price pattern: 996 gt3 to follow 993rs and 964rs
Discussion
being a former 964rs owner and looking closely at 996 gt3s.
I am wondering.
I really feel like both mk1 and mk2 996 gt3 offer astonishing value for money at the moment.
Particularly when compared to 100k 993rs and 75k 964rs.
Will they reach 'iconic' status?
I think they could for being the last porsches with no electronic aids.
Last pure hardcore porsches.
The 964rs started to 'explode' in value as they were aircooled porsches. But the reall 'push-up' came when Richard Meaden from Evo bought one and soon after after Walter Rhorl bought one for his personal use too.
Germans went mental price-wise.
My view is that 996 gt3s are a 'buy' here.
I am wondering.
I really feel like both mk1 and mk2 996 gt3 offer astonishing value for money at the moment.
Particularly when compared to 100k 993rs and 75k 964rs.
Will they reach 'iconic' status?
I think they could for being the last porsches with no electronic aids.
Last pure hardcore porsches.
The 964rs started to 'explode' in value as they were aircooled porsches. But the reall 'push-up' came when Richard Meaden from Evo bought one and soon after after Walter Rhorl bought one for his personal use too.
Germans went mental price-wise.
My view is that 996 gt3s are a 'buy' here.
Edited by erics on Sunday 27th September 10:58
1. A said above, define 'many'. We are talking about a few thousand cars. Total 996 gt3s in all guises is what? 4,000 cars. Of which how many? 3,500 survive today? There were 1,000 993rs made and 2,200 964rs made. So i think it is very comparable.
2. Really? i had the 964rs and my 996 gt3 mk2 is no less special! On the contrary actually. I am sorry, they are no GTs. Go and drive one. You will see what i mean. I have never taken my gt3 on track, but DanH took me in his many times around Bedford. They are very-very special cars (i had 'regular' 911's as well).
3. Interior is relatively simple so there is little to go wrong. But i agree the 964s-993s had this 'carved through granit' feeling. The 996 gt3s are much easier to live with though. The quality of the drive-train is top quality on the 996 gt3s. Engine block of gt1 racers and nothing to do with regular 996s. In this respect they are also probably better than 997 gt3s who suffer from rms issues among other things.
4. 993rs is probably one of the most beautifull porsche ever made. The 964rs is very handsome and compact and classic 911 (for me personally, the most beautfull). But the gt3s look very purposefull and have a lot of road presence. I can always spot one in the traffic and get all excited when i see one. I am sure that a lot of people share my view on this here.
5. Porsche fans are usually very smart people who can see 'through' this kind of global ideas. They will be seen (if anything) as teh pinacle of the Wiedeking era.
What is iconic? The lack of electronic interaction between the driver and the road. The engine and gearbox combo is probably one of the best ever made. The looks (you may disagree here). Their presence on the race-car scene.
It is a light, small and simple car that is much easier to live with than 964-993rs.
EVO magazine made it one of its top 3 best drivers' cars ever. Whilst this may be a contentious issue, i still reckon that these guys know what they are talking about.
Richard Meaden bought his 964rs only weeks before the prices started to sky rocket.
2. Really? i had the 964rs and my 996 gt3 mk2 is no less special! On the contrary actually. I am sorry, they are no GTs. Go and drive one. You will see what i mean. I have never taken my gt3 on track, but DanH took me in his many times around Bedford. They are very-very special cars (i had 'regular' 911's as well).
3. Interior is relatively simple so there is little to go wrong. But i agree the 964s-993s had this 'carved through granit' feeling. The 996 gt3s are much easier to live with though. The quality of the drive-train is top quality on the 996 gt3s. Engine block of gt1 racers and nothing to do with regular 996s. In this respect they are also probably better than 997 gt3s who suffer from rms issues among other things.
4. 993rs is probably one of the most beautifull porsche ever made. The 964rs is very handsome and compact and classic 911 (for me personally, the most beautfull). But the gt3s look very purposefull and have a lot of road presence. I can always spot one in the traffic and get all excited when i see one. I am sure that a lot of people share my view on this here.
5. Porsche fans are usually very smart people who can see 'through' this kind of global ideas. They will be seen (if anything) as teh pinacle of the Wiedeking era.
What is iconic? The lack of electronic interaction between the driver and the road. The engine and gearbox combo is probably one of the best ever made. The looks (you may disagree here). Their presence on the race-car scene.
It is a light, small and simple car that is much easier to live with than 964-993rs.
EVO magazine made it one of its top 3 best drivers' cars ever. Whilst this may be a contentious issue, i still reckon that these guys know what they are talking about.
Richard Meaden bought his 964rs only weeks before the prices started to sky rocket.
PhilRS said:
This has been debated a lot. My view is that the values of GT3s will never reach those of the 964 and 993RSs. A number of reasons:
1. Many were produced under the same label (same happened to the race cars)
2. They are far less special then the air-cooled RSs, being more GTs than lightweights
3. Build quality was so-so.
4. The style of the bodywork is certainly more contentious amongst 911 lovers than the former models
5. They will be associated with the Wiedekin era of mass production and diversification of Porsche
GT3s represent incredible value for money, for sure, but I doubt that they will become iconic cars. What is iconic about them? What is really special?
1. Many were produced under the same label (same happened to the race cars)
2. They are far less special then the air-cooled RSs, being more GTs than lightweights
3. Build quality was so-so.
4. The style of the bodywork is certainly more contentious amongst 911 lovers than the former models
5. They will be associated with the Wiedekin era of mass production and diversification of Porsche
GT3s represent incredible value for money, for sure, but I doubt that they will become iconic cars. What is iconic about them? What is really special?
Diesel130, good spot and i am happy you raise it and i am happy to explain my position openly.
Regarding the point you raise: i meant looking closely at 996 gt3 *prices* (yes i do own a mk2, and yes i recently put it up for sale). I agree it lacked clarity.
I have had my 996 gt3 for a bit and my financial situation has evolved to a point where a 997 gt3 becomes a possibility.
You may believe it or not, but this post came in before my add (although i agree, closely in terms of timing).
If i was hoping to influence prices via a post on a forum, i' d be pretty foolish.
I am sorry if my writing misled you.
The reality is that i am genuinely interested to hear what people think.
And the recent EVO publication (among other things) got me thinking. As well as the way i sold my 964rs previously (read more below).
I am wondering if this is the right time to sell. Because these cars are *in my opinion* at the lowest level of their depreciation curve. Remember the 964rs' s went as low at £20k for a minter in the early 2000's.
I could well be wrong, but this is just a feeling.
A 996 gt3 or gt3rs is a very very special car, particularly because of this specific drivetrain that is way more inspiring than those in either in 993rs' s or 964 rs' s (imho again).
I sold my 964rs for £40k in 2007 and it was probably one of the nicest in Europe. It was also probably the worst time to sell! It had 40k km, black car it stunning condition, no roll cage. So i totally missed the train price-wise!
One like mine in Europe (it was a LHD) regularly sells for 80k euros.
Although i like the idea of a 997 gt3 because it is slightly more compliant on the road and i never get the chance to go to the track, i feel i could once again do the silly mistake of selling my car before prices start to get crazy.
The beauty of the 996 vs 997 gt3 is that the former is still totally analogue. No electronic aids.
For me personally, the 997 gt3 would be better because of the added comfort.
My current positioning could be totally wrong (that would not be the first time!), but i feel that the 997 gt3 and 996 gt3 prices could be converging. So I have not much to gain with the argument i defend if my idea of price evolution is right, i will loose a fair bit of money by selling the 6gt3 now and buying the 7gt3 now!
The purpose of my post is to figure out whether or not i could be doing yet another silly mistake by selling now. I did this once already..
As for the 996gt3rs, i agree with the others: it has even more potential. The only counter argument i would see to that is that it is less multi-usage than the regular gt3. Remember: 2.7 rs' s, 993 rs' s were great road cars too (may be less true for the 964rs).
Regarding the point you raise: i meant looking closely at 996 gt3 *prices* (yes i do own a mk2, and yes i recently put it up for sale). I agree it lacked clarity.
I have had my 996 gt3 for a bit and my financial situation has evolved to a point where a 997 gt3 becomes a possibility.
You may believe it or not, but this post came in before my add (although i agree, closely in terms of timing).
If i was hoping to influence prices via a post on a forum, i' d be pretty foolish.
I am sorry if my writing misled you.
The reality is that i am genuinely interested to hear what people think.
And the recent EVO publication (among other things) got me thinking. As well as the way i sold my 964rs previously (read more below).
I am wondering if this is the right time to sell. Because these cars are *in my opinion* at the lowest level of their depreciation curve. Remember the 964rs' s went as low at £20k for a minter in the early 2000's.
I could well be wrong, but this is just a feeling.
A 996 gt3 or gt3rs is a very very special car, particularly because of this specific drivetrain that is way more inspiring than those in either in 993rs' s or 964 rs' s (imho again).
I sold my 964rs for £40k in 2007 and it was probably one of the nicest in Europe. It was also probably the worst time to sell! It had 40k km, black car it stunning condition, no roll cage. So i totally missed the train price-wise!
One like mine in Europe (it was a LHD) regularly sells for 80k euros.
Although i like the idea of a 997 gt3 because it is slightly more compliant on the road and i never get the chance to go to the track, i feel i could once again do the silly mistake of selling my car before prices start to get crazy.
The beauty of the 996 vs 997 gt3 is that the former is still totally analogue. No electronic aids.
For me personally, the 997 gt3 would be better because of the added comfort.
My current positioning could be totally wrong (that would not be the first time!), but i feel that the 997 gt3 and 996 gt3 prices could be converging. So I have not much to gain with the argument i defend if my idea of price evolution is right, i will loose a fair bit of money by selling the 6gt3 now and buying the 7gt3 now!
The purpose of my post is to figure out whether or not i could be doing yet another silly mistake by selling now. I did this once already..
As for the 996gt3rs, i agree with the others: it has even more potential. The only counter argument i would see to that is that it is less multi-usage than the regular gt3. Remember: 2.7 rs' s, 993 rs' s were great road cars too (may be less true for the 964rs).
Diesel130 said:
erics said:
being a former 964rs owner and looking closely at 996 gt3s.
I am wondering.
I am confused - I thought you already had a gt3?I am wondering.
erics said:
My view is that 996 gt3s are a 'buy' here.
Haven't you just put your's up for sale, the day of this posting??Charles? What in my dreams? That gt3's will go up?
Maybe...
Maybe we are all doomed and they will all go down when electric/nuclear/water powered cars invade the entire world.
Am off to buy a tesla roadster..........................
Maybe...
Maybe we are all doomed and they will all go down when electric/nuclear/water powered cars invade the entire world.
Am off to buy a tesla roadster..........................
chfs911 said:
The smart money is swapping out of the 64RS into the 96RS. No extra cash required except for new rads and gearbox and splitter and A/C and coil pack and carbon bonnet paint .............
In your dreams Eric!
In your dreams Eric!
Charles, i actually know a guy in France who raced these when they were new in the late 1980's, in the porsche cup. He still has his original car, and got it reg' d for the road! This was before the carrera cup etc... He was relatively famous in the Porsche circles at the time. Nowadays he races contemporary gt3 cups that do not even go on the road.
He actually offered to sell it (the 944 turbo cup) to me, before I bought the 64rs... I think he still has it. You reckon it is worth a bid?
He actually offered to sell it (the 944 turbo cup) to me, before I bought the 64rs... I think he still has it. You reckon it is worth a bid?
chfs911 said:
Craig, me too re: the 964....
The guy who now owns it in France is very nice and he will love the car. I have first refusal if he sells it... He sends me pics regularly to let me know how the car is going. I can pass them on if you want?
This strd 964c2 was far more pleasant to drive all around and 99% of the time than my 964rs.
It had all the things that the rs frustrated me with.
I think a 964c2 could be made a close thing to its rs contemporary.
This statement is less true of a standard 996 versus gt3/gt3rs.
I already have a good feedback on the gt3 but will update the pics when i am back from Nice where i am now. I live just by the best roads in Europe (route Napoleon) and i do not have the gt3 with me. AAArghhh.
The guy who now owns it in France is very nice and he will love the car. I have first refusal if he sells it... He sends me pics regularly to let me know how the car is going. I can pass them on if you want?
This strd 964c2 was far more pleasant to drive all around and 99% of the time than my 964rs.
It had all the things that the rs frustrated me with.
I think a 964c2 could be made a close thing to its rs contemporary.
This statement is less true of a standard 996 versus gt3/gt3rs.
I already have a good feedback on the gt3 but will update the pics when i am back from Nice where i am now. I live just by the best roads in Europe (route Napoleon) and i do not have the gt3 with me. AAArghhh.
Craig said:
Eric
Good luck with the sale - I would advise getting some new photos done though as the current ones are a bit dark.
I too am selling my GT3 as not had a chance to do any trackdays and finding it too hard road use only (I am getting soft in my old age!).
Still wishing I had kept the 964...
Craig
Good luck with the sale - I would advise getting some new photos done though as the current ones are a bit dark.
I too am selling my GT3 as not had a chance to do any trackdays and finding it too hard road use only (I am getting soft in my old age!).
Still wishing I had kept the 964...
Craig
It is 24 Jean Pierre Comte.
His daughter is one of my oldest friends.
He had a very bad accident at Montlery in the 1990s whilst driving a 964cup in training.
He almost stopped driving, but got back into it and now drives porsches factory cups (996 and 997) and only porsches and only on the track. He has zero interest about road cars.
He kept his 944 cup for a very long time and said it was one of the best cars he ever owned.
His daughter is one of my oldest friends.
He had a very bad accident at Montlery in the 1990s whilst driving a 964cup in training.
He almost stopped driving, but got back into it and now drives porsches factory cups (996 and 997) and only porsches and only on the track. He has zero interest about road cars.
He kept his 944 cup for a very long time and said it was one of the best cars he ever owned.
chfs911 said:
bringing back a slightly old thread.
My car went today for full asking price.
There was not just one buyer. But a few.
I said it and i repeat it (i have even less reasons to say this than ever before): these cars (996 gt3) will go up in value. I think the beginning is now.
In my opinion, 996 gt3 rs will be the pick of the bunch, but very nice gt3 mk2 (the best allrounder) will also command strong prices.
The idea is that 996 gt3 and 997 gt3 prices will converge. Only my own humble opinion, but i already had an opinion before and being recently in the shoes of a seller reinforced the idea.
My car went today for full asking price.
There was not just one buyer. But a few.
I said it and i repeat it (i have even less reasons to say this than ever before): these cars (996 gt3) will go up in value. I think the beginning is now.
In my opinion, 996 gt3 rs will be the pick of the bunch, but very nice gt3 mk2 (the best allrounder) will also command strong prices.
The idea is that 996 gt3 and 997 gt3 prices will converge. Only my own humble opinion, but i already had an opinion before and being recently in the shoes of a seller reinforced the idea.
Contango, I started this thread, because I had a hunch.
Similar to the one I had when I sold my 964rs (at the wrong time).
My selling or buying of cars is based on what I like to drive as opposed to what I think will make me money.
So I sold my gt3 to go to something more suited to my current situation regardless of the market condition.
You reply was slightly cynical and maybe rightly so.
Maybe I know nothing. I sell at the worst time and I am an idiot.
But my approach of cars is not based on that.
I try to protect my capital and not buy overly depreciative price, but never buy with a view to make money.
Let us say that I try to loose as little as possible.
Craig, I was initially gonna go 997 gt3, but decided recently that I would get something a little softer for a while.
So 996tt or merc sl55 amg (flame suit on).
In the meantime I am still looking for a 'keeper' air cooled as a replacement of your ex-car. A 993 targa manual would fit the bill nicely.
But I will take time to get this one.
Similar to the one I had when I sold my 964rs (at the wrong time).
My selling or buying of cars is based on what I like to drive as opposed to what I think will make me money.
So I sold my gt3 to go to something more suited to my current situation regardless of the market condition.
You reply was slightly cynical and maybe rightly so.
Maybe I know nothing. I sell at the worst time and I am an idiot.
But my approach of cars is not based on that.
I try to protect my capital and not buy overly depreciative price, but never buy with a view to make money.
Let us say that I try to loose as little as possible.
Craig, I was initially gonna go 997 gt3, but decided recently that I would get something a little softer for a while.
So 996tt or merc sl55 amg (flame suit on).
In the meantime I am still looking for a 'keeper' air cooled as a replacement of your ex-car. A 993 targa manual would fit the bill nicely.
But I will take time to get this one.
no worries mate...
I saw a stunning midnight blue 996 tt manual today and that might just tip the scale..
Tomorrow am seeing a 12k miles merc sl 55 amg in black for v good value.
We' ll see.
I would have happily kept the gt3 for the special days etc.. but living in central London and using the car only at weekends (if at all) makes it unreasonable to have 2 or more cars.. That said am still looking for a nice aircooled-keeper!
I saw a stunning midnight blue 996 tt manual today and that might just tip the scale..
Tomorrow am seeing a 12k miles merc sl 55 amg in black for v good value.
We' ll see.
I would have happily kept the gt3 for the special days etc.. but living in central London and using the car only at weekends (if at all) makes it unreasonable to have 2 or more cars.. That said am still looking for a nice aircooled-keeper!
contango said:
erics said:
Contango, I started this thread, because I had a hunch.
Similar to the one I had when I sold my 964rs (at the wrong time).
My selling or buying of cars is based on what I like to drive as opposed to what I think will make me money.
So I sold my gt3 to go to something more suited to my current situation regardless of the market condition.
You reply was slightly cynical and maybe rightly so.
Maybe I know nothing. I sell at the worst time and I am an idiot.
But my approach of cars is not based on that.
I try to protect my capital and not buy overly depreciative price, but never buy with a view to make money.
Let us say that I try to loose as little as possible.
Craig, I was initially gonna go 997 gt3, but decided recently that I would get something a little softer for a while.
So 996tt or merc sl55 amg (flame suit on).
In the meantime I am still looking for a 'keeper' air cooled as a replacement of your ex-car. A 993 targa manual would fit the bill nicely.
But I will take time to get this one.
Erics, just banter note the smilies......,,,,it seems after owning both 64Rs & Gt3 for a few months each they are not to your taste, hope you find what you are looking for.....Lets see what rates, the economy and perhaps more importantly future legislation do to the potential use and values of these cars going forward...who knows? Similar to the one I had when I sold my 964rs (at the wrong time).
My selling or buying of cars is based on what I like to drive as opposed to what I think will make me money.
So I sold my gt3 to go to something more suited to my current situation regardless of the market condition.
You reply was slightly cynical and maybe rightly so.
Maybe I know nothing. I sell at the worst time and I am an idiot.
But my approach of cars is not based on that.
I try to protect my capital and not buy overly depreciative price, but never buy with a view to make money.
Let us say that I try to loose as little as possible.
Craig, I was initially gonna go 997 gt3, but decided recently that I would get something a little softer for a while.
So 996tt or merc sl55 amg (flame suit on).
In the meantime I am still looking for a 'keeper' air cooled as a replacement of your ex-car. A 993 targa manual would fit the bill nicely.
But I will take time to get this one.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff