to all their test data and engineering details. I've worked for a private firm for several years who engage in far less critical product development than Nissan and they would not hesitate to set the hounds on any unknown who came within meters of project information.

......If you had read my post properly you'd have realised that the data logs I referred to were from the tests the former rallye champion (Wolf) did last Monday. He used an overseas customer car - Nissan were not involved in this. The test was initiated by KW.

Your comment on "random dude" just shows how little you know. Here another quote from this thread which you apparently have not read either:

AdamT said:

Just to add a bit towards your post dr S. The aforementioned rallye star during one of the recent nurburgring 24hrs 30-45s a lap quicker than even the manthey car when heavy fog descended on the Eifel. He knows the place very very well.

I dropped him an email and he sent me this and asked me to post it onto the discussion:


"Hi Adam,
Its funny how fast information goes around the world! I drove the Nissan GTR yesterday for KW with the KW clubsport and with the original suspension. All other parts were stock and the weight was original! Due to the fact, that there where some passing manouvers and 2 small mistakes in my line, the theoretical best time, calculated from my best sectors (with data logger), was a 7.46. ( a real lap was 7,49)
So I think, it is not possible, to go faster, when W.Röhrl and Chr.Menzel also where not able to go under 7.45!
The secret source, who watched the test of the 3 cars is not so secret: He owns a guest house in Nürbrug and was there at the test and watched everything. I spoke to him 2 days ago and it was true that tha car was far away from stock, that means power, sound, tyres, exhaust, weight!
But anyway the Nissan GTR is fast also in stock outfit and fun to drive. Only when acclerating it would need more power to the rear, to kill the understeer. Under braking conditions it steers very good into corners! Sometimes to much, but then it is even more fun!
If You want, You can post that in the internet! Source: Wolf!
Danke und Viele Grüße"


I am a big fan of the GTR, I am a little saddened that Nissan have cheated which does detract hugely from the cars very impressive performance. (7:45 full laps is astonishing for such a heavy car).

best,
adam

[Dr S]

Pugsey said:

I see that the GT-R is EVO's Car of The Year (this months issue) ahead of the GT2.

Exactly because the gt-r is so highly rated beyond pure performance stats, I don't get why Nissan needed to cheat on the ring time. It somehow devalues the car in my eyes. The "real" time on GT3 level would have been a strong enough statement.

[Dr S]

gp900bj said:

Dr S said:

......If you had read my post properly you'd have realised that the data logs I referred to were from the tests the former rallye champion (Wolf) did last Monday. He used an overseas customer car - Nissan were not involved in this. The test was initiated by KW.

Your comment on "random dude" just shows how little you know. Here another quote from this thread which you apparently have not read either:

Dr S I see you have carefully avoided my question. When I spoke of random dude I was referring to the Guesthouse owner. How did this Guesthouse owner see a stripped out interior when the the car in the 7:29 video clearly shows a FULL interior.

Furthermore, since when do highly competitive and secretive Auto manufacturers allow Guesthouse owners to observe the inner workings of their development program. Plainly this is complete BS from beginning to end.

This story is flimsy at best. You and this magical Guesthouse owner will need to dream up something far more substantial.

Good Luck

The essence of the "story" is, that both, Wolfgang W. and Walter R., both professional racers with indepth knowledge of the Ring were not able to repeat the time claimed by Nissan - by a bl*dy 15 seconds. And Wolfgang W had all the incentive to be as fast as he could that day. Now, if these two pros can't get closer than 15 seconds to the time claimed by Nissan, then nobody can.

You have carefully avoided that point in your post. I differentiated very well between what I saw last Monday and what I was told by other people. The latter only offers an explanation to the former - which you are lacking to do.

[Dr S]

gp900bj said:

Seems you have abandoned the entire premise of this thread and resorted to subjective claims based on laps conducted by other drivers on a different day.

You are forgetting that HVS produced an abysmal 7:54 Supertest lap in the 997 turbo on MPSCs where Porsche claims a 7:38 is possible. Should we open a new thread re. the 911 turbo's lap time?

T.Suzuki's capability in the GT-R is unmatched and certainly will never be tested by drivers who have never driven anything as dynamically unique as the GT-R.

When was the last time W.Rorhl or Wolfgang drove an ATTESSA platformed AWD car with a 600lb engine over the front axle and a 350lb gearbox over the rear axle?

I'll tell you: Never.

Nissan understands this situation completely. For the Nurburgring press intro to the GT-R last year they had called in a group of drivers for the purpose of taking the less experienced press for a lap around the nurb. During their time there these drivers produced lap times of 7:44 upwards with most coming in at 7:55 to 7:58 and some as low as 8:13.

Suzuki, being the primary test driver, is the only one capable of driving the GT-R to it's real limit.

You make me laugh. Your point is that two highly experienced racers, who have driven about any high-end metal there is, know every detail of the Ring by heart and are regarded as the fastest drivers around that track do not come closer than 15 seconds to magic Suzuki in the same car?

The times set by Wolfgang are not subjective but - as I have seen the logs - a fact. The GT-R is a rather easy car to drive, that's what all the motoring press claims and which was confirmed by Wolfgang as well.

The lap times set by Walter and Wolfgang prove that there was something non-standard about the car that did the 07:29. The observations of the guesthouse owner indicate in what areas the car was likely to be non-standard.

But if Suzuki is such a magician as you claim, I'm sure he can drive any Porsche 15 seconds faster around the Ring than Röhrl or Wolfgang, wich gives us a 07:23 for the 997TT and 07:15 or so for the 997GT2. And I seriously doubt these cars are capable of such times.

Given the rather aggressive tone of your post, I guess you must be employed by Niassan's press office...

[Dr S]

gp900bj said:

Horst von Saurma's abysmal 7:54 in the 997 911 turbo is proof of this.

Yes HvS's 997TT time was very weak. Well, he also did 07:50 in a 997S MkII with DSG. HvS is definitively not up with the best drivers on the Ring and he is unlikely to set the best time of any car. However, his times allow relative comparisons between cars as the driver is always the same (with variances in performance between days, of course).

Re your question: Wolfgang used a stock customer car on stock tyres.

You still struggle to explain how Suzuki can find 15 seconds over other professional racers who know the Ring much better than him (beyond ramblings on having been born with the car). One of the features of the GT-R is that it is fairly easy to drive at the limit. A 997TT is much more tricky by comparison with the way power is often unpredictably shifted between wheels.

Have you read Steve Rance's post on this thread?

Anyway, your point that is that Suzuki is the magic driver who can do things with the GT-R no one else can do. My point is that in the hands of highly experienced professional racers who know the track inside out the standard car does perform far below Nissan's claims. The positions are clear and it's time to call it a day on this thread.

[Dr S]

noumenon said:

Dr S said:

One of the features of the GT-R is that it is fairly easy to drive at the limit. A 997TT is much more tricky by comparison with the way power is often unpredictably shifted between wheels.

Everyone seems pretty much in agreement on that. Isn't that another reason the GT-R is better? How fast would the TT be if they put the engine in the right place?

Believe it or not, my point was in favour of the GT-R. The 997TT AWD system is a very fancy solution with relatively poor real world performance.

Anyone who read my posts on this thread should come to the conclusion that I rate the GT-R highly. I only doubt Nissan's claims on the 07:29 which are fishy at best.

[Dr S]

timmo said:

Guys,

Just back from a 2 day RMA trackday at the ring and was driven around in the Japanese Nissan GTR with Lambo style doors by Wolfgang Weber

the car had KW 3 way suspension but with all the electronic diffs still attached

he said he did a 7:45 last week and is still developing the car !!!

I have met him before at the Sachenring and have no reason to doubt his time

BTW - the car only does 2 and half laps of the ring before it needs refuelling ( hence why it does not race there )


tim

That's the reason why Wolfgang has all the incentive to be as fast as possible to prove that the KW suspension set-up makes the car substantially faster than stock. He also did rounds in stock set-up after his runs on KW to establish the delta. That's where the 07:45 comes from.

[Dr S]

noumenon said:

Dr S said:

noumenon said:

Dr S said:

One of the features of the GT-R is that it is fairly easy to drive at the limit. A 997TT is much more tricky by comparison with the way power is often unpredictably shifted between wheels.

Everyone seems pretty much in agreement on that. Isn't that another reason the GT-R is better? How fast would the TT be if they put the engine in the right place?

Believe it or not, my point was in favour of the GT-R. The 997TT AWD system is a very fancy solution with relatively poor real world performance.

Anyone who read my posts on this thread should come to the conclusion that I rate the GT-R highly. I only doubt Nissan's claims on the 07:29 which are fishy at best.

Really? I thought the 997 system was a leap forward with much more ability to split the power forwards (996 was 50% max, 997 is 100% iirc).

Technically it is a leap forward. It does, however, in certain situations lead to a somewhat unpredictable behaviour at the limit.

[Dr S]

Steve Rance said:

We dont care any more..

2nded - Daz: why don't you close this thread...