Harry talks about detail....
Discussion
Tom73 said:
It's good feature but I can't help but to find it quite disturbing that EVO/Harry continues their shameless tabloid hit-jobs for Pagani in Horacio's crazy PR-war against Koenigsegg. First it was the Nurburgring debacle where the Egg was forced to run on street tyres and settings because they didn't deem their factory settings for the track stock unlike Pagani's settings (nevermind the driver being a Pagani test driver and the owner a personal friend of Horacio, much like Harry), and now there's this obvious underhanded "response" to DRIVE's feature on Koenigsegg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp_qxKWMsVw
Personally I would love to see Pagani undergo SportAuto tests again instead of this forth and forth stuff they've resorted to, but I'm assuming this will never happen since Horacio deemed Horst bias when they got thoroughly beaten by Koenigsegg and Porsche. Much better then to conduct your own "testing" and "features" so any unpleasant surprises and "biases" can be kept to a minimum.
Ok I'm going to bite. As the resident Pagani fan boy here could you please explain this "crazy PR war against Koenigsegg" to me please and also point out the underhanded response to the Drive feature. Because almost every response to that video appears to be positive.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp_qxKWMsVw
Personally I would love to see Pagani undergo SportAuto tests again instead of this forth and forth stuff they've resorted to, but I'm assuming this will never happen since Horacio deemed Horst bias when they got thoroughly beaten by Koenigsegg and Porsche. Much better then to conduct your own "testing" and "features" so any unpleasant surprises and "biases" can be kept to a minimum.
By the way I thought the Drive video was brilliant and actually called for such a video on here from Koneigsegg weeks before it appeared as I though Koenigsegg needed to up their PR game. You can read that thread here http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by Streetrod on Saturday 30th June 20:55
Ok I asked for that, but Wow Tom73, I was not expecting such a forensic examination of that video. But before I offer my response, and I have said this on a number of occasions that I am a fan of Christian Von Koenigsegg the man. He took an idea and a dream and made it real. His latest cars are now produced to a very high standard but I stand by comments made on a number of occasions in the past that his early cars were substandard. Also I want to make it clear that I know two of the guys that work for Koenigsegg very well as friends.
Now too that video. Driven not only visited Koenigsegg but also did a similar video at Pagani. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz4KBh5I4WE
Was Harry's video a direct response to the Egg one I suspect not, why would they need too? Harry was already at the factory filming the first drive videos for the Huayra for EVO magazine. To review this car and not point out the things he did would not have left much to review. Cars in general are all filled with the same stuff. And let’s not forget that Harry has also been to the Koenigsegg factory on a number of occasions as can been seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVarKLId0wE I don’t notice him slagging the car off
On talking to people from both factories over the years, yes they are aware of what each is doing but I don’t think they spend much time worrying about it. If you talk to Horacio he will not even admit that Koenigsegg are a rival (but then he would say that)
At the end of the day the numbers speak for themselves Pagani has sold in percentage terms a lot more cars than Koenigsegg, they are 97% Pagani family owned and have no borrowing plus they are profitable. And last year were offered over $200 million for the company. Christian Von Koenigsegg owns I think it is 53% of his company, the rest is owned by technical partners and investors. Would he be offered $200 million? I suspect not.
Pagani’s success has been fuelled by producing the poster car of this generation. Magazines and media types have beaten a path to his door, high profile types have bought and the YouTube generation have produced almost universal positive PR with a number of professionally produced videos by Pagani himself as the cherry on the cake.
Koenigsegg need to do the same, this is business, its not selling out
Now let’s cover some of your technical questions. First the exhaust is ceramic coated on the finished car.
The battery does not need a heat shield as its location does not require it.
Now too the aero which is very misunderstood on this car. First it does not require a front splitter as the design of the nose section already acts line one and produces down force .
Unless you are privy to the wind tunnel tests on the flaps then how can you say they do not work? For a start they perform two main functions in conjunctions with the hydraulic front suspension. Under breaking the rear flaps raise as an aero brake moving the centre of pressure back whilst at the same time the front suspension raises so increasing break efficiency. As to the other use of stabilising the car during cornering the effect will increase with speed. I have some technical documentation info on this that I will post if I can find it.
Why opt for carbo titanium, why the hell not its meets the design criteria of the car.
Now too your comments about the cars design, how can a car designed by Pagani not be a Pagani design? As for the Spyker comparisons, are you serious?
As LFB has said I would love to visit the Koenigsegg factory at some point, as I said I have friends that work there. LFB’ second to last paragraph hits the nail on the head. These companies are fishing in a very shallow pond, Koenigsegg need to do more.
Now too that video. Driven not only visited Koenigsegg but also did a similar video at Pagani. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz4KBh5I4WE
Was Harry's video a direct response to the Egg one I suspect not, why would they need too? Harry was already at the factory filming the first drive videos for the Huayra for EVO magazine. To review this car and not point out the things he did would not have left much to review. Cars in general are all filled with the same stuff. And let’s not forget that Harry has also been to the Koenigsegg factory on a number of occasions as can been seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVarKLId0wE I don’t notice him slagging the car off
On talking to people from both factories over the years, yes they are aware of what each is doing but I don’t think they spend much time worrying about it. If you talk to Horacio he will not even admit that Koenigsegg are a rival (but then he would say that)
At the end of the day the numbers speak for themselves Pagani has sold in percentage terms a lot more cars than Koenigsegg, they are 97% Pagani family owned and have no borrowing plus they are profitable. And last year were offered over $200 million for the company. Christian Von Koenigsegg owns I think it is 53% of his company, the rest is owned by technical partners and investors. Would he be offered $200 million? I suspect not.
Pagani’s success has been fuelled by producing the poster car of this generation. Magazines and media types have beaten a path to his door, high profile types have bought and the YouTube generation have produced almost universal positive PR with a number of professionally produced videos by Pagani himself as the cherry on the cake.
Koenigsegg need to do the same, this is business, its not selling out
Now let’s cover some of your technical questions. First the exhaust is ceramic coated on the finished car.
The battery does not need a heat shield as its location does not require it.
Now too the aero which is very misunderstood on this car. First it does not require a front splitter as the design of the nose section already acts line one and produces down force .
Unless you are privy to the wind tunnel tests on the flaps then how can you say they do not work? For a start they perform two main functions in conjunctions with the hydraulic front suspension. Under breaking the rear flaps raise as an aero brake moving the centre of pressure back whilst at the same time the front suspension raises so increasing break efficiency. As to the other use of stabilising the car during cornering the effect will increase with speed. I have some technical documentation info on this that I will post if I can find it.
Why opt for carbo titanium, why the hell not its meets the design criteria of the car.
Now too your comments about the cars design, how can a car designed by Pagani not be a Pagani design? As for the Spyker comparisons, are you serious?
As LFB has said I would love to visit the Koenigsegg factory at some point, as I said I have friends that work there. LFB’ second to last paragraph hits the nail on the head. These companies are fishing in a very shallow pond, Koenigsegg need to do more.
Top73, from the top can we please try and keep this civil, I am not interested in winding you up and see no reason why you appear to be trying to make this personal. Harry's name is Harry, not Arry and Mr Pagani should warrant the same respect from you that Christian does from me, especially as neither are here to defend themselves
I can’t cover all of your points at this time as I just don’t have the time, but here are a few. First the exhaust you see are not nessasaraly the ones that end up on the finished car. Pagani uses a number of parts that are just used for mock up and testing purposes, with the final parts being added just prior to delivery. This practise can be seen on a number of videos. Also as you well know ceramic and plasma coatings come in a number of colours so you may not being seeing what you think you are seeing.
Under floor aero, The Huayra is not a race, you might argue its less of a race car than the Zonda, I would say it’s a very fast GT. But it is longer than a Zonda therefore has a longer floor and wheel base and larger area so increasing down force as you say. Also please note like the early Zonda's this car does not have an aggressive splitter or diffuser, these were added when the CS and Cinque appeared. Expect similar upgrades in the Huayra's future
Now why should the Huayra be built to F1 standards, I know of no other car that is, also it’s not a practical proposition. As for being able to stand up to a 230 MPH crash, what do you mean by that? Because if you mean the concreat block head on test even F1 cars are not tested at that speed, even if the car did survive the driver certainly would not.
Your crash pictures are also very misleading. You cannot draw any conclusions from those pics unless you know all of the factors that lead up to those pics. The second picture you mention you say happened at 62 MPH, I think you may find that that accident actually happened at between 160mph and 190mph depending on which report you believe. Oh and both passengers walked away.
Other crashes have shown the cars coming apart in the way you describe they should, what I find interesting is that some of those have actually been rebuilt using the original tubs, probably the most famous being the Blue Zonda Uno
To my knowledge no one has ever died or suffered a serious injury in a Pagani crash.
Now to the Pagani design language, Pagani's design's all predate the cars you mention. The glass roof as an example is a carryover from the Zonda which dates back to 1993. The interior is a step up from the Zonda’s, and let’s not forget that the Huayra initial designs were laid down in 1993, so that is a ten year gap over the Zonda. Pagani did the initial design work but he now employs a design team to help the details as the Huayra is a much more complex design. Too my knowledge he does not employ any ex Zagato designers. As for Pagani's profit margins you may want to add another zero to that number to get closer to the truth.
In conclusion mate I don’t want to clog up this thread with us going back and forth. If you want to discuss this anymore PM me and we can have a chat on the phone
I can’t cover all of your points at this time as I just don’t have the time, but here are a few. First the exhaust you see are not nessasaraly the ones that end up on the finished car. Pagani uses a number of parts that are just used for mock up and testing purposes, with the final parts being added just prior to delivery. This practise can be seen on a number of videos. Also as you well know ceramic and plasma coatings come in a number of colours so you may not being seeing what you think you are seeing.
Under floor aero, The Huayra is not a race, you might argue its less of a race car than the Zonda, I would say it’s a very fast GT. But it is longer than a Zonda therefore has a longer floor and wheel base and larger area so increasing down force as you say. Also please note like the early Zonda's this car does not have an aggressive splitter or diffuser, these were added when the CS and Cinque appeared. Expect similar upgrades in the Huayra's future
Now why should the Huayra be built to F1 standards, I know of no other car that is, also it’s not a practical proposition. As for being able to stand up to a 230 MPH crash, what do you mean by that? Because if you mean the concreat block head on test even F1 cars are not tested at that speed, even if the car did survive the driver certainly would not.
Your crash pictures are also very misleading. You cannot draw any conclusions from those pics unless you know all of the factors that lead up to those pics. The second picture you mention you say happened at 62 MPH, I think you may find that that accident actually happened at between 160mph and 190mph depending on which report you believe. Oh and both passengers walked away.
Other crashes have shown the cars coming apart in the way you describe they should, what I find interesting is that some of those have actually been rebuilt using the original tubs, probably the most famous being the Blue Zonda Uno
To my knowledge no one has ever died or suffered a serious injury in a Pagani crash.
Now to the Pagani design language, Pagani's design's all predate the cars you mention. The glass roof as an example is a carryover from the Zonda which dates back to 1993. The interior is a step up from the Zonda’s, and let’s not forget that the Huayra initial designs were laid down in 1993, so that is a ten year gap over the Zonda. Pagani did the initial design work but he now employs a design team to help the details as the Huayra is a much more complex design. Too my knowledge he does not employ any ex Zagato designers. As for Pagani's profit margins you may want to add another zero to that number to get closer to the truth.
In conclusion mate I don’t want to clog up this thread with us going back and forth. If you want to discuss this anymore PM me and we can have a chat on the phone
Tom73 said:
ph123 said:
I would be interested to learn from you Tom73 of where you see the flaws in the Pagani.
I absolutely concur with the conclusion that each car very much reflects the nationality that produces it.
Pagani - Italianate Fine Art Light, further inspiration from South American inhibition. Beauty, for the love of it.
Bugatti - German thoroughness, performance as described on tin. Must be 1000hp/400 kph ...
K'segg - Swedish heavy handed, brute force born of being in the dark half the time.
Interesting all.
So where's the truest epitome of a 'supercar hypercar' in all this?
Not so sure about "heavy handed, brute force" is a accurate way of describing the region that produces Veyron's Haldex AWD and Pagani's Öhlins dampers and SKF rear axle bearings. If Koenigsegg really was that heavy handed then surely Pagani wouldn't turn for technical support from suppliers that in turn asks Koenigsegg to help them testbed Pagani's parts? Getting 1140 hp out of a 5 litre engine quite obviously comes with a little more trickery than doing it with a 6, 6,3 or 8 litre engine as well. And the amount of innovation in the dynamic flow catalyctic converter system, response boost control, dihedral synchro-helix actuation doors, camless engines, chrono cluster, progressive z-style anti-roll bar, triplex suspension, aircore carbon wheels, bio fuel tech and so on also makes Pagani look a little bit kit car in comparison. Like a blinged out version of Hennessey and SSC. A heavy handed overuse of stickers, christmas lights and "exquisite" things like anodizing that are shared with other "exquisite" products like ricers and bicycles... I absolutely concur with the conclusion that each car very much reflects the nationality that produces it.
Pagani - Italianate Fine Art Light, further inspiration from South American inhibition. Beauty, for the love of it.
Bugatti - German thoroughness, performance as described on tin. Must be 1000hp/400 kph ...
K'segg - Swedish heavy handed, brute force born of being in the dark half the time.
Interesting all.
So where's the truest epitome of a 'supercar hypercar' in all this?
Pagani's flaws are plentyful and more so in the Huayra than the Zonda. The suspension is really not optimal for the track because they have fairly short wishbones which eqautes to more track deviation. The monocoque and the active wings as been mentioned are borderline eye candy. The aerodynamics is a little bit s
t. The exhausts are exposed titanium which raises underbonnet temperatures. The engine is shared with SL65's and albeit slightly modified and given an own number it's still a fairly basic, old engine that's been given Pagani's typical blinged out facelift to appear as something it's not. Other pet peeves would be things like the rims that Pagani promises will act like turbines but that have vanes that are angled to blow air into the brakes rather than sucking it out. You get the feeling that some engineer created them and then some slick italian designer bloke had a look at them and went "No, not like this! It looks better this way! Bellissimo!".
I mean, I could nitpick like this all day on things that just rubs me the wrong way and that I see as ill fitting to this type of car. They're like wooden Moggies, except they're claiming not to be. It's silly. They're basically invading a segment of cars that should be reserved for cutting edge performance and making a mockery of it with cheap "bling".
It's not so much that they're poor cars, because they're not, but if you're building a Spyker or a Moggie or a Aston Martin then sell it as such. If you're aiming at being the next Macca F1 then make sure it comes with a element of hyper. I'm well aware that some of the things mentioned as weaknesses may be seen as aesthetical strengths by those that do not agree with this performance sentiment of mine and that you do have to take into account that in order for them to make a profit there's a level of compromise to be had between the two extremes, but that doesn't necessarily mean I have to approve of Pagani's choices as a whole. I can appreciate that some will love Lady Gaga too, but it doesn't mean that I will have to agree that she's any good.
So don't get me wrong, I love christmas and I enjoyed a good game of pinball as much as the next bloke when growing up. And gold colours does indeed look the part. Those elements combined doesn't make a good hypercar though, imho.
And so the debate rages on. So Koenigsegg test beds Pagani parts then, so which exact parts are those then?
As for getting over 1100 HP out of a 5.0 engine, that's nothing new, Nelson racing engines having been building 1500hp twin turbo street engines for years, and having driven one I can attest to how great they are.
Now too that door mechanism, yes it makes for great street theatre, and was seen as the best solution to the fact the Eggs are so flipping wide. The problem is that if the kerb you park next too is just a little too high, i.e. like most in London, then the door hits the ground with a very embarrassing and expensive crunch, so how much will that touch up cost then....
Camless engines, again nothing new to see here, various manufactures have played with the idea. Yes the theory is good (infinitely variable valve timing etc etc) but don’t make it out to be a Koenigsegg innovation
The Chrono Cluster, yeah so what???
The Aircore Carbon wheels, last time I looked carbon did not dent well, so what happens when you kerb one?? Personally I would never drive a car with carbon wheels; an encounter with a decent pothole could be catastrophic
Now too the Huayra, we have already established that it is not a track car so why would it need a suspension systems optimised for the track? But on the flip side you do realise I hope that the Huayra suspension has been taken directly from the Zonda R with only the bushings being changed for street versions. And the last time I looked the Zonda R looked pretty handy on the track as various records would seem to bear out.
Lets for augment sake say the Exhaust is bare titanium, has it caused thermal problems? Well the answer is no so what is the problem?
The Pagani bling thing, that is just a finish and is down to the customer to decide if they want it or not. Personally I prefer the black anodised interior of the Cinque, Lewis Hamilton prefers his in purple. Also if you compare the Christmas tree look I think the Huayra and the Agera are about equal
You seem to have set yourself up as some kind of arbiter of what should or should not be classified as a hypercar and seem to take it personally that Pagani have proven to be more commercially successful than Koenigsegg.
The fact that both companies have chosen to go different ways in developing their cars should be celebrated, it is then down to us as consumers to decide which we prefer
Edited by Streetrod on Wednesday 18th July 13:43
What I'm looking forward too is an Agera/Huayra comparison test. Over the last few weeks the Pagani has been reviewed by all the English mags along with various associated videos and a number of continental ones too, and to a man the reviews have all been very positive. The Agera has actually been available for a lot longer but has if I remember rightly only been reviewed by Chris Harris and he was not that impressed. Koenigsegg's recent straight line record runs have been very impressive, but are no more impressive than a number of street legal dragsters I can think of, so why no road tests??
Gassing Station | Supercar General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff