Investment: 360 Challenge Stradale V 430 Scuderia V 993RS
Discussion
STiG911 said:
roygarth said:
Any views on which of the 3 will do better investment wise in years to come?
jackal said:
hazy said:
jackal said:
I'm no hero racing driver, just an ordinary guy who likes tactile cars and generally calls it how I see it.
As far as modern road cars go and regular manual boxes, the ones that spring to mind as being highly enjoyable have been the caterham 6 speed, 993 RS shift, Honda S2000, mazda MX5, Exige S2, Ferrari 355/360/430, peugeot 205 GTi, TRV griffith and the CTR as well. Semi Autos ? I simply dislike most of them in varying degrees.
If you honestly prefer the CS box to everything you've ever tried then all power to you. I have to say though that for someone who has done so much racing and who you would imagine celebrates that most magical of unions between man and machine, it's certainly curious and out of the ordinary that you would prefer a transmission that totally removes the driver from the process of driving and further diassociates him from the car. That said, if forced to pick a semi auto I'd take the Nissan GTr , at least it does the job properly rather than the 'work in progress' effort in the CS.
F1 and the majority of GT race cars run paddles, but you wouldnt know that only having driven a long sequence of fairly underwhelming cars. Go drive some proper stuff AT SPEED sonny then come back and talk.As far as modern road cars go and regular manual boxes, the ones that spring to mind as being highly enjoyable have been the caterham 6 speed, 993 RS shift, Honda S2000, mazda MX5, Exige S2, Ferrari 355/360/430, peugeot 205 GTi, TRV griffith and the CTR as well. Semi Autos ? I simply dislike most of them in varying degrees.
If you honestly prefer the CS box to everything you've ever tried then all power to you. I have to say though that for someone who has done so much racing and who you would imagine celebrates that most magical of unions between man and machine, it's certainly curious and out of the ordinary that you would prefer a transmission that totally removes the driver from the process of driving and further diassociates him from the car. That said, if forced to pick a semi auto I'd take the Nissan GTr , at least it does the job properly rather than the 'work in progress' effort in the CS.
Edited by jackal on Friday 30th August 20:02
Agree it will carry on up for next perhaps 12 months and then come back a bit - not 50% though.
Big difference between now and 1991/2 is that in 1991/2 speculators were borrowing at very high interest rates to buy, so had to panic sell when market turned...now people are buying with cash which was earning very low rates of interest so do not have to sell.
Who knows, it might all just start to slow down and drift sideways a for a few years....
But I'm not saying 'things are different this time'!
Big difference between now and 1991/2 is that in 1991/2 speculators were borrowing at very high interest rates to buy, so had to panic sell when market turned...now people are buying with cash which was earning very low rates of interest so do not have to sell.
Who knows, it might all just start to slow down and drift sideways a for a few years....
But I'm not saying 'things are different this time'!
Camlet said:
sone said:
Given the bull s
t written on these forums I'd wager the asking and paid prices for these cars are very different..
The dealers are playing some people like a fiddle!
Absolutely this. t written on these forums I'd wager the asking and paid prices for these cars are very different..The dealers are playing some people like a fiddle!
It's been said a hundred times you buy a car because you love to drive it. If you're lucky enough to have a bounce from buying a car that appreciates, marvellous. But it's luck. Nick Mason was complimented on how clever he was buying a 250 GTO. Mason hilariously brushed the compliment aside "if I was clever I'd have bought two".
The marketplace is extremely non transparent and layered with so much bull s
t that it can only be loosely termed a market. A Casino more like. And anyone thinking of reading the market is wasting their time, and will be played like a fiddle as sone rightly says. But it makes for fun forums. Edited by Camlet on Saturday 2nd August 08:12
Everyone involved has a vested interest in bulls
tting (including me!) The only thing we know for sure are the auction results. These are often much lower than the rumoured sale prices.LukeyLikey said:
As for the dealers, well, they will always be dealers (though the good ones usually deserve their reputations). They are like lawyers or accountants - doesn't matter about the state of the economy because people always argue and even losses need counting. House always wins.
A word of caution, particularly relevant if one is looking to sell on consignment. Many dealers, including a few prominent, went spectacularly bust when the market corrected in 91/92.LukeyLikey said:
I'm not sure I fully agree with this. There are some things that you can call - the general direction of movement of vehicles is often a strong probability. You can't exactly call when, or exactly how much.
I have a 12C. It will be a looong time before it is worth as much as I paid for it and I bought it pretty well. However, I knew it's general direction would not be positive and I still bought it - I liked it. I also bought a Stradale. I knew it's general direction would be the other way, though I would not have thought it would go as far and as fast as it has done. There may be periods where it drops, in line with a correction in the market, but there will also be periods where it goes up significantly. Over 20 years plus it will go up after adjusting for inflation, I'm pretty sure. How much and when, hard to say.
The reason is because it is from a brand that is highly desirable and will probably stay that way, it is a low production number vehicle and these days there are very few of those and it is a great car and one with a following.
No car will work if you only want it solely as an investment because it is not as easily tradable as shares, and the periods where the value is depressed are less predictable making it harder to plan an exit. However, if you want to own and/or drive a particular car then I believe it can be possible to work out with some confidence whether it will go well financially. For instance, LaFerrari would be a pretty safe bet as far as I can see. Within the next 5 years it may go below its retail price (still probably doubt that) but over 20 years I just don't see it not being a similar experience to 288 GTO, F40, F50, and Enzo at some point.
At a more affordable level there are examples too. I suspect a Speciale, as the last and best of the n/a V8 Ferrari line should do well, assuming its replacement is a turbo car. I think that long term an Alfa 8C could be good news (beautiful car, very old and famous historic brand, very low production) though I don't personally love it so couldn't buy one. I also suspect Testarossas will go well - Ferrari is really a 12 cylinder brand and the TR is last of the flat 12s. It is an iconic car and defined an era. The BMW Z8, when it was launched (I owned an M Roadster which was a big purchase for me at the time) I agonised over trying to get the money together for a Z8 - I was very sure it would have a strong long term value. I should have done it. It should continue too - it has something that the Speciale and Stradale don't; it is its own design.
I hate to say it but the RS 4.0 at the launch price was so obviously a licence to print money - famous racing brand, huge following, last, best and rarest of the manual, metzger, hydraulic steering GT cars. Even a 3.8 RS has a really good future IMV, despite current price levels. The ingredients are there in a way they may not be for the 991. I also think Carrera GT is one to think about.
I take the general point, which is that cars are better used than invested in, but I do think there is a pattern to the market, not fully logical as perhaps shares might be, but to a degree predictable. Paying no tax on cars that appreciate also makes a nice little bonus.
To answer the Nick Mason point, the reason you don't buy two is that true enthusiasts often extend themselves to buy the most expensive and desirable car they can and if there is money left over, they buy something else that is pointedly different. Buying two never crosses the mind, even though you do indeed know with some cars the experience is going to be better than with others.
As for the dealers, well, they will always be dealers (though the good ones usually deserve their reputations). They are like lawyers or accountants - doesn't matter about the state of the economy because people always argue and even losses need counting. House always wins.
On a general 'direction of market movement' point. In the current 'classic/rare sports' market everything is going up and has been doing so for several years. The call is how fast will a particular marque/model go up relative to the market. Like a bull run in the stock market. When the market turns (I have no idea when this will be) it will all turn. You won't see RS' carrying on up and 360CS going down.I have a 12C. It will be a looong time before it is worth as much as I paid for it and I bought it pretty well. However, I knew it's general direction would not be positive and I still bought it - I liked it. I also bought a Stradale. I knew it's general direction would be the other way, though I would not have thought it would go as far and as fast as it has done. There may be periods where it drops, in line with a correction in the market, but there will also be periods where it goes up significantly. Over 20 years plus it will go up after adjusting for inflation, I'm pretty sure. How much and when, hard to say.
The reason is because it is from a brand that is highly desirable and will probably stay that way, it is a low production number vehicle and these days there are very few of those and it is a great car and one with a following.
No car will work if you only want it solely as an investment because it is not as easily tradable as shares, and the periods where the value is depressed are less predictable making it harder to plan an exit. However, if you want to own and/or drive a particular car then I believe it can be possible to work out with some confidence whether it will go well financially. For instance, LaFerrari would be a pretty safe bet as far as I can see. Within the next 5 years it may go below its retail price (still probably doubt that) but over 20 years I just don't see it not being a similar experience to 288 GTO, F40, F50, and Enzo at some point.
At a more affordable level there are examples too. I suspect a Speciale, as the last and best of the n/a V8 Ferrari line should do well, assuming its replacement is a turbo car. I think that long term an Alfa 8C could be good news (beautiful car, very old and famous historic brand, very low production) though I don't personally love it so couldn't buy one. I also suspect Testarossas will go well - Ferrari is really a 12 cylinder brand and the TR is last of the flat 12s. It is an iconic car and defined an era. The BMW Z8, when it was launched (I owned an M Roadster which was a big purchase for me at the time) I agonised over trying to get the money together for a Z8 - I was very sure it would have a strong long term value. I should have done it. It should continue too - it has something that the Speciale and Stradale don't; it is its own design.
I hate to say it but the RS 4.0 at the launch price was so obviously a licence to print money - famous racing brand, huge following, last, best and rarest of the manual, metzger, hydraulic steering GT cars. Even a 3.8 RS has a really good future IMV, despite current price levels. The ingredients are there in a way they may not be for the 991. I also think Carrera GT is one to think about.
I take the general point, which is that cars are better used than invested in, but I do think there is a pattern to the market, not fully logical as perhaps shares might be, but to a degree predictable. Paying no tax on cars that appreciate also makes a nice little bonus.
To answer the Nick Mason point, the reason you don't buy two is that true enthusiasts often extend themselves to buy the most expensive and desirable car they can and if there is money left over, they buy something else that is pointedly different. Buying two never crosses the mind, even though you do indeed know with some cars the experience is going to be better than with others.
As for the dealers, well, they will always be dealers (though the good ones usually deserve their reputations). They are like lawyers or accountants - doesn't matter about the state of the economy because people always argue and even losses need counting. House always wins.
kbooker said:
There's no correct answer here, all 3 will do well in a bull market but it could all go tits up again, no-one actually knows....If I was in the OP's position I'd stick with what he's got
I'm the OP. 7 months ago I swapped the 993RS for a LHD 360CS putting the spare £40k on the deal in my pocket. Since then the CS has gone up £45k and the RS about £70K.I'd had the RS for 10 years and intend to keep the CS for a similar period. It will be interesting to see where the 2 cars values go.....
cayman-black said:
roygarth said:
leeGT2 said:
what about a LHD car. Im sure these will also go up in value and a much cheaper cash layout considering scud is only a very occasional car?
I always go LHD as over time LHD & RHD prices tend to come together..and as you say for an occasional use motor LHD is no problem.Gassing Station | Supercar General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff