Too much cam noise?

[Luckyone]

Its done about 400 miles since finishing the rebuild & is running very well, lovely to drive, but I can't remember how noisy the engine used to be as it's a good few years ago when it was last running. So I'm nursing it round at under 4k revs.

I had the problem with the valve getting stuck in the new guide so had to pull the engine back out, it's now got all new valves, exhaust guides & one new bucket. Obviously it should really have had a new cam & a new set of buckets but the machine shop weren't going to stretch to that, it was the best part of 1Ks worth of parts they gave me to rebuild it with as it was.

I set the clearances at 10 & 12 thou, they had ended up much closer than that (some at 0 hence the new valves) before the rebuild, so it stands to reason it will be noisier now. Just I'm not sure how noisy it should be.

I should really take the valve covers off & have a look but I just haven't got the time. So was hoping someone could listen to it & see if you think the noise warrants finding some time.

Rubish vid here

(The oil temp won't seem to go much above 50 this time of year) At the end of the vid I get in & shut the door, it's very quite then.

[Luckyone]

Thanks for listening eveyone, yes I keep waiting for the noise to go away as it warms up but that just isn't happening.

The rubbish phone mic isn't helping how it sounds, it looses a lot of the bass of the exhaust that masks the noise when your next to it, but I was thinking even so it sounds a bit too noisy.

Typically out of the 7 cars that are here the Cerb is the only one I can legally drive on the road at the mo. Lucky I don't actually have to drive it anywhere, I just need an emergency car here as I'm looking after the kids now (between messing about with all the other cars!)

My better half is getting a 640d very soon so that will free up her old 530i for me, then I'll have a poke at the Cerb.

[Luckyone]

Jubag said:

yours sounds like its not all the lifters if you see what I mean, it's not frequent enough to be all of them.

Yes I was thinking that my self, investigation is definitely required then. I can see more big bills coming....

[Luckyone]

Yeah, the cam has had it:











At least a new cam & followers aren't too hard to fit....

[Luckyone]

spitfire4v8 said:

You say you've done 400 miles since rebuild, presumably the cam wasn't like that already then. SO, the follower has marked up and the cam is wearing after 400 miles. Did you flood the top end with oil before starting? The ajp is normally very kind on its cams because the followers sit in an oil bath so never run dry on that all important startup period.
Is the follower that's marked up the one you changed by any chance? I saw an engine that had not long had a rebuild, was in for valve check and mapping and two followers were already scored and one was taking the cam lobe with it.

I was half expecting to find the cam with a problem when I removed the cover, in my first post I said the only thing not changed was the cam. I was just really hoping it wasn't the case!

Yes that follower was the new one. That was the valve that stuck & made a mess of the old bucket, this is what the old lifter looked like before everything bar the cam was replaced:



I was worried at the time that cam lobe was damaged also, the edges of the lobe were rounded over (as you'd expect with the bucket lifter looking like that!) You can see the scuff marks from the edges of the lobe on the old lifter there. The valve stuck, the shim came off then punched lumps into the the follower, it was off centre so only the edges of the cam showed any sign of damage at the time, but it's clearly toast now! I think it's safe to say that is when it was damaged. Because I was worried about it I was very careful to be sure it was all very well lubed before staring it up, I got good oil pressure very quickly after staring too. I'm not going it to more than that now till I've spoken to the machine shop again.

Interesting what you found with those followers though.

Edited by Luckyone on Wednesday 17th December 12:44

[Luckyone]

ridds said:

Where are those cams from?

It's my original cam, it was fine till the valve stuck under that lobe.

[Luckyone]

plasticman said:

It does not look like that bucket can rotate properly

The bucket in that pic above certainly could not rotate properly, it was locked to the valve cap by bits of smashed shim.

That's not the bucket that's in it now though, it had a new one. But the cam was the same one that was acting on the bucket above.

[Luckyone]

ridds said:

Ahhh, so you put the old damaged cam lobe onto the new follower after the valve had stuck previously.

Whoopsie, that won't have helped matters as the lobe nose loading wouldn't be even at all after that sort of damage.

Yes as I said in the first post the machine shop didn't want to stretch to a new cam & set of followers when they gave me all the other stuff to fix the stuck valve for no charge. I wasn't too sure about the life span of the cam after that kind of damage, guess I know now! Makes sense about the side loading. I didn't insist at the time as cams aren't too hard to swap.

It looks like the machine shop will now provide a replacement cam FOC so will hopfully be back on the road soon. Hopfully with no lasting damage...

[Luckyone]

Xmas got in the way a bit & they forgot about it, I've just reminded them hopefully a cam will appear soon. Not really the weather for fully rebuilt cerbs at the mo anyway.

I'm busy pulling the engine out of an old 325i that a mate killed by putting engine flush in right now. It was a perfectly good car before he put the flush in 10 miles later by the time he got to me for a quick oil change a big end bearing had totally gone, so much for a quick oil change!

I need to stick to body work....

[Luckyone]

After quite a long wait the machine shop finally tracked down a replacement cam for me, so a brief moment of hope till I checked it against my old one. A quick measurement of them showed the replacement cam was about 0.5mm bigger overall, but worse the profiles looked different, so I checked them.

Click on pics to make them big if you want

A cast taken from a good lobe of my old cam:



Then placed on the replacement:


I think my old one is a clatter cam & the replacement is a later one. The hex drive on it seems like a good idea though!





So now I'm a bit stuck with two odd cams, the machine shop may have the other cam to match the replacement they sent, but I don't really want to swap a perfectly good cam with an unknown one.

Anyone got a clatter(?) cam they want to swap with a later one?!

[Luckyone]

ukkid35 said:

As David Coulthard once said: "If he didn't have bad luck he'd have no luck at all."

Wish you all the best.

Ha yes, it's been more than once have I regretted choosing that stupid user name....

[Luckyone]

purpleliability said:

Have a chat with Andy at APM, he may have one for you.

I've already sent him an email, I should point out he has nothing to with any of this mess. My old cams were in very good condition from the many services he did on it!

[Luckyone]

Jhonno said:

I am not sure the non clatter will work so well..?

Yes that was the impression I got from odd posts on here. However the two cams have just about the same overall dimentions so will give the same max valve lift but the later one has a fatter tip or longer duration so keeps the valve at a higher lift for longer, I've forgotton anything I did know about cams other than its a black art & bigger isn't always better....

[Luckyone]

So it seem there are three types of cam used in the AJP, no difference between 4.2 or 4.5 as far as I can tell, just in age.

First there was the clatter cam the one with the hex drive in my pics, this has the fattest lobe.

Then there was the type originally fitted to our 98 4.5, the one in my pics that hasn't got the hex drive on it.

Lastly there is the only type available to buy now, the chill cast (not sure how the older ones are made), this apparently has the softest profile. These two have the hex drive section on them like the first clatter cams.

No one has got a good non hex drive to match my good one (even bank), so at the moment I've got one good clatter cam & one good second type that's always been in the engine.

I'm told by my TVR machine shop it will run fine with these mismatching cams in, though they do have the other clatter cam to go with the one I've already been sent if I want it to be right only they want 100quid for that. Probably worth the money & they said the used clatter cams would be fine with my old followers. I'm not so sure about that though.

So my options are:

Run with two different cams - No more cost don't really like that idea

Have two clatter cams on my old followers - "should be fine" 100 quid

Have two clatter cams with new followers 400 quid (though I would have a good cam with matching followers to sell then)

Safe option two new cams & follower , down the best part of 1,000 quid then

Were there any problems with the old clatter cams, apart from the noise?

Any other opinions? Helpful or otherwise...

[Luckyone]

Tanguero said:

I have the cams that came off my 4.2 during the 4.7 conversion. I am fairly sure they are the middle type as I have a receipt for it having the original clatter cams replaced before I got it. One of them has a worn/scored journal but I believe the other one is fine. I just had a look and cant see any sign of the hex that you mention. My good cam is the longer one - not sure which side that is off. PM me if it is any use to you.

Edited by Tanguero on Thursday 7th May 15:33

Sounds promising thanks

I didn't know the cams were different lengths, nice easy way to identify them. I'll pull the other cover off to check when I get a moment & get back to you.

[Luckyone]

Tanguero said:

The long cam (the good one) is 475mm and the short one is 455mm I can't unfortunately remeber for sure which is from which side, but I have a feeling the one with the scored journal was drivers side, which would make the long one passenger side.

Thanks for those measurements, I didn't get the cover off the drivers side in the end the kids came to "help" but I did get to mesure my bad one about 453mm & the clatter replacement 454mm so not sounding good. They are for the passenger side (odd bank) so I will get the cover off the drivers side when I can to be sure that is the long one.

[Luckyone]

Tanguero said:

The long cam (the good one) is 475mm and the short one is 455mm I can't unfortunately remeber for sure which is from which side, but I have a feeling the one with the scored journal was drivers side, which would make the long one passenger side.

My bad one is the short one too

After pulling the cover off the drivers side (even bank) I relised the head is 20mm longer than the other - doh! It's obvious to anyone who's looked at the engine one side is set back from the other as it has to be to run on the same crank. I've even had the heads next to each other on the bench & not really noticed one was longer!

[Luckyone]

Jhonno said:

I think I'd go for clatter cams and new followers personally.. If only to keep the character of the proper 4.2.

Think I'll have to now!

Though ours is a 4.5 & didn't have clatter cams. I'm guessing now but maybe they had stopped using them by the time the 4.5 came along. Ours is a "GT" so quite an early one.

Or just maybe the first 420 BHP 4.5 they got those figers from did have them, some how doubt that's how the 420 was arived at though...

I would like to know why they stopped using the clatter cams before fitting them though. Anyone?

[Luckyone]

Toadusmodus said:

My '96 had the original clatter cams when I bought it in 2000. I do remember talk back then that the clatter cams were more prone to premature wear due to the more aggressive profile. Whether they stopped using them because of that, noise, or some other reason, who knows....?

Have you still got the clatter cams in then?

I had a feeling I may have heard something like that. Seems a possibly a little odd as the second type had the same max lift as the first just the lobe is thinner, I'd think maybe the fatter lobe of the clatter cam would bring the valve to max lift slightly more gently? I'm only guessing there though.

PS nice wheels by the way Rota's?

[Luckyone]

ukkid35 said:

There is one other camshaft option - the Tuscan Race Cams. Some time ago Phil Eggerton of MCD was selling a pair, but they would have needed uprated valve springs as well. I was tempted, but I'm really not interested in taking those heads off again. I know it is theoretically possible to change valve springs with the heads in situ, but I think the chance of buying the cams has long since past as MCD don't even seem to have a working website any more.

http://business-directory.autosport.com/company/74...

Intresting, I'm not pulling my heads off for a third time with out a very good reason though!