Why is diesel now bad news?
Discussion
One of the reasons why I am not a fan of diesel cars - petrol all the way.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-3038...
The mayor of Paris wants the city to become 'semi-pedestrianised'
Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
Air pollution 'public health crisis'
Call for Paris ban on diesel cars
The Mayor of Paris Anne Hidalgo wants to ban diesel cars and the pollution they bring from the streets of the French capital. But not long ago, diesel engines were thought to be environmentally friendly. What could have gone wrong?
Opinion on diesel cars has swung widely over the years.
Diesel is a more efficient fuel than petrol, but in the past diesel engines were often noisy and dirty.
Then, with growing concerns over climate change, car manufacturers were urged to produce cleaner, quieter diesel cars to capitalise on their extra fuel efficiency.
The cars were fitted with a trap to catch the particles of smoke associated with the fuel. Several governments rewarded the manufacturing improvements by incentivising the purchase and use of diesel cars.
But the policy has backfired.
Going into reverse
First, there have been problems with the particle traps - some drivers have removed them because they sometimes don't work properly unless the car is driven hot.
Second, the diesels are still producing nitrogen dioxide (NO2), which irritates the lungs of people with breathing problems. Diesels make several times more NO2 than petrol cars.
Now, in order to meet European air pollution laws, politicians are being forced into an embarrassing U-turn, telling drivers that they've decided they don't much like diesels after all.
MPs in the UK have mooted a scrappage scheme for diesel cars, while the mayor of Paris has called for a ban.
Several European nations are currently in breach of EU clean air laws.
The EU’s NO2 limit was exceeded at 301 sites in 2012, including seven in London. The concentration on Marylebone Road was more than double the limit.
Districts in Athens, Berlin, Brussels, Madrid, Paris, and Rome are also exceeded the ceiling.
line
Not just carbon: Key pollutants for human health
Particulate matter (PM): Can cause or aggravate cardiovascular and lung diseases, heart attacks and arrhythmias. Can cause cancer. May lead to atherosclerosis, adverse birth outcomes and childhood respiratory disease. The outcome can be premature death.
Ozone (O3): Can decrease lung function and aggravate asthma and other lung diseases. Can also lead to premature death.
Nitrogen oxides (NO2): Exposure to NO2 is associated with increased deaths from heart and lung disease, and respiratory illness.
Polyaromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), in particular benzo a-pyrene (BaP): Carcinogenic.
line
Politicians are now scurrying to persuade the courts that they are obeying an EU demand to clean up the air as soon as possible.
The Paris mayor said at the weekend that she wanted the city to become ‘semi-pedestrianised’, with a ban on diesel cars in the city centre and some neighbourhoods given entirely to residents’ cars, delivery vehicles and emergency vehicles.
"I want diesel cars out of Paris by 2020," she said.
Ms Hidalgo hopes that her plan will improve the quality of the air in a city where, on average, people live six or seven months less than those who are not exposed to the same levels of pollution.
Adding electric vans and putting limits on tourist buses would also help lessen the public health risk, she said.
Premature death
Bikes are expected to become the favoured form of transport, with cycle lanes doubled by 2020 in a $141m (£90m) plan.
The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson has promised to halve pollution, spending around $516m (£330m) to bring 2,400 hybrid buses, zero-emission taxis and 10,000 street trees. The announcement came weeks after he was forced to accept that Oxford Street has some of the highest levels of NO2 in the world.
Central London will also have an 'Ultra Low Emission Zone' in 2020. Mr Johnson has previously faced criticism from health and environment lobby groups complaining that he was dragging his feet in meeting EU targets.
The UK government says it is responding to EU demands by bringing forward new plans. Labour say the government has ignored the issue - they demand low-emissions zones in all of the UK’s major cities.
ship exhaust Shipping is also a major contributor to air pollution
According to the European Environment Agency, air pollution is the top environmental risk factor for premature death in Europe; it increases the incidence of a wide range of diseases.
Particulate matter (PM) and ground-level ozone (O3) are the most harmful pollutants.
Vehicles are by no means the only source of pollutants – some industries are major polluters too, and shipping in some places. But the politicians who run Europe’s biggest cities have protested that they cannot control pollution from industry elsewhere that drifts into their area.
With so many nations failing to meet pollution laws, the EU is under pressure to relax air standards.
Follow Roger on Twitter
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-3038...
The mayor of Paris wants the city to become 'semi-pedestrianised'
Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
Air pollution 'public health crisis'
Call for Paris ban on diesel cars
The Mayor of Paris Anne Hidalgo wants to ban diesel cars and the pollution they bring from the streets of the French capital. But not long ago, diesel engines were thought to be environmentally friendly. What could have gone wrong?
Opinion on diesel cars has swung widely over the years.
Diesel is a more efficient fuel than petrol, but in the past diesel engines were often noisy and dirty.
Then, with growing concerns over climate change, car manufacturers were urged to produce cleaner, quieter diesel cars to capitalise on their extra fuel efficiency.
The cars were fitted with a trap to catch the particles of smoke associated with the fuel. Several governments rewarded the manufacturing improvements by incentivising the purchase and use of diesel cars.
But the policy has backfired.
Going into reverse
First, there have been problems with the particle traps - some drivers have removed them because they sometimes don't work properly unless the car is driven hot.
Second, the diesels are still producing nitrogen dioxide (NO2), which irritates the lungs of people with breathing problems. Diesels make several times more NO2 than petrol cars.
Now, in order to meet European air pollution laws, politicians are being forced into an embarrassing U-turn, telling drivers that they've decided they don't much like diesels after all.
MPs in the UK have mooted a scrappage scheme for diesel cars, while the mayor of Paris has called for a ban.
Several European nations are currently in breach of EU clean air laws.
The EU’s NO2 limit was exceeded at 301 sites in 2012, including seven in London. The concentration on Marylebone Road was more than double the limit.
Districts in Athens, Berlin, Brussels, Madrid, Paris, and Rome are also exceeded the ceiling.
line
Not just carbon: Key pollutants for human health
Particulate matter (PM): Can cause or aggravate cardiovascular and lung diseases, heart attacks and arrhythmias. Can cause cancer. May lead to atherosclerosis, adverse birth outcomes and childhood respiratory disease. The outcome can be premature death.
Ozone (O3): Can decrease lung function and aggravate asthma and other lung diseases. Can also lead to premature death.
Nitrogen oxides (NO2): Exposure to NO2 is associated with increased deaths from heart and lung disease, and respiratory illness.
Polyaromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), in particular benzo a-pyrene (BaP): Carcinogenic.
line
Politicians are now scurrying to persuade the courts that they are obeying an EU demand to clean up the air as soon as possible.
The Paris mayor said at the weekend that she wanted the city to become ‘semi-pedestrianised’, with a ban on diesel cars in the city centre and some neighbourhoods given entirely to residents’ cars, delivery vehicles and emergency vehicles.
"I want diesel cars out of Paris by 2020," she said.
Ms Hidalgo hopes that her plan will improve the quality of the air in a city where, on average, people live six or seven months less than those who are not exposed to the same levels of pollution.
Adding electric vans and putting limits on tourist buses would also help lessen the public health risk, she said.
Premature death
Bikes are expected to become the favoured form of transport, with cycle lanes doubled by 2020 in a $141m (£90m) plan.
The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson has promised to halve pollution, spending around $516m (£330m) to bring 2,400 hybrid buses, zero-emission taxis and 10,000 street trees. The announcement came weeks after he was forced to accept that Oxford Street has some of the highest levels of NO2 in the world.
Central London will also have an 'Ultra Low Emission Zone' in 2020. Mr Johnson has previously faced criticism from health and environment lobby groups complaining that he was dragging his feet in meeting EU targets.
The UK government says it is responding to EU demands by bringing forward new plans. Labour say the government has ignored the issue - they demand low-emissions zones in all of the UK’s major cities.
ship exhaust Shipping is also a major contributor to air pollution
According to the European Environment Agency, air pollution is the top environmental risk factor for premature death in Europe; it increases the incidence of a wide range of diseases.
Particulate matter (PM) and ground-level ozone (O3) are the most harmful pollutants.
Vehicles are by no means the only source of pollutants – some industries are major polluters too, and shipping in some places. But the politicians who run Europe’s biggest cities have protested that they cannot control pollution from industry elsewhere that drifts into their area.
With so many nations failing to meet pollution laws, the EU is under pressure to relax air standards.
Follow Roger on Twitter
It was from BBC, not Daily Mail.
heebeegeetee said:
This is the problem with only getting your info from the Daily Mail (which is where that source originated from I believe).
To read that article you could think that none of it applies to petrol engines - but it does, petrol engines cause much the same harm, with some difference between the two. It's ridiculous imo to differentiate between petrol and diesel in this regard.
I understand that Paris is looking to ban all internal combustion engines from the central areas, not just diesel.
To read that article you could think that none of it applies to petrol engines - but it does, petrol engines cause much the same harm, with some difference between the two. It's ridiculous imo to differentiate between petrol and diesel in this regard.
I understand that Paris is looking to ban all internal combustion engines from the central areas, not just diesel.
There is more taxis than Buses using Oxford Street. Both do s
t loads of miles, like HGV's etc. What pisses me off with diesels is the idiots that buy them just for A-B because of they think they are getting better value, but 90% of the times those people that have not done their homework end up paying more, due to higher price of the fuel, short journeys do not warrant the diesel, the parts are pricey and servicing tends to be more.
t loads of miles, like HGV's etc. What pisses me off with diesels is the idiots that buy them just for A-B because of they think they are getting better value, but 90% of the times those people that have not done their homework end up paying more, due to higher price of the fuel, short journeys do not warrant the diesel, the parts are pricey and servicing tends to be more.watchnut said:
old Boris might be in trouble if Oxford street is really bad on diesel fumes, as i believe it is only open to buses....which make massive amounts of dirty fumes
The French will not ban diesels from Paris, as just about every car in france is an Oil burner
Just shows that Eurocrats make up stats and figures without looking out of the window......
The French will not ban diesels from Paris, as just about every car in france is an Oil burner
Just shows that Eurocrats make up stats and figures without looking out of the window......
Not Daily Mail. Diesel is the fuel of Satan, the quicker its gone from cars the better. Sick of the constant diesel cars on the roads now. Go in other countries around the world and diesel cars are still a big minority and diesel in these countries costs less than petrol.
Too many idiots have jumped on the bandwagon and buy diesels for pointless pathetic reasons and hardly even warrant the mileage.
Too many idiots have jumped on the bandwagon and buy diesels for pointless pathetic reasons and hardly even warrant the mileage.
heebeegeetee said:
This is the problem with only getting your info from the Daily Mail (which is where that source originated from I believe).
To read that article you could think that none of it applies to petrol engines - but it does, petrol engines cause much the same harm, with some difference between the two. It's ridiculous imo to differentiate between petrol and diesel in this regard.
I understand that Paris is looking to ban all internal combustion engines from the central areas, not just diesel.
To read that article you could think that none of it applies to petrol engines - but it does, petrol engines cause much the same harm, with some difference between the two. It's ridiculous imo to differentiate between petrol and diesel in this regard.
I understand that Paris is looking to ban all internal combustion engines from the central areas, not just diesel.
LMAO at blonde, no surprise there eh. I bet she loved her "Deezul"
mightymouse said:
Anyone see the Despatches programe on this last night ?
Horror shock - car does not do MPG that manufacture claims - blonde woman surprised, thinks she's been conned.
NOX emisions high - blonde woman surprised, thinks she's been conned.
Some minister admits ......we was conned...
Horror shock - car does not do MPG that manufacture claims - blonde woman surprised, thinks she's been conned.
NOX emisions high - blonde woman surprised, thinks she's been conned.
Some minister admits ......we was conned...
Ad-blue is used in many diesel cars now. i.e. blue motion, blue efficiency etc.
If petrol engines had the same tech being used on diesels; they would be more powerful and get more mpg. Hence the reason now, many of the newer petrol engines over the past 5 years have downsized.
Many petrols are now employing direct injection, high compression ratios, turbo charging etc which diesels have had for years.
Lead was only used to lubricate certain parts as softer metal was used in parts like cylinder head valve seats.
The manufacturers will get paid for whatever they do, how can it work in any other way? if diesel cars die a death then petrols will be at a premium.
Petrols had cats years before diesels; petrols have had to downsize and take to mulitple, complex turbo arrangements. They have egr sysems too, which also block up. Adblue is not used in cars, but petrol won't work without additives. TEL (lead) was used for about 70 years, even though it was as known to be as harmful to health at the beginning as it was at the end, and indeed it was to negate the harmful effects of this additive that cats were introduced back in the seventies. TEL was replaced by highly carcinogenic substances like benzene, and cats have of course remained.
If petrol engines had the same tech being used on diesels; they would be more powerful and get more mpg. Hence the reason now, many of the newer petrol engines over the past 5 years have downsized.
Many petrols are now employing direct injection, high compression ratios, turbo charging etc which diesels have had for years.
Lead was only used to lubricate certain parts as softer metal was used in parts like cylinder head valve seats.
heebeegeetee said:
ORD said:
Of course it is. They have geared up to sell lots of diesel cars and are gutted that the big diesel scam is coming to an end.
jhfozzy said:
You can almost smell the fear coming off the manufacturers.
"We're almost up to par with the nox emissions of a petrol".
Yes, you are, but only after fitting Cats, DPFs, EGR, SCR, AddBlue etc. Which on the whole costs mega bucks when it goes wrong. But they don't care about that part as it brings in more money for them in parts sales and repairs.
Eh? Diesel is still cheaper than petrol all over Europe."We're almost up to par with the nox emissions of a petrol".
Yes, you are, but only after fitting Cats, DPFs, EGR, SCR, AddBlue etc. Which on the whole costs mega bucks when it goes wrong. But they don't care about that part as it brings in more money for them in parts sales and repairs.
The manufacturers will get paid for whatever they do, how can it work in any other way? if diesel cars die a death then petrols will be at a premium.
Petrols had cats years before diesels; petrols have had to downsize and take to mulitple, complex turbo arrangements. They have egr sysems too, which also block up. Adblue is not used in cars, but petrol won't work without additives. TEL (lead) was used for about 70 years, even though it was as known to be as harmful to health at the beginning as it was at the end, and indeed it was to negate the harmful effects of this additive that cats were introduced back in the seventies. TEL was replaced by highly carcinogenic substances like benzene, and cats have of course remained.
Sounds more truth than balls.
I have a fairly strong suspicion that the talks between European car manufacturers and European governments over CO2 taxes and diesel pollution were fairly nakedly protectionist - 'All we need is for you to create a taxation regime that favours Diesel engines and wel'll all do great and pay loads of tax'. An enormous policy failure like we have had in the UK (the government effectively subsidising extremely polluting new cars) really should lead to a review and investigations. Someone fked up really badly!
ORD said:
Foppo said:
So we should have got away from diesel years ago.And the Japanese would have been running the show.Thanks to this cartel we are choking to death in our city's.
Is this bks or has it got some truth?
Quite a lot of truth in it.Is this b
ks or has it got some truth?I have a fairly strong suspicion that the talks between European car manufacturers and European governments over CO2 taxes and diesel pollution were fairly nakedly protectionist - 'All we need is for you to create a taxation regime that favours Diesel engines and wel'll all do great and pay loads of tax'. An enormous policy failure like we have had in the UK (the government effectively subsidising extremely polluting new cars) really should lead to a review and investigations. Someone f
ked up really badly!Gassing Station | Motoring News | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff